Why glade guard?

[Luminith]

Now that I have confirmation about rules with the new book, I have to ask, why take glade guard? Scouts get skirmish and scout, have the same stats and upgrades and are only half a slave more. Where's the incentive to take glade guard? To fill up core? I think eternal guard and glade riders can fill those points up just fine.

I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious. I'd love to hear some thoughts on tactics and benefits of talking them

[Ember of the Hidden Paths]

I was thinking that as well, however I think the advantage of Glade Guard is that, if set up in a wood, they are still beasts in CC. Rerolls to hit, ASF, reroll 1 to wound, Poison attacks from the Venom thicket that will now always be taken, A very good stand and shoot, the enemy taking dangerous terrain on the charge, a banner, ranks, an extra rank if attacks. All these things add up to mean that even once an enemy unit reaches a glade guard gun line, it will still take immense casualties taking down the pathetic archers. Scouts do not have this advantage.

[Tethlis]

More Poison is better. Glade Guard provide that. They are also a useful "distraction" that your enemy can fixate on, allowing you to set traps as your opponents advance to reach the GG. Skirmishing is an advantage in mobility but doesn't change how the unit shoots. Being able to use Core to boost your shooting phase is helpful.

[Coyle_Ravane]

I was thinking that as well, however I think the advantage of Glade Guard is that, if set up in a wood, they are still beasts in CC. Rerolls to hit, ASF, reroll 1 to wound, Poison attacks from the Venom thicket that will now always be taken, A very good stand and shoot, the enemy taking dangerous terrain on the charge, a banner, ranks, an extra rank if attacks. All these things add up to mean that even once an enemy unit reaches a glade guard gun line, it will still take immense casualties taking down the pathetic archers. Scouts do not have this advantage.

Ok, but you know you could use your rare and stick 8 waywatchers in the wood for better, more versatile firepower, increased resistance to bs shooting and also warmachines, and a similar level of asf poison attacks in combat. Freeing core for things that haven't been nerfed, like eg or gr.

More Poison is better. Glade Guard provide that. They are also a useful "distraction" that your enemy can fixate on, allowing you to set traps as your opponents advance to reach the GG. Skirmishing is an advantage in mobility but doesn't change how the unit shoots. Being able to use Core to boost your shooting phase is helpful.

A comparison I did over on warseer:

Poisoned arrows seem to be the favourite for a general purpose role, so if we compare 36 of them, stationary, at close range, to 36 old gg, same conditions, they both average 12 wounds against T4, against T3 old gg score 16 wounds to New gg's 15 wounds. Against T5 the old gg score 8 wounds, while new gg score 10.

So, the new gg with poisoned arrows are better vs T5 right? Well, sinc they are 25% more expensive, and manage 25% more average wounds, no. Thats where they become as good as old gg, it takes T6 opposition for them to be better.

[Tethlis]

I see a lot of talk about the lack of Strength 4 at short range. Old Glade Guard are gone. They aren't coming back. Your comparison bears up well when discussing short range, but a lot of shooting happens at long range. If you're scraping Wounds off an entrenched Organ Gun, or trying to soften up a Gorebeast Chariot before it is close enough to charge, Poison is a vast improvement. Circumstances in games don't always reflect the simple circumstances of unloading a lot of shots with no Modifiers at short range.

[gingersmali]

I while scout maybe be better, there are other choice in rare and special that don't have and core equivalent. I personally don't see what is so good about EG, or lots of units of GR. So while you may think GG have go worse you have to pay your core tax some how.

[Joey_Boy]

I think that the new Poison GG are infact better then the old s4 on short GG would have been in the context of the new book. Poison is a crazy good thing to have, there is a reason skink clouds are/where the bane of many armys, and it was not for their impressive combat prowess.

[Niedfaru]

Because we spent all of 8th ed so far buying more glade guard and have nothing else to put in our core?

Really though, I can see at least one trick GG can do: magic banners.

A Glade Guard unit can theoretically pump out flaming, poisoned shots, while Deepwood Scouts can do one or the other.

[arolig]

Reasons to take GG:
-fill up core
-rank up archers
-more bows
- 1 point cheaper than a scout is one point cheaper (not mutch, but a bit if you'r looking at another core+lots of scouts)


Reasons to take scouts:
- Poison make them decent warmachine hunters
- Higher chance of completing deployment before opponent
- worth dwelling over spending 20-30 extra points to upgrade GG to scouts, if you have GR, EG or Dryads core.
- Skirmish means stubborn in forests and difficult to hit, advanced tactics with GR core and Acorn of the ages and scouts can be cool in forests.


