New level of wraithstar

[Morewar]

Is it legal for me to put 4 branch wraiths in the front rank then 5 wide EG afterwards? Since 4X25=100mm just like 5X20=100mm. Am I on to something or am I just a wishful thinking noob?

[seanr]

Unfortunately no. Each character must be a multiple of the base sizes. That would be awesome though.

[mjHession]

I never thought of this, but as I read it now, it seems unclear. It states that if a character does not fit in "neatly" then you are to place it on the side. 4 branch wraiths would fit neatly, so you could argue there is no problem. Then however there would be an issue would be what do you do once one dies.

I see no reason you can not have them join the unit, the question is how do you place them. And the answer to that question may determine if it is worth it or not.

[Maeglin]

Too late for me to look it up now but I think it wouldn't be allowed due to you not having a complete front rank but then having a complete second rank of the same unit type. Your second rank according to the game mechanics would actually be larger. If it was allowed you could have things like the old Bretonnian Lance and Arrow formation from 4th/5th edition again.

[mjHession]

Yeah, so I guess that would mean you'd have to place 2 wraiths on each side of the unit?

[Beithir Seun]

Yeah, so I guess that would mean you'd have to place 2 wraiths on each side of the unit?

Unfortunately, that's not possible either, again due to the incompatibility of the base sizes. You would be able to place a maximum of one Branchwraith "attached" to the side of the front rank. The other Branchwraiths would not be able to join the unit, due to not being able to fit within the unit or beside the front rank.

[seanr]

I never thought of this, but as I read it now, it seems unclear. It states that if a character does not fit in "neatly" then you are to place it on the side. 4 branch wraiths would fit neatly, so you could argue there is no problem.

Actually it's perfectly clear. The exact wording from the book:

If a character's base is larger than one model, but has exactly the same size are (or "footprint") as two or more models, simply displace those models to the back rank and position the character in their place.

Branchwraiths don't have a base size that is a multiple of Eternal Guard, and as such don't fit neatly. The fact there's four of them doesn't make a difference.

[mjHession]

Actually it's perfectly clear.

...The fact there's four of them doesn't make a difference.

Well, what is perfectly clear to someone isn't always perfectly clear to another. Otherwise we wouldn't need the Pool of Enlightenment. What made it unclear to me was that sure three BWs do not fit neatly, but add that fourth and now there is a magic neat fit.

Apparently I'm wrong, that's fine. But perfectly clear it was not.

[seanr]

I apologise if I offended, that wasn't my intent. The part of the rules you were referring to are not, I agree, clear. I was referring to the previous section where it makes clear what fitting "neatly" entails.

[Rogue Sun]

Pretty sure the words "perfectly clear" should never be used in reference to GW rules unless they are prefaced with the words "are not".

[Morewar]

Too late for me to look it up now but I think it wouldn't be allowed due to you not having a complete front rank but then having a complete second rank of the same unit type. Your second rank according to the game mechanics would actually be larger. If it was allowed you could have things like the old Bretonnian Lance and Arrow formation from 4th/5th edition again.

I don't think that matters since by, for example, putting a chaos lord on deamonic mount in a unit of warriors, the front rank would contain only 4 models(lord+command) but they would still get rank bonus and steadfast, and it's a legal formation. The only thing stopping the BW is the "neatly fitting" and "base size multiple" thing, which I find unclear enough to warrant questioning. But I wouldn't blame opponent for calling it illegal.

[Maeglin]

Ah but in your example it would be two different unit types, monstrous cavalry and infantry. And the monstrous mount would complete the front rank. The branchwraiths are still infantry and so require 5 models to complete the rank. In my understanding anyway.

[mjHession]

Ah but in your example it would be two different unit types, monstrous cavalry and infantry. And the monstrous mount would complete the front rank. The branchwraiths are still infantry and so require 5 models to complete the rank. In my understanding anyway.

Yeah, I think this is right. Which is why I love the times I'm playing with my RPG group where the general agreement is Fluff > Rules. Screw the rules, if I have a good reason for 4 Branchwraiths to be leading a block of Eternal Guard then it shall be so. Alas, this is not always the best (fairest) way to play.

[sunstrider]

well if you are really into fluff > rules, then those branchwraiths should be leading a huge unit of dryads. Their magical support (via lore of life) would turn the dryads from an underwhelming unit to T6 models with a 6++ ward and a 5+ regen. That sounds delicious to me, and I'm more than tempted to test it for myself.

Think about it, a 30 man unit of dryads would run you 340 + 3 branchwraiths at 225 would be tough to take down in combat alone. Those spells, power/dispel dice and spell effects would be awesome.

[mjHession]

Their magical support (via lore of life) would turn the dryads an underwhelming unit to T6 models with a 6++ ward and a 5+ regen.

If only they were still S4... Maybe I'll just pretend they are :P

[monkey10120]

If you bumped the BW up to 5 models and put them in the front rank I see no reason while that could not work.

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How is exm. 1 Much different than exm. 2? With 5 BW it would be equal to the 5 EG with a BW in the front rank on the side the way models with different base sizes are supposed to be placed. I would say if you have 5 BW go for it because it is still following the rules but if you have 4 then no because you still need to have a complete rank.

[Beithir Seun]

If you bumped the BW up to 5 models and put them in the front rank I see no reason while that could not work.

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How is exm. 1 Much different than exm. 2? With 5 BW it would be equal to the 5 EG with a BW in the front rank on the side the way models with different base sizes are supposed to be placed. I would say if you have 5 BW go for it because it is still following the rules but if you have 4 then no because you still need to have a complete rank.

