Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

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Aemir
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Aemir »

This thread is made of pure awesomeness. Thank you from all our society.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by GladeLars »

Yeah, I started doing this for some of the situations I was in doubt about, but this is a massive, much better piece of work. Great job and much appreciated!
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

Thank you all for the compliments! It looks like the thread already got stickied as well. Thanks to whichever mod did that! :D
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Beithir Seun »

No problem ;)
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Polycotton »

Thanks a lot for doing all the work for this Old Bean. I'm a massive number cruncher when it comes to dice rolling and was dreading doing such calculations myself but knew if I didn't I'd be annoyed not knowing exactly what the right arrows were for the right situations.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Gwill_of_the_Woods »

This is amazing! Thank you so much for your time!

I am definitely going to load 2 units of 20 GG up with Poisoned arrows. I have always loved the poison rule.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

I just thought of a mistake I made... at -4 To Hit (not that it's going to occur much), BS4 units need 7s (which was taken into account), but when you need 7s or worse, the Poison special rule is actually negated. I'll fix this up when I have time.

EDIT: Ok, the Poison issue has been fixed. Additionally, I've expanded the table to include T1 and T2, to be able to predict damage caused to a unit affected by Toughness debuffs (such as the Withering)
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by godswearhats »

Once this has baked for a bit longer, would you like to push this to the LEAF?
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

godswearhats wrote:Once this has baked for a bit longer, would you like to push this to the LEAF?
I feel like that's not really my choice, more of a "the people decide" kind of thing ;).
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by justin.ellis@me.com »

Signed up just to say THANK YOU!
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by bjoernuhlig »

u get my vote. very useful thread, is there a way to push the people over at leaf to include this? leaf actually needs quite some updates, as half of their articles dont apply anymore. this is just what they need.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by godswearhats »

brechttomme wrote:
godswearhats wrote:Once this has baked for a bit longer, would you like to push this to the LEAF?
I feel like that's not really my choice, more of a "the people decide" kind of thing ;).
Actually it's my choice as Leaf Leader :-) I'm asking you because it means you have to take on maintaining the article once it's live (e.g. if FAQ change rules, or problems are found in the math, etc.)
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

Thanks again for all the compliments, guys! If there's anything you'd like to see added or changed, please don't hesitate to ask for it.
godswearhats wrote: Actually it's my choice as Leaf Leader :-) I'm asking you because it means you have to take on maintaining the article once it's live (e.g. if FAQ change rules, or problems are found in the math, etc.)
Ha! Ok, well I'm fine with keeping it updated, as long as I get notified somehow what the issue is (I may not notice on my own! Especially if I'm in a period where I'm playing my Tomb Kings again). I did notice after revising the document for the umpteenth time, that there are six cells coloured purple which should really be red. If you want to add it to the LEAF, I'll fix that. :thumbsup:

EDIT: Alright, the recolouring of cells has been done. I also added some security to the Excel document in that you now can't edit any of the cells accidentally (or on purpose, but why would you do that, right?). I know this is irrational, but it's kind of sad to always see the amount of downloads reaching 100 when I reupload it and it gets brought back down to 0... :tear: The good news though, is that it means I've been helping 100 people (unless there's one guy downloading it 50 times). That's amazing! I hope they always download the newest version though...
Last edited by brechttomme on 07 May 2014, 13:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

I know I'm posting twice in a row now, but I thought this would be better in a separate post as it concerns a new change. I've been made aware that it would be nice to factor in point costs, to make a better comparison. The reason for this is that, for example, if in a certain situation it is stated Arcane Bodkins are the best, they may not actually be. Perhaps Hagbane Tips are actually better, because they cost less points per model and as such you get more shots with them. The way I'll do this is to multiply all shots taken by the ratio of (unupgraded cost of basic unit)/(upgraded cost of basic unit). With Glade Guard, for example, this would be, for those Arcane Bodkins: (6 Skaven Slaves)/(8,5 Skaven Slaves). For the Hagbane Tips it'd be: (6 Skaven Slaves)/(7,5 Skaven Slaves). This might take a little while, as I have to go to class now, but bear with me.

