Eternal Guard or Wildwood Rangers?

[Minsc]

Haven't actually played any games with the new armybook yet, but I reckon I will field 25-30 EG (5 wide) and 20 WWR's (7 wide) in the same list quite often, since they seem to complement each other very well. That should also mean that I actually have a fighting chance in Blood & Glory-scenarios. (Also because it will look awesome!)

I also think Tethlis is onto something with the "EG + Scouts or GG + WWR" approach, if you don't want to or can't field both in the same list.

[sunstrider]

Like a lot of people mentioned, filling up your core with eternal guard opens up the option for deepwood scouts for special. But Thinking about it in terms of army dependence and synergy, I think wildwood rangers do better with the rest of the wood elf army. They don't need as much magic support as an eternal guard unit to be combat effective (not just a big unit to survive for a couple of turns to get flank charges) given their str5 attacks at ws5. True they can't bring as many attacks to bear, but they have a higher chance of hitting and wounding, so I'd say that's a net gain.

There's also the situational possibly of getting an extra attacks against the appropriate units.

[Minsc]

True they can't bring as many attacks to bear, but they have a higher chance of hitting and wounding, so I'd say that's a net gain.

Eternal Guard often get re-rolls to hit due to ASF and WWR don't.
So while WWR will have a higher chance of wounding, they won't hit as many times.

[MortenLarsen]

Acorn and the fear causing forest should work neatly with WWR is you can the enemy to you. I will be trying this out against either Empire or Lizards soon.

[Domine Nox]

I'm not sold on the EG. I don't see how they fit the feel of the rest of the army which is fast moving, hard hitting, and fragile. I guess that means they have a place for that exact reason, but I feel if I'm invested in being quick and hard hitting, might as well go all in. So I definitely prefer WWR over the EG, and if you mix it with Abyssal Woods you get to make sure they are at peak fighting power.

[Yuri]

21 EG or WWR

EG

[Fitz]

I'm going to try out a couple of units of 15 EG in this list : http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=26745

It gives you the stubborn roadblock for a flank charge follow up, without being 300+ points in a block.

[Coyle_Ravane]

I'm not sold on the EG. I don't see how they fit the feel of the rest of the army which is fast moving, hard hitting, and fragile. I guess that means they have a place for that exact reason, but I feel if I'm invested in being quick and hard hitting, might as well go all in. So I definitely prefer WWR over the EG, and if you mix it with Abyssal Woods you get to make sure they are at peak fighting power.

WWR are better at killing stuff. The point of EG, however, is not to win fights by themselves, but to pin enemy units in place. It doesn't matter how badly they loose, as long as there is at least 1 still alive, the enemy is stuck, which allows you to either set up flank and rear charges with those lovely mobile hard-hitting units, or use them to mop up the enemy army while their best unit and characters are tied up in combat with a unit of stubborn eternal guard, who are being resurrected, buffed with higher toughness, or having the enemy unit suffer penalties to hit.

[geofreak]

I agree that WWR are not meant to kill things by themselves, and I totally disagree with them being effective monster hunters. I sent a unit of 20 up against a hydra over the weekend. Hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s should have caused 5 wounds and all would be fine. I only caused 3. What then happened? Regular attacks + breath weapon hits + thunderstomp = 14 dead elves. Countercharged next turn and the rangers were toast.

If you want to use them as a stand alone Monster Hunters, you will need a BIG block of these guys for survivability but also don't expect them to succeed on one turn of combat. Being in a woods will help, but you cannot always control that. I see them more as a 10-12 strong support/countercharging unit. Let your Eternal Guard block get charged and you countercharge with the rangers.

However, for a few more points, a Wild Rider unit performs the same function much better...and with ASF re-rolls, too! That is the way I am leaning.

[Coyle_Ravane]

However, for a few more points, a Wild Rider unit performs the same function much better...and with ASF re-rolls, too! That is the way I am leaning.

This is why I think wwr should be used in big blocks or not at all.

20 wwr with full command is not hugely expensive, and they can do more damage on the charge than EG, but less than wildriders. However, unlike wildriders they have +3 rank bonus (at the start of combat) and enough ranks to deny the enemy steadfast. This is one unit which could really do well led by a hero, and could go toe-to-toe in combat, win combat and potentially break the opposition on the charge.

That isn't our best style of play, but it is an option.

