Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
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Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
So, having enjoyed a somewhat painful comeback to the forrest after nearly a year and a half away from full-time Warhammer, I'm finding deployment to be one of the weakest parts of my game, and in particular where the hell does this free wood go.
I pondered how to get some advice on this, since it's clearly very situational, and resolved that the best way might be to provide some situations! Therefore, what I'm proposing is that we go through some of the candidate ETC maps for 2014 's competition and discuss on each one where the wood might go, and importantly why.
I also think that we should limit the discussion to just our free wood, and not include the Acorn. Why? Well firstly it introduces too many variables and two we can't control where the woods are.
The output eventually I would hope to be a LEAF article, I would blend all the discussion into a crowd sourced piece (with diagrams) that would provide some advice to those who have not yet mastered the art of topiary.
The Challenge:
Pick a list, pick a table and a board edge and tell us where your free wood would go, and why.
If you like, feel free to invent an opponents play style to help you with the thought process.
GO!
I pondered how to get some advice on this, since it's clearly very situational, and resolved that the best way might be to provide some situations! Therefore, what I'm proposing is that we go through some of the candidate ETC maps for 2014 's competition and discuss on each one where the wood might go, and importantly why.
I also think that we should limit the discussion to just our free wood, and not include the Acorn. Why? Well firstly it introduces too many variables and two we can't control where the woods are.
The output eventually I would hope to be a LEAF article, I would blend all the discussion into a crowd sourced piece (with diagrams) that would provide some advice to those who have not yet mastered the art of topiary.
The Challenge:
Pick a list, pick a table and a board edge and tell us where your free wood would go, and why.
If you like, feel free to invent an opponents play style to help you with the thought process.
GO!
Last edited by Fitz on 27 May 2014, 10:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
List 1 - Moonstone list "borrowed" from FriedTaterExplosion
Spellweaver
Acorns of the Ages, Level 4, Lore of Shadow
Glade Captain
Battle Standard, Moonstone of the Hidden Ways, Dragonbane Gem, Enchanted Shield, Asrai Longbow, Asrai Spear, Elven Steed, Light Armor, Starfire Arrows
Spellsinger
Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Lore of Beasts
24x Eternal Guard
Full Command, Gleaming Banner
10x Glade Guard
Trueflight Arrows, Musician
10x Glade Guard
Trueflight Arrows, Musician
3x Warhawk Riders
10x Wild Riders
Shields, Standard, Banner of the Eternal Flame
7x Wild Riders
Shields
7x Wild Riders
Shields
Great Eagle
10x Waywatchers
10x Waywatchers
List 2 - More shooting focused written by Fitz
Spellweaver
Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Amulet, Elven Steed, Level 4, Lore of Shadow
Glade Captain
Hail of Doom Arrow, Charmed Shield, Asrai Longbow, Battle Standard, Elven Steed, Hand Weapon, Light Armor, Shield
Waystalker
Bow of Loren
10 x Glade Guard
Musician, Hagbane Tips
10 x Glade Guard
Musician, Hagbane Tips
10 x Glade Guard
Musician, Trueflight Arrows
10 x Glade Guard
Musician, Trueflight Arrows
8 x Deepwood Scouts
Hagbane Tips
8 x Sisters of the Thorn
Standard of Discipline, Musician, Standard Bearer
3x Warhawk Riders
5x Wild Riders
Standard Bearer, Shields
5x Wild Riders
Standard Bearer, Shields
10 x Waywatchers
10x Waywatchers
Great Eagle
Great Eagle
Spellweaver
Acorns of the Ages, Level 4, Lore of Shadow
Glade Captain
Battle Standard, Moonstone of the Hidden Ways, Dragonbane Gem, Enchanted Shield, Asrai Longbow, Asrai Spear, Elven Steed, Light Armor, Starfire Arrows
Spellsinger
Level 1, Dispel Scroll, Lore of Beasts
24x Eternal Guard
Full Command, Gleaming Banner
10x Glade Guard
Trueflight Arrows, Musician
10x Glade Guard
Trueflight Arrows, Musician
3x Warhawk Riders
10x Wild Riders
Shields, Standard, Banner of the Eternal Flame
7x Wild Riders
Shields
7x Wild Riders
Shields
Great Eagle
10x Waywatchers
10x Waywatchers
List 2 - More shooting focused written by Fitz
Spellweaver
Dispel Scroll, Obsidian Amulet, Elven Steed, Level 4, Lore of Shadow
Glade Captain
Hail of Doom Arrow, Charmed Shield, Asrai Longbow, Battle Standard, Elven Steed, Hand Weapon, Light Armor, Shield
Waystalker
Bow of Loren
10 x Glade Guard
Musician, Hagbane Tips
10 x Glade Guard
Musician, Hagbane Tips
10 x Glade Guard
Musician, Trueflight Arrows
10 x Glade Guard
Musician, Trueflight Arrows
8 x Deepwood Scouts
Hagbane Tips
8 x Sisters of the Thorn
Standard of Discipline, Musician, Standard Bearer
3x Warhawk Riders
5x Wild Riders
Standard Bearer, Shields
5x Wild Riders
Standard Bearer, Shields
10 x Waywatchers
10x Waywatchers
Great Eagle
Great Eagle
Last edited by Fitz on 27 May 2014, 10:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Here are the maps for discussion
Map 1
Map 2
Map 3
Map 1
Map 2
Map 3
Last edited by Fitz on 25 May 2014, 17:45, edited 4 times in total.