Reasons not to take scouts as special:
-Waywatchers doo everything the scouts doo, only better, except for warmachine hunting
-your core will most likely be GG's, so why spam scouts? U are usually waiting for opponent to come to you.


Will I use scouts?
Yes! I see a place for upto ten of them to hunt warmachines with poison, nothing more.

[brechttomme]

Putting plugs everywhere!
http://asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26375

No, but seriously, I agree with Tethlis in that there is no use comparing the new GG to the old. They have changed, be it for the better or for the worse, but they have gained a lot of options. I feel like they are now not just a general purpose unit, but need to be specialised for a certain role in your army. Do you need to shred infantry? Multiple shots. Are you going to be moving and hiding? Trueflight. Do you want to kill Monsters and War Machines? Hagbane. For more detail on what to choose, visit the link above.

I personally really like Deepwood Scouts. BUT: while they are strictly better than Glade Guard, they fill the same roles and come out of Special. If they were Core (even if they were more expensive), there's no doubt I would only take Scouts and no GG. The thing is, though, that you have to fill Core. Dryads and Eternal Guard can be useful for some purposes, but aren't generally worth using 25% of your army on. Glade Riders have to ambush, so there is a lot of unreliability there, and an all Glade Rider Core doesn't immediately seem like the best option to me (though it could be a fun one!). So, that leaves us with the ever trusty Glade Guard. You know what you're getting when you include them, and they can fill many different roles for your army, depending on their setup. More shooting is always a good thing after all.

[frogboy]

Why Glade Guard ?

Because with the new arrows a unit of 10 can cost 200 points. What do you mean so what !? Well 3 units is now 25% core in 2400 point games, yes just think 30 models in core, that's less painting less space in your carry case, just think of all them mould lines, err yuk ! Its a cheap way for new starters to play bigger games. Everyone's a winner

[Coyle_Ravane]

I see a lot of talk about the lack of Strength 4 at short range. Old Glade Guard are gone. They aren't coming back. Your comparison bears up well when discussing short range, but a lot of shooting happens at long range. If you're scraping Wounds off an entrenched Organ Gun, or trying to soften up a Gorebeast Chariot before it is close enough to charge, Poison is a vast improvement. Circumstances in games don't always reflect the simple circumstances of unloading a lot of shots with no Modifiers at short range.

Firstly, I'm not saying they don't have a place. A small block of GG with poison could be very useful for chipping wounds off greater daemons, dragons, warmachines etc.
Similarly, against armies with more armour, a unit or two with bodkins could be useful.

However, against the majority of targets, gladeguard in general are worse. Also, even if we don't move forwards, the majority of our shooting will be done at short range simply because the enemy almost certainly will move forwards, and the ones that don't can probably outshoot us anyway.

I know that we're not getting the old gg back, and that's fine.

What I am trying to do is challenge the perception that the new version of gg are the best way to fill up your core. Take a unit or two for specific roles like warmachines or knights, by all means, but don't fill your core with substandard units just for the sake of it.

Dryads have been nerfed to the point I doubt we will see them much, and gladeriders are dubious, purely due to ambushers.
In some avoidance builds they will be great, and some people may find it handy having a small unit come on behind the enemy line after a couple of turns to charge down fleeing units, take out warmachines or archers etc.

Eternal guard, however are at least as worth having in your list as glade guard. In my opinion, moreso, as unless you take multiple treemen, you probably won't take any, leaving rare free for waywatchers who are better than gg (point for point) at killing both large numbers of lesser enemies, and smaller numbers of heavily armoured enemies. Against high toughness targets, we can take scouts with poison, still not brilliant but at least more mobile and able to start at short range for slightly improved accuracy, or we have sisters of the thorn, who are much more expensive, but almost make up the difference with their improved accuracy (they can march 18" to get at close range where they'll hit on 2+) and the fact that they can have their shooting strength boosted.

We only have one other unit which can do the EGs job though, the treeman.

Ld9 stubborn core is AMAZING! Got an enemy unit you don't want to fight? Fine, chuck 10 EG at it, maybe use your sisters of the thorn to cast curse on it and watch your opponents elite struggle to hit, or use life magic to boost your eg to t5 or even t7. Want to smash that other unit? Fine, chuck 10 EG in there too, while you bring your wildriders round for a rear charge.

Edit: typo

[Furyou Miko]

Unfortunately, it won't format neatly into a PDF file without redesigning the whole thing. ;

Best I can do.

