How to tackle Skaven

[nXken]

Hey guys,

Prolly going up vs Skaven soon in a friendly game. Going to try and field 1500 points, no ETC.

How should I prioritize?

First try to snipe the Grey Seer and shoot at the artillery.

The Rat Ogres next

And for dessert i'll take down the big block...

Is that ok?

His artillery will include Poison Mortar, WarpLightning Cannon and Jezzeals.

I am most worried about the seer and the Jezzeals... I hate those pricks >.>

I was planning to take a lvl 4 on foot, get him some durability with his items
Waystalker
24 Glade guards (2x12)
Dryads (10 with champ)
5 WR (shields, full command, leadership banner)
5 WW (go with stalker)

Models still available:
1 Treeman (old metal and small)
1 Eagle
8 Unassembled GR (thinking to convert some sisters when i have the time)
1 Lord / Captain with bow and spear (and horns!)

[edmondj]

Hey there mate.

I would forget about sniping the seer. Your way stalker just doesn't have the necessary damage output for it. Better to snipe characters with less wounds and protection. If at all!

Apart from that you have a decent army frame there. HB arrows on the glade guard will help a lot against the high toughness. The treeman has low damage output but is very tough and stubborn on ld9. Ideal for blocking up the big unit the entire game, though you would like either a bsb reroll or a way to get him to ld10. Might I suggest an ancient? Less damage output but even more durable and can help back wounds with life magic.

Of course, you'll have to reconsider the lvl 4 then.

Anyways, the wild riders are amazing in tandem with the treeman. Hold the unit with the anvil then smash with the game

[nXken]

And seen they'll be in combat then, they cant be shot at by the Jezzeals

I am at work, so no AB with me to calculate...

1) If I go for an Ancient caster, can he cast in combat?
Then the Waystalker becomes a lvl 2 in a GG unit. Dark or Shadow...

The caster was supposed to become a Deathweaver for Purple Sun... But seen that I'll be taking an Ancient anvil, and the Weaver becomes a Singer, I am at a loss.

For GG, I was thinking 1 HBT and 1 Star or moonfire (i always mix them up)

Also challenged the local GW-staff, but as I don't own a BRB (i pirated a digital copy), they wont play me >.>

[nXken]

Got my list together and your advice is very much appreciated:

Still need to fill in the banners on the GG ...:
I was thinking banners to get some protection for the mages (rerolls, MR, .. something like that)

... and (most importantly) the lores on my Singers.
I've no idea what is the best lore for static casting... I am toying with Beasts...

1500pts (25% = 375)

Lord 310 pts
TreeMan Ancient
+Strangleroots
________________________________
Heroes - 370 pts
Spellsinger (in 1st GG unit)
lv 2
bow
HODA

Spellsinger (In 2nd GG unit)
lv 2
bow
D-scroll

Branchwraith (with Dryads)
________________________________
Core - 560 pts
11 GG
Full Command
Banner
HBT

11 GG
Full Command
Banner
TFA

10 Dryads
Nymph
_________________________________
Special - 150 pts
5 WR
Shields
Hunter
_________________________________
Rare - 110 pts
5 WW
Champ

[Slobber]

This is too much magic for 1500, IMO. I like the treeman he's very hard to kill. I'd recommend dropping a singer, and putting the HODA on a bsb, you'll get more value with bs 6. Shadow is great on a lvl 4 with a 2 it's okay. You're primarily taking it for the sig. Personally I'd recommend heavens, iceshard is amazing and there aren't 2 bad spells for you in the list.
Good luck!
If the BrB is holding you back, why don't you eBay up a copy of the small rules from the starter set? They go for like $25.

[nXken]

I am afraid of the Seer magicking my :ninja:donkey:ninja: off the board =/ does it show?

I can change a singer to a BSB sure... but I already have a big ld 10 bubble on the TMA... What's the use then?

Maybe take a Dancer and stick it with the dryads then? Or just a generic Captain with HODA and some armor...

Then I would have 2 life lvl 2 casters and lvl 2 on Heavens.

Could drop it entirely and field some scouts...

[edmondj]

Good morning nXken,


Some more feedback on your last list:

Ancient lvl 2: Excellent. As I suggested, maybe the best anvil in the game. Life magic is ok and yes, you can cast Flesh to Stone and other spells while already in combat. But not every spell so make sure you get at least one that is castable.
In the worst case, earthblood isn’t amazing, but will still increase your ward from 6++ to 5++ regeneration, which is good synergy with the ancient’s role.
I would strongly suggest dropping the strangleroots. It sounds like a cheap upgrade, but this alone gives you the points for those banners you were looking for. Your treeman is an anvil and as such should get into combat, hence unable to use the strangleroot. For a regular treeman (BS6) it may still be worth it even if you get to shoot once during the entire game. The ancient’s BS4 makes even that single shot far too unreliable.