- Beithir Seun
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Sounds like an interesting discussion. I would agree on the "exclusion" of the Acorn; even though it's a fun item and I intend to include it in as many lists as I can, I don't expect to see it appearing in (m)any ETC lists (although I'm most definitely not an ETC gamer, so what do I know?)
I may not be the best candidate to write an archetypal list (my choice of army list tends to veer from the norm, at least with our previous book ) but I'd happy to try my hand if desired.
I'm looking forward to the discussion at any rate!
I may not be the best candidate to write an archetypal list (my choice of army list tends to veer from the norm, at least with our previous book ) but I'd happy to try my hand if desired.
I'm looking forward to the discussion at any rate!
Carrot and Stick ~ Beithir's Blog
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Just to be clear, I'm not intending this to be an "ETC" discussion, I just felt like the maps they produced this year are nice and balanced and also I don't have to create them!!
- Beithir Seun
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Sorry, I get that you weren't intending this to be an ETC-centric discussion. I just meant that I don't expect to see the Acorn featuring in lists for what would be considered "top" tournaments, of which the ETC is one of the most prominent I would put the Acorn in the "fun" category rather than "competitive" (although that's not to say that competitive can't also be fun )
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- sunstrider
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Yeah I'm interested to see what the maps are and what the lists are. I've always had an eye for clever deployment strategies, and adding more terrain to the table can change the entire flow of battle. It's pretty remarkable how subtle yet powerful terrain positioning is
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Well I'm gone for the weekend, but I'll do the maps tonight. If someone else fancies shooting up a list or three over the weekend we can start properly next week.
- OfTheThorn
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
I suppose the two obvious archetypes are those lists which seek to use the forest to bunker their mage and glade guard, and those which use the forest to augment their CC troops.
However, I reckon more than a few players will have a go at using forests to channel the enemy and dictate their movement. If you're going to be tree singing the forest, that relies on there being no enemies inside it ... So that list would probably resemble neither of the above.
However, I reckon more than a few players will have a go at using forests to channel the enemy and dictate their movement. If you're going to be tree singing the forest, that relies on there being no enemies inside it ... So that list would probably resemble neither of the above.
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
There are multiple uses on each forest, and all forests can be and are dual/multiple usage, I think In a nut shell it is:
Multiple attacks Users
Creating Multiple attacks
Blocking LoS/Creating shooting penalties
Blocking Movement
Magic Boosting
Magic Nuke-ing Forest
It all depends on your army make up really, prob the best forest is the poison when it comes to versatility.
Personally I like to put all the forests on half of the board and force them to trudge through forests instead of sparely spaced forests which they can maneuver around all. Regardless of which table side they end up being on.
Multiple attacks Users
Creating Multiple attacks
Blocking LoS/Creating shooting penalties
Blocking Movement
Magic Boosting
Magic Nuke-ing Forest
It all depends on your army make up really, prob the best forest is the poison when it comes to versatility.
