Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

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Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

Welcome, Children of the Forest. Come closer and examine these exquisite arrows our great archers have been making…


Introduction

I have made a table to evaluate the effectiveness of each of our Enchanted Arrows, and of the Waywatchers’ Hawk-eyed Archer ability. I have accounted for different enemy Toughnesses, Armour Saves and negative To Hit-modifiers.

This ranges from Toughness 1 to 5: Anything T5 or more is Wounded on a 6+ by our S3 Asrai Longbows (or 5+ by the Moonfire Shot/Starfire Shafts against the appropriate army), so treat anything T6+ as T5.

The Armour Saves range from 6+ to 1+. A model without an Armour Save should be counted as having a 6+ for the purposes of this table, as our Arrows all negate at least one point of Armour.

Any possible Ward Saves were not taken into account here, as none of the Arrows have a way of modifying them. The only exception being Regeneration which can be countered by the Moonfire Shot/Starfire Shafts because they are Flaming Attacks.

The To Hit-modifiers range from +2 to -4. The first table was made for Glade Guard/Glade Riders/Deepwood Scouts and is based around BS4. The second table was made specifically for Waywatchers at BS5. If you are taking Characters, keep in mind that the conclusions made here may not reflect them correctly, as they have a higher Ballistic Skill. The negative To Hit-modifiers only go up to -4 because that means our BS4 units are hitting on 7+. That’s already moving, shooting at long range and at something behind hard cover! I highly doubt there will be a lot of occasions at which you will be even more handicapped (I can think of spells such as Iceshard Blizzard and special Rules such as Skirmisher). Remember that the Poison special rule (from Hagbane Tips) is negated when you need a 7+ To Hit. The positive modifiers similarly only go up to +2, as that would mean all Arrow types (even Swiftshiver Shards with their inherent -1 To Hit penalty), will be hitting on 2+. The same range is used for Waywatchers, except they hit on 2+ all the time with a +1 bonus To Hit (really, already with no modifiers if you are using the Accurate Shot). Hence, there is no row for +2 To Hit with Waywatchers. They also hit on 6+ instead of 7+ at -4 To Hit.


Explanation

For clarification, it’s worth noting the negative To Hit-modifiers are listed as any additional modifiers. This means that the “No Mods To Hit” row with Swiftshiver Shards or the Waywatchers' Swift Shot does indeed already have the -1 To Hit built in from Multiple Shots. “-1 To Hit” is then actually -2 To Hit, and so on. Equally, “+1 To Hit”, is in that case actually a shot without modifiers.

Another thing deserving explanation is that there are rows for To Hit-modifiers on the Trueflight Arrows. The Arrows are calculated to always Hit on 3+, regardless of modifiers, but the different rows are just so it is possible to compare at what point the Trueflight Arrows become better than other options that do have to take modifiers.

Lastly, I have counted the Moonfire Shot/Starfire Shafts as always getting +1 To Wound, otherwise they would be no different to Regular (Unenchanted) Arrows, bar the Flaming Attacks of course. This does mean that if you intend to use the results in this table, you have to be up against the correct faction (Moonfire for Order, Starfire for Destruction).


How to read the tables

There are five tabs in the spreadsheet (or pages in the PDF). Each has a table with lots of numbers in it. The first two are “Damage – Enchanted Arrows” and “Damage – Hawk-eyed Archer”. These can be used in the following way:

“Damage – Enchanted Arrows”:
Read this table when you want to find out how much damage a volley of your shots is going to do. You only really need to look at coloured cells, the white cells are just there for calculations. The numbers in the coloured cells (or all cells in the printable version) here represent the damage per model. For example, if you are using Trueflight Arrows and target an enemy unit with T3 and a 6+ ASv (Empire Halberdiers, maybe?), you should cause 33,33% Unsaved Wounds. This means a 10-strong unit of archers should do 3,33 Unsaved Wounds to the Halberdiers, which obviously still has to be rounded down. So, on average, they should actually inflict 3 casualties.
Swiftshiver Shards are a special case. At BS4 they hit our Halberdiers with “No Mods To Hit” (which, remember, is actually -1) at 100%. This is special because each model has two shots. It means they really only have a 50% chance To Hit, but have two shots each. Looking at the table, they should cause Unsaved Wounds to the Halberdiers 50% of the time. That actually means that out of a 10-strong unit, they should cause 5 Unsaved Wounds, even though they shot 20 times. So not 10 Unsaved Wounds! That is what I mean with damage per model. Whether this 10-strong unit is 10 Glade Guard, 10 Glade Riders, or 10 Deepwood Scouts, the damage caused is the same.