EDIT: Sorry guys, but it's going to have to wait until the weekend. I have an Organic Chemistry mock exam on Friday, and I really need to do some more studying! <.< I'll leave the current files up for now, so you can still use them in the meantime.
Last edited by brechttomme on 07 May 2014, 18:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by hutobega »

I still feel hagbane is the best bang for the buck vs most armies. though i want to take one ten man unit of GG with true flight so I can place them far away and pick things off from 30" the entire game they will go for enemy skirmishers (which usually have no armor and low toughness) and other chafe units. The suprise my friends will feel when i hit his empire huntsmen on a 3+ when they are skirmishers in a forest haha. or enemies in a building =P
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by deadboytat2 »

So I was going to post my number crunching to help peeps out but it looks like I was beaten to the punch. I down loaded your table I just wish I could get it printed out in a not shrunk down model so I could see it more clearly. If it was enlarged in the PDF and maybe spanned several pages that would be awesome. Still even without thanks for this.

Even so here is how I was working out this problem I am not super good at math or anything but it is a different way to look at it that might help some people. with the conclusions I was forming. Though I may have to go back and red address them now that I have even more information to look at. These are by no means as all inclusive as the % listed in the PDF though.

Glade Guard Arrows. Numbers presented are for 15 man units. ( Because 15 give you maximum shots in a 5 wide unit in a forest. even if you plan to run other unit sizes this will still give you a good idea of what to expect average wise.)

Hagbane
Long Range + stand and shoot to hit - (15/2 ) = 7.5 hits (7.5/6) = 1.25 poison so 6.5 normal hits
T2 (12.5/3) 4.16 + 1.25 = 5.41 wounds
T3 (6.25/2 ) 3.12 + 1.25 = 4.37 wounds
T4 (6.25/3) 2.08 + 1.25 = 3.33 wounds
T5+ (6.25/6) 1.04 + 1.25 = 2.29 wounds

Short range to hit ( 30/3) = 10 hits (10/6) = 1.66 poison with 8.34 normal hits
T2 (16.68/3) 5.56 +1.66 = 7.22 wounds
T3 (8.34/2) 4.17 +1.66= 5.83 wounds
T4 (8.34/3) 2.78+1.66= 4.44 wounds
T5+ (8.34/6) 1.39 + 1.66 = 3.05 wounds

True Flight
Long range + short range + stand and shoot to hits (30/3) = 10 hits
T2 (20/3) = 6.66 wounds
T3 (10/2) = 5 wounds
T4 ( 10/3) = 3 wounds
T5+ (10/6) = 1.66 wounds

Swiftshiver Shards
long range + stand and shoot to hit (30/3) = 10 hits
T2 (20/3) = 6.66 wounds
T3 (10/2) = 5 wounds
T4 (10/3) = 3 wounds
T5 (10/6) = 1.66 wounds

Short range to hits (30/2) = 15 hits
T2 (30/3) = 10 wounds
T3 (15/2) = 7.5 wounds
T4 (15/3) = 5 wounds
T5+ (15/6) = 2.5 wounds

Arcane Bodkins / Normal shots
( these shots all hit and wound the same but its the armor that the arrows effect so these numbers are accurate at least for the math I am presenting here. )
Long range + Stand and shoot (15/2) = 7.5 hits
T2 (15/3) = 5 wounds
T3 (7.5/2) = 3.75 wounds
T4 (7.5/3) = 2.5 wounds
T5+ (7.5/6) = 1.25 wounds

Short Range (30/3) 10 hits
T2 (20/3) = 6.66 wounds
T3 (10/2) = 5 wounds
T4 (10/3) = 3 wounds
T5 (10/6) = 1.66 wounds


Also Here is some quick math I did to help narrow things down further based on the saves that you might see.

These are based on what it would take to kill a 40man unit subtract to flavor also to use this chart base it off what save they are getting after the minuses from armor piercing that you are doing. I.E if you have a -1 and are shooting a 2+ save then you need the math for how many wounds it takes to kill a 3+ unit.

3+ 80 shots to kill
4+ 60 shots to kill
5+ 46.66 shots to kill
6+ 40 shots to kill

hope this helps you make your choices I still need to look over the points vs rewards and do that math a little more but this is the majority of what I have worked out so far.

