Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

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Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by ampao »

Hey All,

I was thinking of bringing 3 characters on stags, preferrably one with a moonstone.

two questions:

a. how viable would this unit be?
b. what would you kit them with?

Was thinking:
1: 3+ 4++ Ogre blade
2: 4+ 4++ some MR thing
3: BSB? Moonstone carrier

Thoughts?
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Pigey »

Sooooo, 800 points? Or something like it?
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by ampao »

uhm, not really sure. Dont have the book right now, had the idea pop in my head at work. maybe a lord level and 2 hero level stag riders.

Edit: did some math, and it came out to 697.

Lord with 100pts eqpt and stag is 313
Hero with 50pts eqpt and stag is 192

Ill be left with enough for some glade and eternal (for anvil) guard core.
Some wild riders

and the must-have waywatchers. ;)
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Rogue Sun »

I've been kicking around the idea of something like this. It's not an optimal use of points but it'll definitely hit hard. I kitted my guys less for defense and more for sheer attack output. It makes them a good unit to hit a medium sized block and hope to come out on top.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Luminith »

I would go all glade captains. Glade lord is too expensive. You could probably get 4 in for a reasonable price (I mean, reasonable for a 4 character unit haha) and get 4d3 str 5 impact hits :). Id also take asrai spears, the helm of the hunt, and the PoF, for 14 str 5 attacks from the characters. Also, just for kicks, I'd take a bsb with the hunter banner (the 75 pt one) so you can vanguard those bad boys :)
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Tethlis »

One thing with going all Glade Captains is that you don't get a huge advantage over simply using Wild Riders. You can get some decent survivability with 4++ Wards, but if you're stuck using mundane weapons then you're paying for a Glade Captain on Stag whose hitting power is almost statistically identical to two or three Wild Riders.

I think you need to work in at least one Lord-level character to help gain specialized hitting power (i.e. something higher than Strength 5) as well as decent protection. Otherwise Wild Riders you don't really gain any advantage compared to simply using Wild Riders. I suspect players would like the dual advantage of a unit that looks cool and is also useful, and I think you need the Lord's combination of durability and hitting power in order to achieve that.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Domine Nox »

Well each Great Stag is adding in Impact Hits and their own set of S5 attacks. So that's something, 3 characters on stags you're looking at 3D3 S5 Impact Hits, that alone can be surprisingly effective, and the stags are making all of those Riders T5 since they are Monstrous Mounts.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Beragon »

Domine Nox wrote:..., and the stags are making all of those Riders T5 since they are Monstrous Mounts.
If only that were true... alas Great Stags are T4 (which all things considered, isn't bad... it's just not T5).
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Rogue Sun »

Tethlis wrote:One thing with going all Glade Captains is that you don't get a huge advantage over simply using Wild Riders. You can get some decent survivability with 4++ Wards, but if you're stuck using mundane weapons then you're paying for a Glade Captain on Stag whose hitting power is almost statistically identical to two or three Wild Riders.

I think you need to work in at least one Lord-level character to help gain specialized hitting power (i.e. something higher than Strength 5) as well as decent protection. Otherwise Wild Riders you don't really gain any advantage compared to simply using Wild Riders. I suspect players would like the dual advantage of a unit that looks cool and is also useful, and I think you need the Lord's combination of durability and hitting power in order to achieve that.
I'm still not sold on the idea of kitting out our characters for durability. We can get a grand total of one 2+ AS in our army and that is ONLY if a character uses the Armor of Silvered Steel. So that leaves Ward Saves, but seeing as we can only get two 4++, which in and of itself isn't *that* reliable on T3 (T4 in this case) characters that it just doesn't make sense to even spend the points for it. I'm of the mindset - the best defense is a good offense. We're elves, our Lords and Heroes have insane initiative AND we have ASF. I'd be aiming to killing as many dudes as you can before taking hits back. Still give them all 3+ armor sure, but I don't see the point in buying expensive protective items which don't even offer that much protection.

All that aside though I guess my main querry would be - is it better to kit these characters to hit hard or to hit often? The way I kitted my 3 guys out when I wrote my initial list, the characters and their mounts were putting out between 29-35 attacks on the charge but none of the characters were hitting above S4. Obviously not designed to fight elite knights but more of a blender bus to tear through larger blocks of foot dudes. I chose this mainly because, as you said, there is little advantage to take the characters over the Wild Riders so I felt they should be putting out a similar attack profile (6 wild riders, which is the same rank frontage, puts out 31 attacks). On the other hand, I can see the appeal of having three characters hitting at S6 or more but my concerns are that the unit is so expensive that it'll hardly justify it's points. It'll hit like a freight train, but it can't attack anything in decent numbers for lack of proper defense and number of attacks.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by seanr »

I agree that we need to pour all our points into offense since we can't get a good enough defense. Strength boosting rather than attack boosting is probably the way to go, though you can do a bit of both: Sword of Anti-heroes is probably a decent choice for one of them.

