Avoidance lists, tactics and strategies

[Idols11]

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting - Sun Tzu"

So basically I am thinking about running an avoidance list, it seems to be how WE should be played at least in fluff terms.

I have no real experience playing WE in this edition, so please correct me if I get something wrong, and please add your opinions to this thread.

Basically an avoidance list is designed to never get into a combat you dont want to be in, (ie the WE player will always be charging, never charged)
secondly it is designed to wear the enemy down with lots of shooting.

The unit choices: here are the unit I think are best for playing this type of list:

Good units:
Cav: Glade Riders, Wild Riders, Sisters
Shooting: Waywatchers, Deepwood Scouts
Flying: Eagles, Warhawks

Bad units: Everything else

You will note that every unit is either fast cav, skirmishers, or flying. This allows you to run rings around your opponent, never getting caught by the enemy.

Archer priority: Try to kill enemy shooting units first, they have a chance of hurting you. once their missile units are gone, you can shoot them with impunity.
Secondly go for their cav or fliers. Use WW to kill heavy armoured knights (like brets, empire or chaos knights who have 2+ saves) and use normal arrows on light cav/skirmishers.



Now I will look at some tactics:

The redirect: Use an eagle to redirect a unit so that you can either flank charge it, or shoot it up. Position the eagle in front of a unit at an angle, then flee when charged. The enemy unit is forced to move at an angle, or if it catches the eagle and kills it, the enemy unit will still be out of position.

*edit* It may be better to stand and die with the eagle (see post below)

Hagbane arrows: Useful for killing monsters or warmachines.
Wild Riders: Our only real combat unit. Use these to finish off units already weakened by shooting. On the Charge they have 5 attacks per model! (3 S5 AP, and 2 S4)

And thats all I can think of just now. Please contribute to this thread with more tactics pls.

[Phil Rossiter]

Fleeing with a redirecting eagle is very tricky. It can work but firstly you may risk the charging unit redirecting onto another target. Secondly, if it gets away the eagle has to spend it's next turn stationary, unlike Sisters or GR's. Thirdly, if it gets caught, the enemy unit has not only advanced but has a good chance to reform as well.

It's generally much safer to stand and die with the eagle.

[Idols11]

Fleeing with a redirecting eagle is very tricky. It can work but firstly you may risk the charging unit redirecting onto another target. Secondly, if it gets away the eagle has to spend it's next turn stationary, unlike Sisters or GR's. Thirdly, if it gets caught, the enemy unit has not only advanced but has a good chance to reform as well.

It's generally much safer to stand and die with the eagle.

Ok thanks for that, I didnt know it was better to lose the eagle.

How would you redirect with Glade Riders?

[UKlvrBM]

Warhawks are also a great combat unit and screen for your wild riders. Auto include in my armies.

[Phil Rossiter]

Standing and dying isn't always better but the eagle is cheap and you get more control. The enemy basically has to choose between advancing 1" and Reforming, or 2D6" in the wrong direction with no Reform.

Redirecting with GR's is not as easy as with other Fast Cav because they're unlikely to be in the right area early game, due to Ambush. If they are you sit them a few inches back. Close enough to prevent the enemy unit marching freely but far enough away to likely outrun the charge.

A further tactic is the double flee. You line up two units of Fast Cav (say) in front of the enemy unit. He charges and your first unit flees through your second unit. This has to take a Panic test but if BSB is within 12" should be fine. If the enemy now chooses not to redirect or fails his Ld test to do so he has a failed charge. If he successfully redirects, your second unit flees back through the first one. The enemy is not allowed to redirect back onto the original target, so fails the charge.

In either case, GR's or Sisters who've fled and escaped have an excellent chance to rally and function as normal next turn, thanks to the Feigned Flight rule.

[NonnoSte]

Wath lores do you rate the most when running avoidance?

Obviously Shadow is great, as usual, helping to control movements and enhancing our shooting.
But I think that anything that allows you to counter enemy's fast units has to be taken in account.
I really liked Bogi's Light "cav" Council since it provides good range threats alongside Pha's decent protection and Net of Amyntok, both good to save points or block opponent's units.
Heavens is a good answer to flying troops and castles which are problematic for avoidance IMO.
Probably even Fire has its use here.

[astorre]

I like death with pure avoidance. With a Shadowsinger to drop their initiative before you roll a sun down the lines.
Dark is also good, and a timely shroud can win games in itself.

[Idols11]

What about using wardancers as redirectors? A unit of 5 is only 75 pts, thats only 25 more than an eagle. If they get into combat they can probably kill a few models with killing blow, or maybe even kill a character, and make back some of their points.

The only disadvantage I can see is they are infantry, M5, so they are slower than an eagle.

[Phil Rossiter]

They're a decent shout for redirection. I find if you deploy such units centrally you can usually get them where you need them. But it pays to have an eagle or two as back-up.