[brechttomme]

I think you posted this in the wrong thread Furyou! I posted a PDF version (on one page) in the correct topic. (http://asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26375).
But yes, this can help you see how Glade Guard are still effective Core. They may be expensive, but when specialised for a certain role, provide a key element in your army. Hagbane Tips, for example, seem to be good against anything T5+, which we would have trouble with at range (Waywatchers don't do the same thing). Or, another example of what we lack: Flaming Attacks at range. Whether you do this with the Banner of Eternal Flame or Moonfire Shots/Starfire Shards, Glade Guard are a useful contender. Again, Glade Riders/Deepwood Scouts can be used for this too, but sheer volume of shots and the need to fill up Core, respectively, make GG a good option.

EDIT: I just noticed I basically said the exact same thing a couple of posts up... Sorry for that.

[firenz]

You want glade guard in core, trust me. They are an amasing toolkit combined with the rest of the army. Just use different arrows on 3 units. I like units of 13 since then they need to kill 4 for a panictest. Flaming on one for the regen denying, trueflight for skirmish hunting, and bodkins on one for extra armor punch. then you use 3 x 10 scouts with poison, these are so good, I killed a warmachine a turn with each. Monsters can say goodnight. And max waywatchers, these are as good as advertised.

You dont need any closecombat, just avoid and shoot.

[gingersmali]

Firstly, I'm not saying they don't have a place. A small block of EG with poison could be very useful for chipping wounds off greater daemons, dragons, warmachines etc.
Similarly, against armies with more armour, a unit or two with bodkins could be useful.

I would be very impressed if you managed to get into combat with a greater daemon in a venom thicket. They can pick there fights and would either engage the EG in the flank or not bother. This is why you need glade guard with poison as they can chose who they shot at.

[gingersmali]

You dont need any closecombat, just avoid and shoot.

I think this isn't quiet true. You can run all shooting armies but i think you will find them inflexible and loose to certain armies/builds.

[Coyle_Ravane]

You want glade guard in core, trust me. They are an amasing toolkit combined with the rest of the army. Just use different arrows on 3 units. I like units of 13 since then they need to kill 4 for a panictest. Flaming on one for the regen denying, trueflight for skirmish hunting, and bodkins on one for extra armor punch. then you use 3 x 10 scouts with poison, these are so good, I killed a warmachine a turn with each. Monsters can say goodnight. And max waywatchers, these are as good as advertised.

You dont need any closecombat, just avoid and shoot.

Gladeguard don't evade though. They stand there and get hacked down on turn 2 or 3 because you don't have any blockers and the rest of your army just "evaded" to the other side of the table.

If you play avoidance you want glade riders, probably with no modifier arrows so they can use their mobility to hold the enemy at range (at least -1 for range, -1 for moving). Starting of the table is a pain, unless you take two eagles for redirecting, and a sisters of the thorn unit bunker with a weaver as your only units with normal deployment. Then add 2 largeish units of waywatchers, a bunch of gladeriders and some scouts.

You are almost guaranteed to get the +1 to go first (my first version of this type of list had nothing but gr, ww and 6 waystalkers as it's only characters, so no normal deployment), your opponent has to guess where most of your deployment will be, everything is flyer skirmisher or fast cavalry, and you have lots of shooting.

[Luminith]

I was thinking that as well, however I think the advantage of Glade Guard is that, if set up in a wood, they are still beasts in CC. Rerolls to hit, ASF, reroll 1 to wound, Poison attacks from the Venom thicket that will now always be taken, A very good stand and shoot, the enemy taking dangerous terrain on the charge, a banner, ranks, an extra rank if attacks. All these things add up to mean that even once an enemy unit reaches a glade guard gun line, it will still take immense casualties taking down the pathetic archers. Scouts do not have this advantage.

Agreed. They'll hit a bit harder, but you're suggesting you want your glade guard in combat. Even losing 10 is painful now (90 slaves with full command and poison) so if you're suggesting a unit of 30 or something, I think they'll still get chewed up against heavy hitters, and you're risking a lot of pts

Scouts have forest stalker as well, and if you're planning on wood fights, enemy rank and file can't be steadfast in a forest, while scouts are stubborn.

More Poison is better. Glade Guard provide that. They are also a useful "distraction" that your enemy can fixate on, allowing you to set traps as your opponents advance to reach the GG. Skirmishing is an advantage in mobility but doesn't change how the unit shoots. Being able to use Core to boost your shooting phase is helpful.

More poison is good, but IMO more mobility is better. And scouts have no unit limit, so you could get just as many shots in there if you wanted. I don't want my opponent to fixate on my glade guard as a target, I want them to be frustrated with their inability to touch my shooters, and recklessly charge the only thing they can get to.
I would argue that being able to march and shoot does in fact change their ability to shoot.

