What is the role of our combat heroes?

[Akallabeth]

Hello fellow Asrai. Like many of you I've been thinking a lot about the new book and the new options it offers, but I still don't know what to make of our non-wizard characters.
In the previous books our combat heroes had access to different kinds of defensive magic items and sprites, specially lots of good ward saves. With that gone I can't find what these guys are supposed to do. Accurate and deadly shooting can be found in WW and to a lesser extent in our other archers, strength 5 can be found in our WR and the WWR...and the list goes on.

It seems that the way to go is to go light on chars except a couple of wizards and a BSB.

Is there something I'm missing? What are your plans for our glade lords and captains? (given that the shadowdancer and the waystalker have their own threads)

[Zimmonda]

Glade captains=bsb so yay
Glade lords= only if you want a dragon

But more seriously all 3 elf books rarely see their lord level combat character

[Fildrigar]

I honestly don't know without a bunch of testing.

Eternal Guard used to require a combat character to get Stubborn. Not anymore.
I used to use Combat Heroes to add attacks to my Glade Riders. Can't anymore.
I used to always field an Alter Kindred, just to run around adding attacks to key combats. Not anymore.

Still very worthwhile to field a BSB. I will have to test out using a Hero or Lord on a Great Stag in Wild Riders/Sisters of Thorn just to see if extra combat ability is worth the trade off of losing Fast Cavalry. ( I suspect not. ) And honestly, a Wild Rider is just about as killy as a Hero on a Steed anyway.

I think it's going to be worth tossing a Shadowdancer in a larger unit, just to take away opposing rank bonuses. I'm feeling pretty bullish on Branchwraiths. 75 points for a low level wizard that can actually kill things in melee *and* can toss out heals with every successful cast? Sign me up. ( Although, Life may be the worst lore for a Level 1. )
.

[Rogue Sun]

If you're building completely for a competitive edge, you're probably only looking at a Lvl 4 and a BSB. Maybe a Lvl1-2 depending on build. And that pretty much applies to every elven army.

If you're looking to build something a bit less competitive but significantly more fun - reach for a glade lord and don't try to kit him too heavily for defense. That's just wasted potential and we can't do much to protect our characters anyway.

Something about this build makes me happy -

Glade Lord, Light Armor, Shield, Great Stag, Helm of the Hunt, Potion of Strength, Sword of Bloodshed. 8 S7 ASF attacks for one turn and 4-6 S5 from the Stag.

Almost seems like he could run solo and just hit flanks or go monster hunting.

[Luminith]

85 pts for a glade captain on a steed. That's decent to me. Bring 5-6 in a unit of sisters or wild riders, add some beast magic and enjoy you need to tailor your list around them IMO

Or make a unit of 4, on stags, and see what happens haha. Once again with wyssans or savage beasts, you're gonna hit friggin hard. 4d3 str 5-6 impact hits. 12-24 str 4-7 attacks, plus 8 str 5-6 stag attacks

[Drstrangelove]

Role of combat heroes? Kinda limited to be honest.
Being unable to get a decent save with mundane (or even magical) kit like the DE/HE limits their effectiveness.

I am toying with the idea of a BSB on stag run solo, with Armour of Destiny and a great weapon, kinda like WoC use a BSB on Juggernaut. Definitely not as effective, but could be really fun.

Captains on steed for 85 points may be great chaff, but I am worried by how ridiculously fragile they are. May get killed before they can redirect anything.

[Zimmonda]

What is the obsession everyone seems to have with mounting their characters?

[Drstrangelove]

Imagine a magic item. For 20 points you get +4M, Vanguard, extra +1 to your armour save, unlimited free reforms, and an extra S3 attack at I4.

That item would be in every list.
That item is a horse.

Does that answer your question?

[Boskie43]

Imagine a magic item. For 20 points you get +4M, Vanguard, extra +1 to your armour save, unlimited free reforms, and an extra S3 attack at I4.

That item would be in every list.
That item is a horse.