[Yojimbo]

A quick noob question I've been wondering about. In the BRB it states that models with the Fly special rule move on the ground when trying to flee. They therefore use their normal movement value. For an Eagle this is 2. Doesn't that mean that they are not really that great for redirecting?

[astorre]

A quick noob question I've been wondering about. In the BRB it states that models with the Fly special rule move on the ground when trying to flee. They therefore use their normal movement value. For an Eagle this is 2. Doesn't that mean that they are not really that great for redirecting?

Fortunately when fleeing you roll 2d6 to determine how far you flee, which due to the Eagle's Swiftstride rule is 3d6 drop the lowest.
Moving on the ground would matter as far as terrain and enemy units causing dangerous terrain tests, they can't fly over them.
I will say thougj that fleeing with Eagles is almost always worse than holding.

[Slobber]

I will say thougj that fleeing with Eagles is almost always worse than holding.

I think it depends, If you can set up a double flee with eagles it can be worth it. I don't like giving free reforms and it can really suck to have an eagle hold on their turn and die on yours giving a "free" charge. They are great throw away units at 50 points and certainly should be fed to frenzied units or anything forced to overrun, but when deciding to hold or flee I try to think about the worse case, and often fleeing is the correct choice.

[astorre]

True, I guess it depends if they can redirect or not. I usually let them die because even if your Eagle rallies its out of the game for a turn

[Phil Rossiter]

I have fled with eagles but rarely.

Had a game recently with a redirector blocking the enemy and my Wild Riders menacing his flank. He should have killed it, reformed and taken a frontal charge. Instead the redirector survived and the WR's went into his flank. Worse still, a character was still in base contact with said redirector and couldn't Make Way to fight the WR's.

If the eagle Flees he has to be some distance away to have good odds of escaping because 2d6", even with Swiftstride, is usually clearly less than the enemy's M+2d6". If doing this kind of 'march blocking' thing it really helps to be Fast Cav because of Feigned Flight. Usually a redirecting eagle wants to be 1" from the enemy to completely block off charges. Double Flee can work here but as said, Fast Cav are preferable for this.

[FriedTaterExplosion]

I have fled with eagles but rarely.

Had a game recently with a redirector blocking the enemy and my Wild Riders menacing his flank. He should have killed it, reformed and taken a frontal charge. Instead the redirector survived and the WR's went into his flank. Worse still, a character was still in base contact with said redirector and couldn't Make Way to fight the WR's.

If the eagle Flees he has to be some distance away to have good odds of escaping because 2d6", even with Swiftstride, is usually clearly less than the enemy's M+2d6". If doing this kind of 'march blocking' thing it really helps to be Fast Cav because of Feigned Flight. Usually a redirecting eagle wants to be 1" from the enemy to completely block off charges. Double Flee can work here but as said, Fast Cav are preferable for this.

Sometimes, it should be pointed out, you might want to flee AND be caught. It can help draw a big bad unit well away from where they want to go.

[Phil Rossiter]

That's true.

There are complications though. It's possible the redirector gets away and the charge fails. If it's caught, the unit makes ground and has a good chance of reforming to face a charge. Contrast with a unit charging a standing eagle. If that wants to move more than 1" there is no reform and flank charging it is a lot easier.

[Idols11]

What do people think is the best arrow choice for avoidance lists? It seems trueflight might be useful because units will always be moving to avoid the enemy,

[Phil Rossiter]

Trueflight is very popular and effective.

Hagbane is useful for dealing with high toughness but you can partly handle that with spells like Withering and Soulblight.

Some kind of Flaming shooting to deal with Regen is helpful but maybe not essential.

[NonnoSte]

It looks like TFA, when you have at disposal spells like those two are the deadliest in any circumstance.
Looking at the table of magic arrows sticked in the Pool of Enlightenment, TFA seems to really fall behind HBT only against T5+ if you factor in a -1 to hit (very common) and those spells quickly fix that.

[Phil Rossiter]

As we're discussing avoidance lists I agree because most of the problems with Trueflight are solved simply by shot volume. For a combat list I like Hagbane because there are T6 & T7 targets that urgently need dealing with and you only have so many shots.

[Idols11]

So basically Hagbane or Trueflight seems to be the consensus.

What about Waywatchers for dealing with Knights? They ignore saves and have BS5...they are quite powerful

[NonnoSte]

I think that no one mentioned them just because anyone assumed they were a given.
They are the only reliable answer we have to armor other than Metal magic.
I think that any list I've seen until now includes at least one unit of them, at any point level.

[Arwen]

I have been running 2 x 8 Waywatchers and played Lizardmen and Ogres, they were pretty useful killed a Cowboy (Scar Vet on Cold One), and Salamander and a Scraplauncher as well as some chaff.

[Arwen]

I have been running 2 x 8 Waywatchers and played Lizardmen and Ogres, they were pretty useful killed a Cowboy (Scar Vet on Cold One), and Salamander and a Scraplauncher as well as some chaff.