“Damage – Hawk-eyed Archer”:
The Waywatchers’ table is read in the same manner. Choose your To Hit-modifier and your target’s Toughness/Armour Save and see how much damage you do per model. The same explanation as for the Swiftshiver Shards should be applied to the Swift Shot ability. This time, shooting at Halberdiers with “No Mods To Hit” (which, again, is actually -1) will net you 66,67% Unsaved Wounds, meaning 10 Waywatchers should kill 6,67 Halberdiers (rounded up to 7). From the trends in this table you can see there is a clear-cut answer to when you should use which arrow, which I will mention in the “Conclusions” section at the end. The way you see this is with the red- and purple-coloured cells, but you don’t need them to determine the damage you do, so ignore them for these first two tables.

The last three tables are “Glade Guard”, “Glade Riders” and “Deepwood Scouts”. These tables take into account the relative point costs of each of the Enchanted Arrow types. They are essentially the same as the “Damage – Enchanted Arrows” table, but each result is multiplied by a factor depending on the point cost of the upgrade. For example, a Glade Guard model upgraded with Moonfire Shot costs the equivalent of 8 Skaven Slaves, while an unupgraded Glade Guard costs only 6 Skaven Slaves. What you will find is that the damage done by a Glade Guard with Moonfire Shot in the “Glade Guard” table, will be 6/8ths of the damage done by him or her in the “Damage – Enchanted Arrows” table. This means that the last three tables are not accurate in determining the damage you should do per model and as such is not really useful on the board. What it is useful for, however, is in making your army lists. Because of the factor, all percentages show the damage potential point for point. What this means is that in the last three tables, each shot costs the same amount of points. 6 Skaven Slaves for Glade Guard, 9,5 for Glade Riders, and 6,5 for Deepwood Scouts. So, if you want to see what the best Arrow type is for its point cost, these tables are what you should use.

The way to do this and decide what to include in your army list, is to first choose which unit you want in your army. Pick between Glade Guard, Glade Riders and Deepwood Scouts and go to their appropriate table. Next, choose a role for your unit with Enchanted Arrows. Say, you have chosen Deepwood Scouts and already have a lot to deal with Armour (Waywatchers, Lore of Metal, etc.) and won’t be needing Monster Hunters but rather still lack a unit capable of just mowing down standard Core infantry (which can be an important job too!) . Take the Toughness and Armour Save value of that approximate unit, in this case let’s continue with our T3, 6+ ASv Halberdiers. Look in the column that describes those statistics. This time, you should focus on the red and purple cells. Any cells coloured purple indicate that Arrow type is the sole best contender for those conditions. In this example, Swiftshiver Shards would be the best if you are not planning on getting many negative To Hit-modifiers, or if you are boosting the To Hit capability with Magic (Hand of Glory/Enchanted Blades/Harmonic Convergence). Trueflight Arrows seem to be the best if you are planning on encountering a lot of To Hit-modifiers (which may be because of your very mobile playstyle, for example). Any cells coloured red indicate that Arrow type is the best contender for those conditions, but shares the top spot with another Arrow type, meaning there are multiple Arrows equally suited for this job. In this case, both Hagbane Tips and Trueflight Arrows are equally good if you are at -1 To Hit (at long range, maybe?).


Magical hexes and augments

The way to see the effect of any Magic, is to count the spell effect as additional modifiers. There are two options I can think of right now: a Toughness modifier and a To Hit-modifier:
If the Toughness of your target unit is modified, simply count that unit’s Toughness as being higher or lower. For example, if Elven infantry (T3), has Wyssan’s Wildform cast on them (+1 T), you’d have to place the infantry in the T4 column. If they have the Withering cast on them for -2 T, you'd have to place them in the T1 column (Seems pretty self-explanatory, really).

If a spell modifies your ability To Hit, do a similar thing. For example, you are shooting a target at long range behind soft cover. You would usually be at -2 To Hit, but, smart as you are, you have cast Hand of Glory on the shooting unit. And the D3 result nets you +3 BS! In that case, add +3 To Hit to your current situation, bringing your -2 up to a +1! Note, that there isn't really a way to depict how Harmonic Convergence helps the shooting. It’s possible to calculate, but would require way too much work.


Conclusions

If you don’t feel like figuring out how the whole thing works after all, I have written down some preliminary findings, by Arrow type. These are just suggestions for what to take in your army depending on their assigned role.