Spellsinger lvl 2: Excellent. Life magic is ok, but the big problem is that it doesn’t fill any gap in our army list. With 5 waywatchers, armour will still be a big problem (though maybe not so much against skaven), so metal is a good choice for your list. Alternatively, if you can find space for a few more waywatchers (or again, if you’re only going to use this list against skaven), Beasts is good for your dryads or treeman or even glade guard if they get charged. Heaven is good for board control (though at a lvl 2 the big spells are probably a bit expensive) and dark is excellent in synergy with glade guards

2nd Spellsinger: Honestly? Not really convinced. A lot of points and with 4 mages you would just be fighting for power dice. I would drop this one and give the one you keep the dispel scroll (and nothing else)

The points this saves you could get you a bsb which is ok though in my opinion the wood elves are probably amongst the armies that need a bsb the least. But still, much better than a needless extra lvl 2. Also, the HoDA works much better on a bsb than on a lvl 2. Alternatively, you could include another unit altogether. Another glade guard, a unit of rangers or some wardancers. All good alternatives. The best options for you however would probably be a unit of war hawks or glade riders. They would both be invaluable in hunting down those jezzails.

Branchwraith: Good. Another channel dice, decent combat stats and cheap. Don’t forget that if necessary, the BW makes a good solo redirector. Your opponent will often not take this into consideration, but just let her run out of the unit and let her redirect. She’s not really excellent in the dryads, but still quite good there. If you somehow take a unit of ranger, she’ll be better there (earthblood is very good for those, for instance)

Your GG core is excellent. I would probably go for HB arrows over TF in this matchup, but either one is good.

The dryads are good at that unit size. I would probably drop the nymph and maybe increase the unit by one or two regulars. Just add an incomplete third rank. That way, the chance to disrupt the enemy is much higher. But keep it small! 12 is absolutely the maximum, as you want to profit from their 2 attacks.

The Wild Riders are good and the champ isn’t a bad choice for them. You’re only getting one extra attack, but it’s WS5 rerollable and S5 armour piercing, which is much better than an extra attack in a unit of dryads.

The way watchers are excellent. As I’ve mentioned before, against skaven you won’t need a lot of anti-armour, but in a more general approach, I would try to get another unit of five. Or increase the one you have to eight or such. The champ isn’t worth it though. You’re not even getting more shots, just a slightly better chance to hit on one of them.


So in short. I like the list. It’s good against skaven and even in general. Take metal if playing the empire or bretonnia (or probably if you play in a multi game tournament against unknown opponents). Take beasts or dark against skaven, O&G, &c.

But drop the second level 2 and add something else. Either a HoDA bsb or another unit.

Finally, tweak a little here and there (take out the champs for dryads and waywatchers and add banners) and you’re set to go!

[nXken]

but this alone gives you the points for those banners you were looking for.

I already calculated the 25 points allowance each time.
The unit with singer: lichbone (opens up 10 points)
Gleaming on the next? (opens up 20 points)

BSB with Razor Banner in the dryads (want to use those as flankers with the TMA)
+ Armor of Destiny

I can field GR, but nothing else (no models yet)
I was playing with this idea myself.

I'll get back to the drawing board and repost something tonight (or tomorrow)

[Aezeal]

Against not to heavily armoured T3 infantry (not sure what type of block he's putting on) you might consider swiftshivers?

[nXken]

Prolly Stormvermin with armor, shield and handweapon...

[ScottyDo]

If you're tailoring a list to go against Skaven, I wouldn't take any Glade Guard. I'd swap them for Eternal Guard. Glade Guard are costly, and shooting at cheap rats won't earn you much. Skaven are pretty slow (no cav), so you could dance around them with lots of fast cav, but I think you're better off hitting him in the front with the Ancient and the flanks with ranked infantry. I'd probably also put the Ancient to a level four and then drop all the other characters in 1500, but I tend to like lists with limited character allotments.

[Avian]

If he likes the storm banner true flights laugh at that thing jus leave the warhawks at home. That said, hagbanes are a better bet for hurting big gibblies like the bell, HPA and plague furnace.

[godswearhats]

I play Skaven as my other army, so my advice comes from both sides of the table. Here are a few bullet points to consider:

• Dwellers Below is a horrible spell for Skaven. 50% of any big block is wiped out.
• You will likely face the Storm Banner - Trueflight arrows are best in that case, but in general your shooting will do next to nothing against the rat blocks.
• If you expect to see a Hellpit Abomination, you should absolutely bring Starfire arrows or put the Banner of Eternal Flame on your Wild Riders. Even then, expect your Wild riders to die in close combat (you only average 5 wounds in close combat against the HPA before it would get to strike back - the mounts will likely finish off the HPA but they are the same initiative step.
• The best character to snipe in a Skaven army is the BSB.
• Take as few infantry as you can. He will likely try to turn them into Clanrats with The Curse of the Horned Rat (Dreaded 13th) spell.
• Treemen are excellent against Skaven because Skaven do not have high armor saves or toughness.
• Take at least one unit that can disrupt by charging in the flank. Don't be afraid to flank charge with Glade Guard as only a couple will die - just make sure you still have two ranks to negate his rank bonus.