Does that answer your question?

Well played sir

[Yuri]

One more crucial thing to add to mr. Drstrangelove:
- immunity to (Thunder)Stomp

[Gwill_of_the_Woods]

In the old book I always used to include a Wild Rider Kindred Noble, with dawnspear, into a unit of 9 Wild Rider (making 10) . Give the unit Razor banner.
I found that the noble would give them a bit of extra killing power to win some combat res.

All of that seems obsolete now. Wild Riders have Razor banner build in, and there is no need to take a noble (or glade captain) as the Wild Rider pack enough punch as it is now. Especially with their mount receiving bonus attacks from frenzy. For a unit of 10 (2 ranks of 5 with champion) you are talking 21 S5 ASF AP attacks from riders & 10 S4 attacks from the mount. So they'll be fine without putting any more killing power in.

I am going to field a noble with Hail of Doom Arrow & Great Weapon (still going to be striking first with I7), just to help out my Glade Guard if they fall under attack.

I think the casters became a lot better. I'll take a lvl 1 beasts on steed to buff Wild Riders.

Like previously mentioned, I can't see taking a "Combat Lord" unless I'm taking a Dragon, or using Orion. I feel our Combat characters have really lost out due to the loss of accessible ward saves. However, the units that I needed to put them in no longer need them.

But we'll see what synergies come abut from this new book.

[Drstrangelove]

^I used to do precisely the same thing: Noble with Dawnspear in WR. But you are quite right, WR don't need help causing damage now, they really don't. They may need some help to not take damage, so I've toyed with a captain carrying magic resistance........but probably better off just taking another half unit for the points.
Curse of Anreheir will have to fulfill the same role that the Dawnspear used to, stopping WR taking as much damage back.

[Phil Rossiter]

But more seriously all 3 elf books rarely see their lord level combat character

The 1+ re-rolling HE/DE lord in cavalry (for example) is popular and effective.

Glade Lord, Light Armor, Shield, Great Stag, Helm of the Hunt, Potion of Strength, Sword of Bloodshed. 8 S7 ASF attacks for one turn and 4-6 S5 from the Stag.

Almost seems like he could run solo and just hit flanks or go monster hunting.

Solo Stag is fine if your enemy doesn't have much ranged offense. Otherwise he needs a unit IMHO. Build looks a bit risky to me, cannon will eat him.

All of that seems obsolete now. Wild Riders have Razor banner build in, and there is no need to take a noble (or glade captain) as the Wild Rider pack enough punch as it is now. Especially with their mount receiving bonus attacks from frenzy. For a unit of 10 (2 ranks of 5 with champion) you are talking 21 S5 ASF AP attacks from riders & 10 S4 attacks from the mount. So they'll be fine without putting any more killing power in.

Problem is, what happens if they get charged? What happens if the enemy they charge doesn't break first round? That is where characters come in. By putting combat lord and maybe BSB in the unit you can take charges better so can move the unit up more aggressively. You can fight grinding combats. I'm looking at either 8 WR with Stag Lord or 7 Sisters (because the 4++ stops you leaking combat res), the Stag and a horsed BSB.

Eagle hero with Charmed Shield, 4++ and GW looks a decent chariot-cannon hunter. EG don't need a Noble any more but there's still a lot to be said for advancing those re-rolls up the field in a Stubborn bunker, especially if you're running any other combat units.

[Rogue Sun]

Man, I'm really getting tired of the "cannon will kill it" excuse. First off, there are what 4 armies that actually can bring cannons? And yeah, cannons will kill things, that's why people bring them. But we're wood elves. If your opponent is getting a 2nd shot off with a Cannon then you need to turn in your pointy ears and bow. Get over the damn cannons and cone to terms with the fact that you have to risk things sometimes in order to win.

[Phil Rossiter]

I play Great Stag every game.

Believe me, Charmed Shield is a good idea.

[Tethlis]

I play Great Stag every game.