One possibility, just to make the unit even more expensive, is a Highweaver on a Unicorn in the second rank. She'll give them all MR2, and the High attribute can negate wounds. Alternatively a Lifeweaver could be helpful with Regrowth and Flesh to Stone.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Luminith »

High seems like a good choice for that cannon/magic protection, but I'd actually go with a lv4 beasts. If you're in for a penny, you're in for a pound with this set up, so we may as well 6 dice savage beasts and hope for the best haha. There'd also be a reason to take panns pelt as well, which is not too shabby.

Does monstrous cavalry get its full attacks (up to 3) like monstrous infantry does, in supporting ranks?
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Domine Nox »

Luminith wrote:Does monstrous cavalry get its full attacks (up to 3) like monstrous infantry does, in supporting ranks?
Yes, but as you're running characters you're not likely to get ranks.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Luminith »

Why not? If the unit is entirely made up of characters, it's still a unit, is it not? And since they don't have the skirmish special rule, they'd just follow the normal RnF rules, no?

I'm asking because it'd be kind of cool to see a couple unicorns in the back ranks, getting their full str 6 attacks
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Domine Nox »

The mounts won't get supporting attacks, they are still mounts.

My comment about not getting ranks, is you're only going to be able to afford like 3-4 characters on stags.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Luminith »

Ah, gotcha. My question was geared towards the mounts :)
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by InstantKarma »

It does seem like it could be fun, and with the new stag models available, some nice conversion potential.

I want to say I really like the idea, but I am leaning in the direction of 'Why not more WR'? I seems like in terms of spells that would benefit this Stagstar, the WR will get the same & be cheaper for it.

Now with that said, Im going to disagree on the defense/offense debate going on here. Since our casters have an easier time than most to buff a unit like WR or the Stagtar, and thus improve their offensive potential, I'd argue that defense is where you'd want to beef these guys up. The 3 models would have a total of 10 wounds at T4, which isn't great, but does put them above average. Spells like Iceshard Blizzard and Curse of Anraheir will be great to blunt any retaliation, thus solving the low AS issue to an extent. I'd argue your step should be in getting a decent ward save and maybe an MR item to boot. Simply slap Spears & Shields on your characters, and with Wyssan's they'll hit at S6 with AP on the charge, most likely with re-rolls to hit, and the stags will also be S6 on their attacks as well. This seems like an easily achievable outcome. Have a lv 4 Beastweaver, lv 1 Heavens (thus our defensive debuffs on the enemy unit we're charging), Sisters (to guarantee Curse of Anraheir, and perhaps free the Weaver for something else) and then just pick up your 1 Lord & 2 Captains on Great Stags. Give the Lord the Helm of the Hunt and ToP, give your BSB AoD, and give the other Captain AoF & OT. This should help keep the cost somewhat down, make them hit hard on the charge against the wide range of enemies, and offer good protection, relative to Wood Elves of course :p

I think this set up could benefit from more CC support or lots of shooting to soften up the Stagstar's target. I can see a big advantage for this unit is no Frenzy, so easier to control than the WR, though with no Fast Cav, they'll need an extra turn to cross the board. Seems like that just means more time to set up their target for the fall, which in my mind isn't a bad thing.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Rogue Sun »

What's the point of even taking them at that point though? Wyssyans is better suited to the Wild Riders as they'll also be S6 AP on the charge but get WAY more attacks. So basically your argument is spend all the points cause they have one higher toughness and some ward saves. Sorry, but I remain unconvinced. In order to make them worth their points they either need some huge survivability, which a 3+/5++ isn't going to provide, or they need to have massive combat potential. Seeing as we literally have no way to provide huge survivability other than magic it seems to me boosting their attack output and forgoing wards is their best use.

No matter how they're kitted they'll never be worth their points for an equal amount of wild riders but at least this way they are putting out a similar threat.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Tethlis »

InstantKarma wrote: I want to say I really like the idea, but I am leaning in the direction of 'Why not more WR'? I seems like in terms of spells that would benefit this Stagstar, the WR will get the same & be cheaper for it.
Yeah, I think this conversation isn't about "what's better", because you're absolutely correct: the equivalent number of Wild RIders is "better". It's more about what do players want to try out, simply for the fun and the fluff of it :)

