High Elves

[Aezeal]

I'm gonna play vs Tombking next thursday. Since time is limited and I don't know that army very well I'd like some info on what I can expect. Also I'd like to know what you would bring against them. (it's 1500 points btw)

[Slobber]

I'm not sure what exactly you'll see. They have the second best archers in the game hitting always on 5's, a number of high T monsters with low/no armor saves, chariots, some interesting casters and a bound spell/warmachine/PD generator. I'd bring a waystalker if you can snipe the general out the whole army crumbles. As the whole army can't march I'd field an all fast cav/ skirmisher list with trueflight and hagbane arrows. Maybe something like;
Lvl4 4+, scroll, steed
waystalker
5x GR trueflight mus and gleaming pedant
5x GR trueflight mus
5x GR trueflight mus
5x scouts hagbane
5x scouts hagbane
5x scouts hagbane
8x sot mus banner litchbone
5x wild riders w/ shields
5x waywatchers

You could run any lore you wanted, I'd recommend death, shadow or high in that order.

[Aezeal]

I only have 7 horses (old glade riders) and those will have to become wild riders so going mass GR isn't an option I fear.

Are their generals a bit vulnerable ? I don't know any stats but my guess would be like T5 and 3 wounds min.

[Slobber]

I think the caters are t4, but don't have my book handy to check.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer/Tacti ... Tomb_Kings

Can give you an idea of what your facing.
You can adjust the above list by swaping glade guard for the riders, but then I'd also find room for a pair of eagles.

[Aezeal]

Basicly removing the characters is still a good idea.
Can I killing blow them with my Hawks and wardancers?

I guess I'll need hagbane scouts for the possible catapults and the chariots.

Should I get hagbane on my gladeguard or would trueflight be better. I read a lot about weak skellies but those tombguards and necro somethign Knights seem nasty. Yeah very expensive at 11 points (wtf we hardly have anything cheaper).

I guess I'll be using my ASF + I rerolling a bit more than vs the darkelves though...

[astorre]

TK are WE worst matchup I think. If they bring 60+ archers you're in bad shape. Wild riders, warhawks, and glade riders are your friends. bring those archers to combat. poison scouts for sphinxes and war machines. shoot the chariots, fight the archers.

[bjoernuhlig]

sniping the Hierophant (not: General), the highest level mage must run their own lore, sniping this guy is a very good idea. but not necessary. he has T4, no armor, and maybe-probably 4++.
purple sun is boss, due to low I
I can see a dryad horde making sense.
poison arrows, on gg and gr are key to snipe the big monsters with their low armor saves. baneshooting the casket (they always bring it) is key to regain some control over the magic phases (!!! this is the most important factor. Kill the casket, with your GR in turn 2, put hagbane on them. bring enough to make 3 Wounds. this thing is giving him the edge in magic.)
expect 9-12 PD each magic phase. bring not only scroll but bring staff of sorcery to hae +5 to dispel, and add that staff that gives you +d6 to dispel once. you will need it. thats 3 arcane items, I recommend a lvl 1 shadowsinger for the signature spell (drop that on his archers and they hit on 6s. they have the special rule to hit on 5s always, thats what people think anyway. the rule explicitly states the use their unmodified BS (which is 2). use miasma (does it stack?) on them and he needs to use BS 1 (bring even 2 lvl1 shadowssingers). this will break his neck if he brings archers. stuff like frostwind doesnt work on them, -1 to hit mods don't affect their archers. only negative BS mods.

So, kill the casket, deny the archers shooting with miasma, bring down the High T machines and monsters with poison, and controll your dispel-phase (you know what I mean when you see him casting 5 spells with 2 dice each). Then, you can play with his big blocks (he cant march/is the slowest army in the game) even a dryad horde can dance with them.
Be careful with remains in play spells like withering, he can dispel them easy with a cheap item and he generates PD with that as well! Shadow is overall great, pit of shades will destroy his big skellie-units (Ini of 2)

I play TK myself, so I know what I am talking about.

[nXken]

Lol! Thx bjoern awesome read

[Aezeal]

Thanks or those pointer bjoernuhlig.

a few points for discussion:

1. In 1500 points you ask me to bring 3 arcane items and several mages.. that seems a bit much.

2. I'm not convinced about the part about miasma, at least not about how you've written it: If it's unmodified BS then modifying the BS with miasma wouldn't do much would it? Or do their rules say unmodified to hit (like our trueflight) then lowering BS would be usefull.