Way Watchers 15 man samples

Long range / stand and shoot Aimed shot
(30/3) = 10 hits
T2 (20/3) = 6.66 wounds
T3 (10/2) = 5 wounds ( magic number )
T4 (10/3) = 3.33 wounds ( magic number )
T5 ( 10/6) = 1.66 wounds

Short range
(75/6) = 12.5 hits
T2 ( 20/3) = 8.33 wounds
T3 (12.5/2) = 6.25 wounds ( magic number )
T4 (12.5/3) = 4.16 wounds ( magic number )
T5 (12.5/6) = 2.08 wounds

So these are the numbers for way watchers I wanted to do these to see how much damage they were going to do in a game. The reason T3 and T4 are the magic numbers here is because most of the heavy cav in the game is T3 or T4. Empire knights / Britonnian knights / High elf dragon helms etc on the T3 common side and chaos Skull crushers / Demigryph knights / Morn fang Cav / Black knights or blood knights on the T4 side. I wanted to see if it was best to start these units in close range so you could delete a unit from the table. If you start them in close range and get to go first you will do on average 11.25 wounds to T3 cav and 7.49 wounds to T4 cav. Vs T4 Cav that would still let one or two through depending on if they are running 3 or 4 man units. If you go second and they get a first turn charge then you are only doing 5 wounds to T3 cav ( typically half a unit still not bad ) or 3.33 wounds to T4. So in most cases you are going to want to go for the ballsy move of scouting to short range vs T3 cav and hold off Vs T4 cav as even just a few models from a charging Knight unit of some kind will normally break the Way watchers even with there two attacks a piece. ( the math on that looks something like this given a optimal situation where you get 5 guys in the front rank and 5 in the back rank nets you 15 attacks. you will hit 11.25 with ASF re-rolls wound 3.75 times at this point you only have a 1/6 chance to get through the armor so you will net 0.625 total wounds. If the two guys they have left are there champ and standard they will have a static 2 combat rez regardless of weather or not they get any attacks through. )

Fast shot
Long range / Stand and shoot
(30/2) 15 hits
T2 (30/3) 10 wounds
T3 (15/2) = 7.5 wounds
T4 (15/3) = 5 wounds
T5 (15/6) = 2.5 wounds

Short Range
(60/3) 20 hits
T2 (40/3) 13.3 wounds
T3 (20/2) 10 wounds
T4 (20/3) 6.66 wounds
T5 (20/6) 3.33 wounds


Looking at these numbers I think that even though they are the best option for dealing with hordes Its still going to be a problem. If you are running vs Skaven or Tomb kings or Vampire counts or say Orc's and Goblins you are going to have a hard time taking those numbers down to size before they hit the lines. Also 3 of those armies have some decent artillery. Doom Divers / Skull catapults / Poisons wind mortars / Lightning cannons/ doom fire rockets or plague catapults. All of these are big problems for a elite army of T3 elves with zero saves. I say elite because our basic warrior costs almost as much a basic warrior of chaos model. Wood elves are going to be fielding like 60 to 80 model armies. Those ares have that in two units Hell my vampire counts run two 35 man units of skeletons and a unit of zombies both of them are going to get across the board because your shots will be dedicate to all the big nasty's in the list to mess with those for the first two turns. That needs a solution and I have not found it yet looking through the book. let me know what you come up with. Even so I think Ill be running close to 30 Way watchers. I really want a tree man but I am not sure its in the cards.

I have not cemented any of my conclusions in place these are just my initial thoughts Id love feed back on what others are thinking of taking.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Narahan »

Thanks very much this is really useful.

One little thing to remember is the point cost of arrows. If you're running units of 20 gg for instance the difference between trueflight and bodkins is 40 points! which buys you more gg, unit upgrades or it can be spent elsewhere. This scales to a scary degree when you make bigger units. A small point but it needs to be considered.