Believe me, Charmed Shield is a good idea.

Agreed.

A Treeman is vulnerable to most cannons.

A combat character is not, with Charmed Shield and/or Dragonbane Gem, plus buildings or linear obstacles. There are a lot ways to survive cannons long enough to kill them.

[Zimmonda]

Yes but that horse also temds to take you out of a forest so....

[gingersmali]

If you're building completely for a competitive edge, you're probably only looking at a Lvl 4 and a BSB. Maybe a Lvl1-2 depending on build. And that pretty much applies to every elven army.

If you're looking to build something a bit less competitive but significantly more fun - reach for a glade lord and don't try to kit him too heavily for defense. That's just wasted potential and we can't do much to protect our characters anyway.

Something about this build makes me happy -

Glade Lord, Light Armor, Shield, Great Stag, Helm of the Hunt, Potion of Strength, Sword of Bloodshed. 8 S7 ASF attacks for one turn and 4-6 S5 from the Stag.

Almost seems like he could run solo and just hit flanks or go monster hunting.

This guy knows whats up, also glade lord with spirit sword but again not for super competitive play.

[Phil Rossiter]

In my games with the Stag he is consistently targeted by war machines of all hues. The 3++ from Crystal Mere kept him alive (most of the time). I was praying he'd get access to the Charmed Shield and he got it. I don't think you can spend 300pts and not put in a 5pt item that makes such a difference.

[OfTheThorn]

Incidentally, I love how Arrow of Kurnous makes Charmed Shield useless on enemy generals now! I wonder if it'll be seen any less on Demon Princes and the like...

[Phil Rossiter]

Wood Elves are only one army.

I suspect the DP will still want it to reduce his chances of getting cannoned off. Plus he may be able to deploy behind a building or such.

[Hyarion]

With the change to the list we'll have to do some minor revisions but old wisdom is usually best:

There are 3.5 reasons to take a Glade Lord:
Ld 10.
Dragon.
Magic Item Combos.
and Fluff.

[Shandrakor]

So, for comparison's sake, some decent combat character builds + a BSB build:

Glade Lord:
Armor of Silvered Steel + Talisman of Protection + Potion of Foolhardiness + Great Weapon + Mount if desired

Dragonhelm + Talisman of Protection + Ogre Blade + Potion of Foolhardiness + Light Armor + Shield + Mount if desired

Helm of the Hunt + Sword of Bloodshed + Potion of Strength + Light Armor + Shield + Elven Steed (Needs unit protection to get where intended)

Glade Captain:
BSB + Hail of Doom Arrow + Bow of Loren + Light Armor + Shield + Asrai Spear + Elven Steed (Needs unit protection)

Armor of Destiny + Great Weapon (General Purpose, pick a mount if desired)


In general, the role of our combat characters is to add a bit of extra punch / staying power to a unit or out flank an opponent and be able to add extra combat resolution / kills to fights with lone characters. BSB is an exception, in that it can stay relatively safely out of combat and still add benefit to the army in the Leadership re-rolls, as well as shooting.

[Phil Rossiter]

BSB + Hail of Doom Arrow + Bow of Loren + Light Armor + Shield + Asrai Spear + Elven Steed (Needs unit protection)

I wondered about this.

Doesn't the BSB have to use the Bow of Loren (it being a Magic Weapon) and thus is unable to shoot Hail of Doom? Or can he choose freely between his magical and non-magical bow?

[Beithir Seun]

BSB + Hail of Doom Arrow + Bow of Loren + Light Armor + Shield + Asrai Spear + Elven Steed (Needs unit protection)

I wondered about this.

Doesn't the BSB have to use the Bow of Loren (it being a Magic Weapon) and thus is unable to shoot Hail of Doom? Or can he choose freely between his magical and non-magical bow?

Hail of Doom Arrow only specifies that it must be fired by an Asrai longbow, which the Bow of Loren is. There's nothing that prevents the HoDA being fired from the Bow of Loren.