[Shandrakor]

Personally, I find I just need a unit to stick the enemy blocks in place for a round to counter-charge with Wild Riders to deal the finishing blow. My shooting already puts a dent in the enemy, then they get stuck on the Eternal Guard, and my turn they get mopped up with a mass of S5 attacks from the Wild Riders in the flank. This, as compared to the Wildwood Rangers that just give up combat resolution like crazy from casualties and without re-rolls to hit they don't do enough damage themselves to stick around in combat with any dangerous block like the Eternal Guard would.

For that reason, I say go with the Eternal Guard and let your Wild Riders dish out the damage for on the cheap (5-7 for 130-200pts). They don't even need command models when you use them this way because they benefit from what the Eternal Guard bring and the Wild Riders usually win, on the charge, by so much that command models wouldn't matter anyways.

[najo]

To be honest I am going to run them both. I have 30 eternal guard already which I intend to keep using as an anvil and simply have unit of 15-20 rangers to be a hammer. The rest of my points will be waywatchers, glade guard and a spellweaver.

Although stubborn does make a unit fairly reliable in combat, toughness 3 elves with a 5-6 armor save are not an anvil. T5 W3 treekin with a 4+ scaly skin and a 6+ ward save is an anvil! Rangers are great hammer though! So are wildriders.

[Minsc]

Although stubborn does make a unit fairly reliable in combat, toughness 3 elves with a 5-6 armor save are not an anvil. T5 W3 treekin with a 4+ scaly skin and a 6+ ward save is an anvil!

Things that will plow trough Eternal Guard (plenty of S4+ attacks) will still most likely beat Treekin in combat and with S4 Treekin are meh at producing combat-res on their own, so there's a fair chance that they will actually loose that combat and break (a regular infantry-block that charges them will have 5 combat-res before the fighting starts! ), where'as Eternal Guard would take a bunch of casualties, but hold and make sure you get that important counter-charge.

Treekin are best at tanking units with S3 or few (i.e. one attack each preferably) S4 attacks - and against these units Eternal Guard will still be a good tankingunit, especially with +5 regen which I intend to throw on mine.

[Beithir Seun]

The single biggest factor in the anvil stakes is Stubborn. Rangers aren't. Treekin aren't. Eternal Guard are. It doesn't matter how many casualties they take, and how badly they lose, so long as there's one guy left alive they will hold their ground eight times out of ten (almost ten out of ten with a BSB re-roll). Rangers and Treekin only need to lose combat by 1 and they are vulnerable to running in the first round of combat. The units you want to deploy an anvil against are the sorts of unit that you know you won't win combat against, which means that the ability to hold ground is far more valuable than dishing out casualties. In those stakes, Eternal Guard come out on top by a long way.

Rangers are definitely not an anvil unit; they're a hammer-lite unit. Against most basic rank-and-file like Skeleton Warriors, Goblins, Clanrats, Slaves etc. they will chew through easily, but up against a decent, tougher or quicker CC unit (Chaos Warriors, Orcs, other Elves, Ogres etc.) they will simply be hammered. As Coyle_Ravane said, they can do more damage than EG, but less than Wild Riders. For me, they'd be used as cleaner-uppers; the unit you use to clean up the mess that the Wild Riders leave behind, and deal with those units that your Wild Riders would be wasted on

[frogboy]

To shield or not to shield ? That is the question, I would like to hear some opinions on seen as the eternal guard are meant to die anyway dose giving them a shield give them enough staying power to be worth spending the extra points on them or are them points better invested in other valuable assets ?

[Coyle_Ravane]

To shield or not to shield ? That is the question, I would like to hear some opinions on seen as the eternal guard are meant to die anyway dose giving them a shield give them enough staying power to be worth spending the extra points on them or are them points better invested in other valuable assets ?

I say yes. 9% increase in point cost, but it takes 20% more s3 or 4 hits to wipe them out.

Killing 20 with no save requires 20 wounds.
Killing 20 with 6+ requires an average of 24 wounds.
Killing 20 with 5+ requires an average of 30 wounds.

So against most standard shooting it's more efficient than using the points for more models. If it helps me make sure enough make it into combat for 1 to survive untill the wildriders arrive, it's points well spent.

[Beithir Seun]

I also say yes

[NiteOwl]

Haha well I was just about to quote you Coyle_Ravane from the Eternal Guard thread regarding the shields.

I second the use of shields.

[Luminith]

Definitely go shields! They need to survive as long as possible

Does anyone else feel that the wildwood rangers are a huge contributing factor in the strength nerf of our forest spirits? Their potential is somewhat limited as the book is now (at least in my opinion) but if dryads were still strength 4 and tree kin were still strength 5, you'd never see these guys on the table!