Hope this helps,
~gwh

[nXken]

Thanks all for your advice. I'll post my updated list tomorrow when i'm at work

Issues: the models i field are 90% of what i own
No EG, no WWR, no warhawks, ...
Only 1 treeman, 5 wr and WW

In the new list i have no room for a stalker. I had to cut some stuff tot cram in 5 GR...

More on this after the nappy-break

[nXken]

So, new list:
Lords 290
TMA - 290
_______________________________________
Heroes 350
*Deathsinger - 80
lv 2 - 35
Bow - 5
Dispel Scroll - 25
Iron Curse - 5

*Branchwraith - 75

*Captain - 75
Enchanted Shield - 5
HODA - 30
Talisman of Protection - 15
______________________________________
Core 606
(Singer Unit)
11 GG - 132
Full Command - 30
Hagbane - 33
Lichbone Pennant - 15

(Captain unit)
11 GG - 132
Swiftshiver - 33

(Branchwraith unit)
11 Dryads - 121

5 GR - 95
Hagbane - 15
_________________________________
Special 150
5 WR - 130
Hunter - 10
Shields - 10
__________________________________
Rare 100
5 WW - 100

EDIT: EXPECTATIONS
We'll be playing 1500 points (otherwise my list would be quite inappropriate)
No End Times rulings. Prolly Standard encounter.
I expect him to bring:
Jezzeals
Warmachines (lightning cannon, flamethrower, globe mortar)
I think 1500 is a bit low to bring a Furnace or Bell

He has no HPA (that I know of)

He has Ratogres, clanrats and stormvermin.

I also expect Queek, Snikkitch or an assassin with the cloak that gives penalties to shoot.
He'll also bring a named engeneer and a seer.

[CauCaSus]

You can easily avoid and chaff his blocks. Jezzails will panic if you sneeze at them. Rat ogres are very soft for their pts cost, so shoot them as well a long with all the weapon teams and artillery.

Honestly, just ignore the blocks if you can, the pts are in his toys. A three wide unit of wild riders can kill his grey seer on a charge, but you risk losing them for little gain

[godswearhats]

Sounds like he plays Skaven wrongly, and is going too heavy on non-infantry blocks. At 1500 points, I would never field less than 100 rats, and would aim to get as close to 150 as possible (10 rats per 100 points is my rule of thumb).

Chaff/avoid his blocks, and take out everything else. You'll get a minor victory pretty easily.

[nXken]

Scope just changed... He'll be fielding 3k and i LL play a double >.>

But the list makes sense?

[Arwen]

The issue with Grey Seers is the Dreaded 13th which will take off small units of archers such as Way Watchers so try to keep the WE infantry over 24"s from the Bell and shoot the Grey Seer off the top before he 13ths too many units.

Other nasty Spells are Plague with a shorter range and Scorch (template).

As mentioned suiciding a small unit of Wild Riders into the Bell and directing all the attacks onto the Seer should do it. By getting rid of the Rats Magic and General then you are well on the way to winning the game. Note: You get no victory points for killing the Seer you also need to kill the Bell which can be more difficult.

[nXken]

So you can just do that? Charge the Bell and say: all wounds to the seer... Gtfo

[Arwen]

An experienced Skaven player however will not let you charge the front of the Bell as they will angle it away from potential charges (you can only attack the Bell from the front arc) or re-direct you with rat darts.

[nXken]

Gold tip i'll try to write up a nice bat rep

[Arwen]

The Grey Seer will usually be armed with the Fencers Blades WS10, so the WR's will hit on 4's with re-rolls and wounding on 2's on the charge.

Do not have a champion or character in the WR's that charge the Bell as the Grey Seer can then challenge to reduce attacks on himself. Also the Grey Seer will have a 4+ Ward Save from the Bell and Skalm to heal back wounds if he doesn't die in 1 combat round. He may also have Dragonbane Gem for a 2+ vs. Flaming attacks (so don't use Banner of Eternal Flame on this unit).

Another issue is having to maximize models in base contact when you charge so you may only get to attack the Seer with 3 or 4 Wild Riders. So you may need a unit of 6+ WR's.

You may lose a unit of Wild Riders but its worth it if you kill the Seer and it happens on turn 1 or 2 of a game .

[Mollesvinet]

Champions can decline challenges without any consequences. Adding a champion gives one more attack to take out the filthy rat, but probably isn't worth the points in most cases.

Getting rid of general and BSB is alpha and omega against skaven. Cannons, abombs and doomwheels should also be cleared as soon as possible. Once the general is dead, most blocks can be beaten in combat pretty easily even if they are steadfast.

[CauCaSus]

The issue with Grey Seers is the Dreaded 13th which will take off small units of archers such as Way Watchers so try to keep the WE infantry over 24"s from the Bell and shoot the Grey Seer off the top before he 13ths too many units.

Staying out of range is hard when he can march 10" and have 360 degrees los from the bell. Maybe have the WR threaten to charge his bell if he does? OTOH he might screen the bell unit with slaves.