Personally I like to put all the forests on half of the board and force them to trudge through forests instead of sparely spaced forests which they can maneuver around all. Regardless of which table side they end up being on.
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
I think this is a really good idea. I want to see where this leads and what ideas everybody comes up with.
Here is the link to the maps:
http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 8&t=122631
One list with the moonstone one with a fast cav bus? +1 casting bonus from a forest is important for some lists and important for shadow at the ETC. Forest placements are pretty funny on some maps.
Here is the link to the maps:
http://www.warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewt ... 8&t=122631
One list with the moonstone one with a fast cav bus? +1 casting bonus from a forest is important for some lists and important for shadow at the ETC. Forest placements are pretty funny on some maps.
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Thanks for linking the maps. I'll make pretty pictures out of maps 1-3 and add them to the second post on Sunday.
Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
I'm mostly playing 1000pt games atm as my local gaming club is doing a points escalation. I'm running 16gg, 8 WR, 9WD, 5SotT, waystalker with the BoL and 7 WW. I've put my list up in case it helps with the archetypes.
I tend to place the free wood right up against the centreline of the table and have it as a venom thicket. During deployment I use it as a bunker to protect the WW so that they can be in their short range and reasonably safe. It also creates a barrier to the opponent that he has to work around that we don't. You do need to be careful where you place your GG though unless they have TF arrows to avoid blocking sight lines to the warmachines and monsters that they will be after if like me you often give them hagbanes arrows.
Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned in the thread yet is the type of wood. Where you put the wood will have an impact on what you want it to be. For example a centreline wood as a venom thicket is a good place to bunker units, WW like I use or Eternal guard are good examples of units that will want to sit in them.
I tend to place the free wood right up against the centreline of the table and have it as a venom thicket. During deployment I use it as a bunker to protect the WW so that they can be in their short range and reasonably safe. It also creates a barrier to the opponent that he has to work around that we don't. You do need to be careful where you place your GG though unless they have TF arrows to avoid blocking sight lines to the warmachines and monsters that they will be after if like me you often give them hagbanes arrows.
Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned in the thread yet is the type of wood. Where you put the wood will have an impact on what you want it to be. For example a centreline wood as a venom thicket is a good place to bunker units, WW like I use or Eternal guard are good examples of units that will want to sit in them.
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
After wrestling for 30 minutes the maps are in post 3.
I can't seem to get the site to allow me to use dropbox tgo host them
I can't seem to get the site to allow me to use dropbox tgo host them
- Beithir Seun
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Fitz wrote:I can't seem to get the site to allow me to use dropbox tgo host them
Use Photobucket, Flickr or Imgur.
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Sorted, thanks Bethir. Anyone fancy posting a list? Otherwise I'll get one sorted once the tiddler has gone to bed.
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Generally it depends on your list as well as your deployment type. I tend to place my forest towards the back edge of the board aligned from the centre to slightly the left or right depending on line of sight. It is a bunker for my glade guard with spellweaver.
The other deployment option is deploying forward and pushing my eternal guard into it to make them better in combat.
The other deployment option is deploying forward and pushing my eternal guard into it to make them better in combat.
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
One use of the free forest I've noted is effective is that if you've got a building in your deployment zone or close to it, such that you can shove a unit into it that your opponent wants to get points from, it makes for a wonderful spot to place a venom thicket in front of, where the opponent would otherwise have to go around to avoid it. In this way, each time the unit in the building gets charged, the entire opposing unit needs to take a dangerous terrain check and the unit in the building is Steadfast, every combat.
Another option is putting the forest in a centrally located position where you think your combat units can make the most of it, or make the opponent think twice about charging through it (causing dangerous terrain checks), assuming you made it a venom thicket.
Another option is putting the forest in a centrally located position where you think your combat units can make the most of it, or make the opponent think twice about charging through it (causing dangerous terrain checks), assuming you made it a venom thicket.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: Gardeners question time: Placement of the free wood.
Ok, post two updated with lists!
The Challenge:
Pick a list, pick a table and a board edge and tell us where your free wood would go, and why.
If you like, feel free to invent an opponents play style to help you with the thought process.
GO!
The Challenge:
Pick a list, pick a table and a board edge and tell us where your free wood would go, and why.
If you like, feel free to invent an opponents play style to help you with the thought process.
GO!