3. With end times he can march near his general I have read.

My idea's so far:

Anyway if he brings big blocks I will just avoid them or tie them up with cheap units (5 WD assassins to KB the character or eagles)

I have about 8 WW, 6-7 scouts and 3 metal archers which I could use/proxy as WW or scouts.. I guess I'll be needing the hagbane so I guess I'll go 50-50 on those (9 WW and 9 scouts).
I think I'll be getting 2x3 warhawks do deal with any left over catapults or chariot (charging a chariot with 3 warhawks is a good idea I think, at least better than letting it charge my).

With his archers I do fear my 5-7 wildriders will be hiding half the game again and ending up nog being usefull.. any idea's about this?
Then I have 32 GG which I guess I'll have to use (lacking other core atm).

I guess I"ll take the shadow mage for pit and maybe a level 1 mage (shadowdancer?)

maybe 2x 5 wardancers.
and 2 eagles (or maybe that is overkill with the 6 warhawks?)

[Slobber]

2. I'm not convinced about the part about miasma, at least not about how you've written it: If it's unmodified BS then modifying the BS with miasma wouldn't do much would it? Or do their rules say unmodified to hit (like our trueflight) then lowering BS would be usefull.

His shooting works just like trueflight arrows, so if you drop BS you change his to hit, as you're effecting his skill it's not a modifier to hit

3. With end times he can march near his general I have read.

That's just dirty! Will you get all the special end times rules too? Having killed units comeback as zombies and so forth?

[Aezeal]

good to know about his archers... if he has a lot of them I I will need to half their effect

not sure if he's going to use end time rules but can I say he can't? Those things like end times are not very clear to me. Are they just accepted rules or do you need to agree on playing with them?

[bjoernuhlig]

Just like Slobber says: Unmodified bs means he doesnt care about +/- to hit mods like frostwind. But what lowers his bs like Miasma is a killer. Its like they have trueflight but with BS 2, exactly.

1500, thats small. One Mage will have to do, make it Shadow? Hard to get Pit of Shades though.
40 Skellies are 80 slaves, so expect lots of troops. 40 archers are 120 slaves. Small games like that are hard for WE. In small games the expensive units really hurt if you lose them. Miasma is still great. He cant march (Undead Legion Rules really only apply if both sides agree, which means YOU COULD BRING 50% LORDS and Heros as well, and you can use Lore of Undeath etc.), so Miasma on his Skellies drops him to M3 M2 or M1 ( ) thats right. M1 no march.

No need for WW. Use them as GG Proxies or poison scouts to kill his war machines (If you blow up the casket (in turn 1 would be great) it explodes and spreads D6 S6 hits on all (ALL, enemy and friend) units within 12''.
WW... What would they be for? He has no Armorsaves to speak of (only NecroKnights have a 3+, they can be avoid or Pit'd. and they are to expensive in small games). Warhawks are good for war machines. Not good for monsters.

5 WD only to kill his Priest is a bit expensive in 1500 games as well. Still viable. If he dies you have half the game in your pocket. Bring 6 to maximize hits (Thats 10 to hit rolls). Its about 100 Points. Sacrifice an Eagle as well into the priest, just to make sure.

Concerning WR: his Archers shot 24 plus 4 inch walking distance, thats 28''. If he casts his movement spell they have an effective range of 32. Beware if he has that spell.

What units do you have? The GG could go into one big one small unit. 22 plus mage, and 10 with poison. 22 with trueflight. I would put the metall archers in the 10er unit. 13 have a higher chance of roling 6s. Scouts with banearrows as well.
If he brings chariots, watch out for those. They are as dangerous as other chariots, but if you kill some, dont wonder if they are ressurected instantly. The healing powers the TK have work best on chariots (poor as they are).

One lvl 3/4 with scroll and a bsb might be all you can afford. In my small games I play against gobos I always have the problem of having to little troops compared to his mass armies.

[Slobber]

If you post an inventory of what models you've got I'll do my best to help you out with a list.

[Aezeal]

So next up are some high elves.. I think he's going to come with a frost Phoenix a least, I think I saw it 3 weeks ago on the table when he played.