Again thanks for the post.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Billthesurly »

Furyou Miko wrote:Arcane Bodkins (anti-tank)
Hagbane Tips (poison)
Moonfire Shot (Lawbane flaming)
Starfire Shafts (Chaosbane flaming)
Swiftshiver Shards (Machinegun)
Trueflight Arrows (Shoot round corners)
Now that's the kind of research I can wrap my head around! :thumbsup:

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Trueflights are going to be the way to go for me. I like to play a very mobile, fast table force and the idea that I can move - forward or back, shoot at long range, through any kind of cover (including intervening friendly or enemy troops) just rocks my world. Attend;

I can start off 30" away from anything I can see and hit it on a 3+. I can put a skirmish line of scouts between me and enemy archers which instantly gives him a -3 to hit me. (Long range and hard cover from intervening skirmishers.) I hit on 3+. 30 archers are going to hit 20 times more or less ALL THE TIME! I can advance or back away, no big. I can drown targets in arrows from just about anywhere on the table and still find the little chinks in their armor. Sweet. All of my archers having armor piercing and hitting on 3+ (at least) at any range is a game changer. "Reach out, reach out and touch someone." Early and often. :evil:

My plan? Trueflights and USE THE POSSIBILITIES! Put terrain and/or Tk or ranked up EG between me and the enemy and SLOSH 'EM! Place my killy units (Five Wildriders - 15 attacks, ASF, S5 AP! Oh, Oh, Oh, Ooo baby, Ooo baby!) in places where they can spring ambushes on advancing enemy flanks and if they don't advance pour the black rain on em.

Sorry. I'm over-excited. Bad for someone of my age. I gotta go take a cold shower. :smoke:
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by RedPanda »

Yea I plan to use mainly Trueflights and Hagbane as my common arrows, that and naked archers.

The other ones I see it in strike units that serves a particular purpose, so maybe a unit of Glade Riders and scouts here and there.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Wakthilatas »

Thank you for this!
Very helpfull.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by ohmss »

Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like you put that Swift Shot hits 100% of the time with it's -1 for multi-shot modifier.

- At BS5, that's hitting on a 3+ which is 66% of the time for each shot.
- Each then has a 59% chance to wound against T1
- Wouldn't you then figure the armor save percentages off of that, doubling it since you're doing two wounds?

I don't think it matters in the long run because your Waywatchers chart is still going to show the same thing:
  • You should always multi shot against 5+AS and 6+AS, no matter the toughness or hit modifier.
    Shooting at a 4+AS, you should only Accurate shot if your to hit modifier is more than -1, no matter the toughness.
    Shooting at 3+AS, 2+AS, and 1+AS, always Accurate shot, no matter the toughness.
Of course you should always multi shot against no armor models, but you didn't need this chart or me to tell you that.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by krael »

Talk about brute force numbercruncing :)
Way to go, Onyx King, a topic to my heart, Thanks!
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by boredoom »

Thanks, but could you unlock the spreadsheet so we can create our own condensed presentations? As it is I can't even hide columns....
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by ansacs »

Thank you very much. This is a very nice piece of information. I would definitely say this is a must know for pretty much any WE player planning to use bows, so all of them.

Interestingly you actually made me realize a large unit of GG with a mage w/ hand of glory could actually be useful.

One of the really incredible things about the true flight arrows is that with skirmishers you can march, free reform, and shoot with no negative modifiers and through forests (like say the 1d3+1 forest you scatter in the board center due to the acorn and your mandatory wood). This makes it practically impossible for anything but a flying critter to actually catch you. So for a 20 man deepwood scouts you can kill off ~7 to 5 guys from most horde style anvils a turn and force them to trudge across the entire board through your forests (you did take venom thickets right? Laugh like a Dark Elf when a 100 skaven slave unit has to march around it or take ~33 casualties). I think the biggest use for true flight arrows is going to be to draw the opponent into the forests so that they take dangerous terrain tests (our deadliest weapon against skaven slave blocks!) or to give us advantageous assaults where we have dryads or EG partly in forests.

Another interesting use for TF arrows is that in a gunline battle we have a unique advantage in that we can cause the opponent to "loose" every other turn of shooting or force them to move. While I still might not recommend a gunline battle with a bunch of quarrelers (using this method you will come out even but they cost less, so...yuck, unless you have some serious cover/magic to help) this can make all the difference against other archers.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Lowb »

Actually there's a FAQ for the BRB stating that a natural one always fails for wounding aswell. So no auto-wounding sadly :(

Page 42 – Shooting, Roll To Wound.
Add the following sentence to the end of the fourth paragraph:
‘A To Wound roll of a 1 on a D6 always fails, regardless of any
dice modifiers.’

Page 51 – Close Combat, Roll To Wound.
Add the following sentence to the end of the fourth paragraph:
‘A To Wound roll of a 1 on a D6 always fails, regardless of any
dice modifiers.’
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