I personally think avoiding offense is a bad idea. A turn of shooting from a few repeater bolt throwers and some Shades or Sisters of Avelorn and your whole unit is toast. Even one good Organ Gun volley and the whole unit is mushy paste. Considering how the Wounds have to be allocated in a unit that's only characters, having two characters with Ward Saves, one with Silvered Steel, would really help them reach combat and try to do something. If one is a Lord, you can still fit in a good specialty magic weapon, and Asrai spears on the rest still provide plenty of hitting power when you charge. That unit at least seems moderately functional, compared to an unarmored unit with ~40 point magic weapons that will die to any respectable shooting phase. You might as well hand your opponent points if you go that route.
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Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Rogue Sun »

Is that really what your opponent is going to be shooting at though? I'm no top tournament player but even I know that a unit of wild riders who just vanguarded towards me is going to hit my lines sooner than these guys. I feel like threat saturation is going to be the best means of defense here.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Tethlis »

Rogue Sun wrote:Is that really what your opponent is going to be shooting at though? I'm no top tournament player but even I know that a unit of wild riders who just vanguarded towards me is going to hit my lines sooner than these guys. I feel like threat saturation is going to be the best means of defense here.
If the Wild Riders Vanguarded, they either won't be charging right away if they went first, or you'll have your own turn to respond. Either way, the opponent gets a chance to plant a redirector in front of them, knowing that they control their overrun direction due to Frenzy. That buys them a turn to unload missile fire on the 9-Wound, Toughness 4, 600 point unit that only has 4+ armor saves. It's a freebie, like shooting Skullcrushers with half the armor save but worth twice the points.

Conversely, if the Stags are too far away to be shot at, then they're also too far away to be a combat threat, so you shoot the threats that are available until the Stag Riders decide to show up. Threat saturation is good, but it's only works when you acknowledge that every unit you have on the board could die. If you have a Treeman, Warhawks, two units of Wild Riders and Waywatchers all running around, then losing one unit isn't a crisis because you still have a lot of other units left that project combat threats and fulfill redundant roles. If you have a 600 point fragile unit though, as well as a number of 150 to 200 point fragile units, then target saturation doesn't work because you still have one unit that's got a huge "shoot me, I'm worth points" sign painted on it :)
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by InstantKarma »

Rogue Sun wrote:What's the point of even taking them at that point though? Wyssyans is better suited to the Wild Riders as they'll also be S6 AP on the charge but get WAY more attacks. So basically your argument is spend all the points cause they have one higher toughness and some ward saves. Sorry, but I remain unconvinced. In order to make them worth their points they either need some huge survivability, which a 3+/5++ isn't going to provide, or they need to have massive combat potential. Seeing as we literally have no way to provide huge survivability other than magic it seems to me boosting their attack output and forgoing wards is their best use.

No matter how they're kitted they'll never be worth their points for an equal amount of wild riders but at least this way they are putting out a similar threat.
The Great Stags will hit harder than normal stags though, between Impact Hits, regular attacks, and stomps, and at 1 S higher (Wyssan's or not) so right there you'd have something of an edge over WR. Two of them would have 4++ and 3++ MR, and then 1 5++ and 4++ MR.

I could see a good argument for the offensive loadout. Load them all up with +A/+S weapons sure, I just think with cheapo AP spears, theres always a nice alternative, and combined with some ward saves and curses, we become deceptively resiliant. I think as HE demonstrate, Elves in general can become quite 'tough' with enough Ward saves spread around, and being made harder to hit.

Again, if we're theoryhammering for a serious list, it'll be a braver player than I who would try running a Stagstar like the one we're hashing out, I just think an 'All or Nothing' attitude to defense isn't the position I would take, even as an army which isn't able to sport 2+ AS Core Cav units. I'll admit being a newbie to this, so my lack of experience is probably showing in my arguments :p
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by seanr »

Or the alternative is just keeping them cheap and pouring the points into other threats. Both offense and defense can be boosted magically, and for the cost of giving them all ward saves you can buy a unit if Wild Riders.

Also, I prefer the term 'Stag Party' :D
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Jamesaet3 »

I played in a tournament against a greenskins army, and he had a 10x10 night goblin block with his front row being nothing but goblin heroes. It was not fun hitting the front of that unit, was very effective.

But I don't think we could afford to do a front row of captains, just way to many points.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Morewar »

:nod:
Jamesaet3 wrote:I played in a tournament against a greenskins army, and he had a 10x10 night goblin block with his front row being nothing but goblin heroes. It was not fun hitting the front of that unit, was very effective.

But I don't think we could afford to do a front row of captains, just way to many points.
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Re: Wood Elves Monstrous Cav Unit!

Post by Luminith »

Just thinking about it some more, you could use solo captains on stags as chariots. Pts wise they're not much different, they can move twice as far, or more, and hit as hard. They might not have as much toughness, but they're pretty damn comparable
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