How to deal with those? Just Hagbane it out of the sky?
I figure other good troops he's got are his cavalry, and I doubt my 8 WW are enough to deal with them all.
What else should I fear?

What T do boltthrowers have when I shoot at them?

[Phil Rossiter]

Poison is pretty good vs Phoenixes. RBT T7 but again Hagbane is effective here.

Magic Missiles could be an issue, especially if he's bringing High Magic. Monster spam lists can be a problem. A lot of HE players bring a big Silver Helm bus. Even without loads of Waywatchers you might shoot it up but it might have World Dragon and it depends how many other threats he's got going forward.

[Aezeal]

Poison is pretty good vs Phoenixes. RBT T7 but again Hagbane is effective here.

Magic Missiles could be an issue, especially if he's bringing High Magic. Monster spam lists can be a problem. A lot of HE players bring a big Silver Helm bus. Even without loads of Waywatchers you might shoot it up but it might have World Dragon and it depends how many other threats he's got going forward.

Yeah I figured I would need waywatchers for his Worlddragon. But I only have like 16 models for WW and/or scouts. For the RBT I need the scouts, ww useless, for the banner cav or any other cav I need waywatchers. Of course I could go hunting the RBT with the 6 warhawks I intend to bring... but I doubt the Phoenix will allow that.
If I deploy in lines I will probably get less hit by the RBT.. but my warhawks will not like their D3 wounds. If they charge them they will probably get at least 1 hit too though.

The pheonix is T6 right, what armor save does it have? or even ward save?

and:

a RBT can pivot and shoot.. but it does have to see me in the front arc to shoot? Can I fly to the flank arc and be save from getting shot with my WH and then charge the next turn?

[NonnoSte]

and:

a RBT can pivot and shoot.. but it does have to see me in the front arc to shoot? Can I fly to the flank arc and be save from getting shot with my WH and then charge the next turn?

I think this is one of the most debated issues about Line of Sight for warmachines. I'm curious about this too.
Phoenixes have 5+ SS and a 5+ WS too.

[Aezeal]

and:

a RBT can pivot and shoot.. but it does have to see me in the front arc to shoot? Can I fly to the flank arc and be save from getting shot with my WH and then charge the next turn?

I think this is one of the most debated issues about Line of Sight for warmachines. I'm curious about this too.
Phoenixes have 5+ SS and a 5+ WS too.

Well I can find that single models can pivot as much as they like but not that front arc is not needed. Else you can't even flank them.

[NonnoSte]

OK, but when pivoting, are they treated as if they moved? Can they shoot?

[Aezeal]

If they pivot they can shoot, but it does count as moving the rules say on brb 27. But since they need to be in the front arc anyway you can shoot at them w/o pivoting really. Not sure if there are other rules concerning this thouhg.. I've not found them yet.
Wait that is not correct.
THey can pivot in the movement phase. Then in the shooting phase they can shoot at whatever is in their front arc. Count as having moved, but except for boltthrowers that won't matter much. Which means... that my warhawks will be target practice for whatever they want to attack...then again only 2 can go melee a warmachine anyway so if 1 dies it's not that bad

[NonnoSte]

No, wait, all war machines (bolt throwers included) have the rule Move or Shoot (BRB in war machines section)
Then, if they're condidered as if they moved, does it mean they cannot shoot after pivoting?

[Aezeal]

No, wait, all war machines (bolt throwers included) have the rule Move or Shoot (BRB in war machines section)
Then, if they're condidered as if they moved, does it mean they cannot shoot after pivoting?

Can you give me a page numbers because I don't see that.

[Baardah]

I believe there is a sentence saying warmachines are move or fire, hove ever they can still pivot on the spot to point towards their target or something like that.

[Phil Rossiter]

Pg 109 "(this [pivot] doesn't count as moving)"

So most play that a war machine can effectively shoot all round. I have seen it argued recently on TWF that this pivot only happens after acquiring the target, which would thus have to initially lie in forward arc. I've never seen anyone actually play it this way though and lack of a base makes exact angles problematic.

[NonnoSte]

I found this discussion on the empire forum:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/in ... ic=44343.0

It looks like it's unclear as a rule (no surprise with GW rules), but I have always seen it played as 360° line of sight for war machines.
I honestly don't know. With HE I tend to place RBT in the corners so they don't have this problem.