No, that's not how it works. The rule refers to each character individually, not as a "group" of characters. Each individual Branchwraith is on a 25mm base. 25mm does not fit in a unit of 20mm bases, and so must be "attached" to the side of the front rank. Then you try to add the second Branchwraith to the unit; same problem - 25mm does not fit in a unit of 20mm bases. You've already got one character attached to the side of the front rank, so there is now no room for a second character. Nor will there be room for a third, fourth or fifth Branchwraith.

The number of models in a rank is, frankly, irrelevant and has no bearing on whether characters can fit in the unit. For the record, you don't *have* to have ranks that are five models wide, it's just that you won't get rank bonuses if the unit is less than five models wide. That doesn't change a thing when it comes to whether characters can join units.

[monkey10120]

If you bumped the BW up to 5 models and put them in the front rank I see no reason while that could not work.

1)
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2)
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How is exm. 1 Much different than exm. 2? With 5 BW it would be equal to the 5 EG with a BW in the front rank on the side the way models with different base sizes are supposed to be placed. I would say if you have 5 BW go for it because it is still following the rules but if you have 4 then no because you still need to have a complete rank.

No, that's not how it works. The rule refers to each character individually, not as a "group" of characters. Each individual Branchwraith is on a 25mm base. 25mm does not fit in a unit of 20mm bases, and so must be "attached" to the side of the front rank. Then you try to add the second Branchwraith to the unit; same problem - 25mm does not fit in a unit of 20mm bases. You've already got one character attached to the side of the front rank, so there is now no room for a second character. Nor will there be room for a third, fourth or fifth Branchwraith.

The number of models in a rank is, frankly, irrelevant and has no bearing on whether characters can fit in the unit. For the record, you don't *have* to have ranks that are five models wide, it's just that you won't get rank bonuses if the unit is less than five models wide. That doesn't change a thing when it comes to whether characters can join units.

I guess I was wrong. I never really dug into the rules of more than 1 character in a group of different base sizes. After a reread of the rules it does appear more than 1 different size units cannot be in a unit.

Also I did not say it has to be 5 wide because of min requirement, he said he wanted to run 5 wide EG behind him and you need all ranks of the same numbers.

[Lassoto]

I guess I was wrong. I never really dug into the rules of more than 1 character in a group of different base sizes. After a reread of the rules it does appear more than 1 different size units cannot be in a unit.

Also I did not say it has to be 5 wide because of min requirement, he said he wanted to run 5 wide EG behind him and you need all ranks of the same numbers.

Some things you have misunderstood or have been misunderstood in this thread so far. No where in the BRB does it say you can displace units because you are monstrous and therefore might count as a rank.

The rule says you have to be able to displace an integer of the selected unit. It then continues to say that for ranks purposes it counts as if the character was as many rank and file as he displaces.

More than 1 model with a different size can be in the unit, one to each side of the front rank.

Also I haven't done this myself but I understand it is allowed to "upgrade" footprint but not to "downgrade" it.

[RedPanda]

If you bumped the BW up to 5 models and put them in the front rank I see no reason while that could not work.

1)
WWWWW
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX

2)
WXXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX

How is exm. 1 Much different than exm. 2? With 5 BW it would be equal to the 5 EG with a BW in the front rank on the side the way models with different base sizes are supposed to be placed. I would say if you have 5 BW go for it because it is still following the rules but if you have 4 then no because you still need to have a complete rank.

No, that's not how it works. The rule refers to each character individually, not as a "group" of characters. Each individual Branchwraith is on a 25mm base. 25mm does not fit in a unit of 20mm bases, and so must be "attached" to the side of the front rank. Then you try to add the second Branchwraith to the unit; same problem - 25mm does not fit in a unit of 20mm bases. You've already got one character attached to the side of the front rank, so there is now no room for a second character. Nor will there be room for a third, fourth or fifth Branchwraith.

The number of models in a rank is, frankly, irrelevant and has no bearing on whether characters can fit in the unit. For the record, you don't *have* to have ranks that are five models wide, it's just that you won't get rank bonuses if the unit is less than five models wide. That doesn't change a thing when it comes to whether characters can join units.

Why cannot it go on the other side? (so you have 2 in the front rank on opposite sides)

[mjHession]

Why cannot it go on the other side? (so you have 2 in the front rank on opposite sides)

I could potentially see this as acceptable, but still doesn't allow for more than 2 BWs.

[Lassoto]

Why cannot it go on the other side? (so you have 2 in the front rank on opposite sides)

I could potentially see this as acceptable, but still doesn't allow for more than 2 BWs.

Potentially? Nothing in the rules forbids this, the only two things affecting this is
"When footprints collide" and the little box on the same page.

Nowhere does it say that only one model may use "When footprints collide". It does however say that if there is no room for another character it can't join the unit.

[RedPanda]

The rules contradict itself with the rule of No Room, Position in the Unit and the Different-sized Bases/When Footprints Collide.

Two schools of thought:
The people say who want a full rank of BW in the front says the BW will displace the entire EG out of the front rank.
The people who follows the "no room" rule says that it cannot happen due to the no room rule.

(The two BW on either side is ok)

The best answer? Email GW.

[mjHession]

Before a forth BW can join the unit and displace the whole front rank, the third BW must join the unit. Where does BW #3 go? There is no room on the sides and 3 BWs do not fit neatly.

[RedPanda]

Before a forth BW can join the unit and displace the whole front rank, the third BW must join the unit. Where does BW #3 go? There is no room on the sides and 3 BWs do not fit neatly.

Well it depends on your thought process, if you think of it like:
if all the characters join the unit at once then it will be exactly 1 rank which they are displacing
If the characters join the unit one by one then they wont be able to join being it wont fit (past the 2 on the sides)