[popisdead]

I would say it is more important to look at how you are going to fill the gaps in shooting, and army composition.

If you have EG you will probably want to make up some shooting from not having as many Glade Guard. So Deepwood Scouts, the Twilight Sisters are good to consider. At that point EG are a good option and with 3+ arrows your GG can dance around behind the EG.

They serve a much different purpose too. I would take EG for the anvil role and Rangers to fight and dish out some wounds, backed with a Miasma or Curse of Anraheir (lacking the re-rolls) as a reliable combat unit.

I would never take small sizes of either unit. The meta will shift towards infantry again and 10 near naked T3 elves will just die. Even to magic missiles.

[Drstrangelove]

I would never take small sizes of either unit. The meta will shift towards infantry again and 10 near naked T3 elves will just die. Even to magic missiles.

Spot on. Despite Ben Curry predicting 10 EG at being a great road block I think you'd have to bring 4 units of 10 to get that effect.

Waywatchers/BS-shooting are back in the badass box, and the hard counter to this is the infantry block. Love that the meta has come full circle

[Coyle_Ravane]

I would never take small sizes of either unit. The meta will shift towards infantry again and 10 near naked T3 elves will just die. Even to magic missiles.

Spot on. Despite Ben Curry predicting 10 EG at being a great road block I think you'd have to bring 4 units of 10 to get that effect.

Waywatchers/BS-shooting are back in the badass box, and the hard counter to this is the infantry block. Love that the meta has come full circle

All well and good to say that, but at the moment units if 10-15 are working.

Yes, they need a little magical assistance,but we aren't talking about mindrazor, we're talking iceshard blizzard, pha's protection, curse of anraheir, curse of the midnight wind.

Killing 10 EG in one round of combat us not as easy as you are making out. Even without magic it's going to take a strong elite unit, or a really tooled up combat character. With even a single -1 to hit spell it is getting really hard. If something is really that strong, you should have used the 15 man unit, and left the 10man unit to deal with smaller, less elite units.

Big units of EG mean you can only block one unit, and they die faster to spells like dwellers.

I think 15 is the optimal size although ten man units workfor holding up less powerful enemies. A shift in meta towards large infantry blocks again is not going to change that, if anything, the lesser hitting power of infantry compared to charging cavalry will make 15 EG last longer with less magical support.

I still see wwr working in larger units though, 20 or 25 with a shadowdancer wearing the glittering scales. They will struggle against the stronger units in the game but probably our best chance of winning combat and breaking the enemy by themselves.

[Drstrangelove]

I think you are right, 15 is a much more reliable roadblock than 10.

When I crunch the numbers on the kind of things I'd want to hold up (black knight/silverhelm bus, SOBU horde, Gor/Bestigor horde, Ogre unit of any kind with >6 models, Gorebeast chariot, BoN block, executioners, halberdier horde, etc etc) 10 do not survive often enough to justify their role, even when deployed on a fairly narrow 3 wide frontage (which does limit their blocking capabilities.
15 has it start to require freak rolling for them all to be taken off against a lot of things.

[Coyle_Ravane]

I think you are right, 15 is a much more reliable roadblock than 10.

When I crunch the numbers on the kind of things I'd want to hold up (black knight/silverhelm bus, SOBU horde, Gor/Bestigor horde, Ogre unit of any kind with >6 models, r Gorebeast chariot, BoN block, executioners, halberdier horde, etc etc) 10 do not survive often enough to justify their role, even when deployed on a fairly narrow 3 wide frontage (which does limit their blocking capabilities.
15 has it start to require freak rolling for them all to be taken off against a lot of things.

Obviously if you use them to block the games harder-hitting units, 10 isn't going to cut it, not without an unlikely level of magical support (life for T7, heavens to make the other guy reroll 6's and give him -1 to hit, at the very minimum).

That's why I bring a unit of 10 and one of 15 (to increase once I can afford to replace my dryads with more EG). The 10 can hold up smaller or less powerful units, often for a while with magical support, while the 15 take the charge of the big nasty unit.

[Drstrangelove]

I'm coming round to the idea that we don't need to block smaller less powerful units like we used to have to do.
I'm finding Wild Riders can just roll smaller/weaker stuff off the board. The struggle is just with the real powerhouse units.

I'm thinking of splitting my unit of 30 into two of 15.........but the thing that always stops me is the knowledge that I'm likely to give up the points for at least half of them, whereas with 30 it's all or nothing kind of thing (which when it works, works well, and when it doesn''t.......oh dear).