Because we spent all of 8th ed so far buying more glade guard and have nothing else to put in our core?

Really though, I can see at least one trick GG can do: magic banners.

A Glade Guard unit can theoretically pump out flaming, poisoned shots, while Deepwood Scouts can do one or the other.

Haha this is true, I have 70 myself (20 are Waywatcher conversions)
I don't believe you can take a flaming standard and magic arrows, can you? You can't make your magic attacks flaming unless they're part of your profile, right?

Reasons to take GG:
-fill up core
-rank up archers
-more bows
- 1 point cheaper than a scout is one point cheaper (not mutch, but a bit if you'r looking at another core+lots of scouts)


Reasons to take scouts:
- Poison make them decent warmachine hunters
- Higher chance of completing deployment before opponent
- worth dwelling over spending 20-30 extra points to upgrade GG to scouts, if you have GR, EG or Dryads core.
- Skirmish means stubborn in forests and difficult to hit, advanced tactics with GR core and Acorn of the ages and scouts can be cool in forests.


Reasons not to take scouts as special:
-Waywatchers doo everything the scouts doo, only better, except for warmachine hunting
-your core will most likely be GG's, so why spam scouts? U are usually waiting for opponent to come to you.


Will I use scouts?
Yes! I see a place for upto ten of them to hunt warmachines with poison, nothing more.

Agreed, you just said my primary reason for taking scouts. They'll be the best war machine hunters. That's what I need them for most.

My plan for most games will involve 30 poison scouts (all these numbers will be split up, not one big unit) to get rid of the war machines, 15-20 Waywatchers to get whittle down heavy armour/MC, and about 20 glade riders, with no mod arrows, to clean up chaff and get those unmodified shots at last turn runaways.

[Drstrangelove]

I intend to run very few glade guard. Why? Because for one point more I get 10inch march and shoot on skirmishers with scout.
If I didn't need to fill core, or if Glade Riders didn't have ambush, or if Dryads didn't suck now.......then I wouldn't bring any at all.

Avoidance and shooting is where we rule, and skirmishing scouts with magic arrows give us that.

[gingersmali]

I think it depends what type of list your going for. In all out avoidance lists, you might want to give them a miss also if you go for a more combat, orientated army. But if not one of these i expect them to feature In most list.

Yes scouts are better, but they don't fill core. It i will often be a question question of scouts and glade riders or glade guard and wild riders/sisters, similarly scout and EG or Glade guard and wild-wood rangers.

[Coyle_Ravane]

Firstly, I'm not saying they don't have a place. A small block of EG with poison could be very useful for chipping wounds off greater daemons, dragons, warmachines etc.
Similarly, against armies with more armour, a unit or two with bodkins could be useful.

I would be very impressed if you managed to get into combat with a greater daemon in a venom thicket. They can pick there fights and would either engage the EG in the flank or not bother. This is why you need glade guard with poison as they can chose who they shot at.

Just saw this.

Typo. I meant small units of GG (would have thought that was obvious from the context).

[brechttomme]

And scouts have no unit limit, so you could get just as many shots in there if you wanted.

They do have a unit limit though. As they are in Special, you can take up to 3 units in a standard army, and 6 in a Grand Army. Keep that in mind when you are building your lists, because you'll likely want them to remain small units (so as to be expendable and manoeuvrable.

[Luminith]

And scouts have no unit limit, so you could get just as many shots in there if you wanted.

They do have a unit limit though. As they are in Special, you can take up to 3 units in a standard army, and 6 in a Grand Army. Keep that in mind when you are building your lists, because you'll likely want them to remain small units (so as to be expendable and manoeuvrable.

Sorry, what I meant is no size cap on a unit.
With the new rules,I'm not sure you'd want more than 3 units of glade guard, so it's kind of a moot point. Unless you took no penalty arrow, I guess.

One possible tactic I could see being good is a unit of 30 with multi shot arrows, and a high mage. Hand of glory them and youre looking at 60 shots at bs5-7. That's one hell of a stand and shoot reaction

[gingersmali]

Firstly, I'm not saying they don't have a place. A small block of EG with poison could be very useful for chipping wounds off greater daemons, dragons, warmachines etc.
Similarly, against armies with more armour, a unit or two with bodkins could be useful.

I would be very impressed if you managed to get into combat with a greater daemon in a venom thicket. They can pick there fights and would either engage the EG in the flank or not bother. This is why you need glade guard with poison as they can chose who they shot at.

Just saw this.

Typo. I meant small units of GG (would have thought that was obvious from the context).

Yer... my bad, i must have skim read sorry!