1) Unenchanted (Regular) Arrows: As expected, these aren't the best at anything. Looking at the last three tables, we can see all Enchanted Arrow types have at least some benefit, so – to spend points optimally – you should always upgrade your archers with Enchanted Arrows. The one use I do see for keeping them unupgraded is that you can combine it with the Banner of Eternal Flame to get cheaper Flaming Attacks. Alternatively, you could use these if, for some reason, you need your arrows to be non-Magical.

2) Hagbane Tips: Poison makes these bad boys the absolute best against anything T5+ (except maybe against a 1+ ASv, but what has that? Even then, they are not far off from the best). They are also very good against T4 without magical help, and are generally quite resistant to To Hit-modifiers (positive or negative), because they will always Wound on 6+ while rolling To Hit. This effect is negated at -4 To Hit, though, so make sure you never need to take that many modifiers. Hagbane Tips seem to only be mediocre against T3, but notice how they are still the most effective against T3 with a 6+/5+ and usually a 4+ Armour Save. This encapsulates most infantry in the game. I think these are VERY good overall, especially considering you can do things like shoot down War Machines on turn one with them.

3) Trueflight Arrows: These are consistently good against T4 or lower only if you would normally be at -2 To Hit or worse. Not to say that they are bad otherwise, but they wouldn’t really be worth spending extra points on, or rather, the points would be better spent on a different Arrow type. I can see these being very useful as a replacement of the archers in our old book, where we didn’t get a To Hit-penalty for moving and shooting. Shooting at T4 or lower is what we did with them anyway (or, that’s what I did at least), and Trueflight Arrows let you keep the mobile feel of the army. They also let you keep your archers very safe (long range, moving around the enemy, hiding behind cover, etc.) Keep in mind, Trueflight arrows take no negative modifiers To Hit, but can get positive modifiers. They only benefit from +1 To Hit, though, which makes them ideal candidates for Enchanted Blades/Harmonic Convergence but not so much for Hand of Glory.

4) Moonfire Shot/Starfire Shafts: These Arrows don’t really excel at anything, which surprises me. I thought their +1 To Wound would be huge, just situational (depending on the faction). It turns out they are kind of decent all-around, so could be useful if you know which faction you are fighting (Order/Destruction) and don’t really want your archers to be specialised at anything. I wouldn't advise this though. These calculations have made me realise it’s much better to specialise your archers for certain roles in the army. Make sure you do have all bases covered and have redundancy. The one saving grace for these Arrows, is that they come with the Flaming Attacks special rule, which could be useful to ping off any enemy Regeneration. If you are planning to use your archers in this way, I recommend going for Starfire Shafts. Pretty much all Regeneration is on units from the Forces of Destruction (Trolls, Chimeras, Hellpit Abominations, Beasts of Nurgle, …) and as such, getting +1 To Wound on them will ensure you at least get that one Flaming Wound through to strip Regeneration (after which you can bombard the unit with other Arrows of your choosing).

5) Swiftshiver Shards: Multiple Shot (2) Arrows look to be just ‘okay’ in normal conditions, honestly. As we will mostly be shooting at -1 To Hit (long range or moving), there are other – better – options. They only excel against T3 or lower enemies with little to no Armour while not suffering any additional negative modifiers To Hit. One noticeable thing with them, though, is that they lose a lot of their shots when rolling To Hit without bonuses. Because there is so much fluctuation, these Arrows seem to be prime candidates for Magical buffs which improve your chances To Hit. The ones that immediately come to mind are Hand of Glory (Lore of High Magic), Enchanted Blades (Lore of Metal) and Harmonic Convergence (Lore of Heavens) but there may be more. +2 To Hit makes them amazing against anything up to T4, but even +1 To Hit gets them some much needed punch. Keep in mind though, that you can never really rely on Magic.

6) Arcane Bodkins: These are great against enemies with very high Armour Saves (we are talking 3+ or better), which was to be expected, but only when not taking too many To Hit-modifiers. Trueflight Arrows are mostly as good or better when suffering -2 To Hit and straight up better at -3 or worse. This is against T4 or lower though. Against T5+, the clear winner is still Hagbane Tips, even against extreme Armour Saves of 2+. The only case in which Arcane Bodkins are better, is when the opposing T5+ unit has a 1+ ASv and you are not taking many penalties To Hit. Either way, these Arrows are a good choice if you need to hunt down knights or Monstrous Cavalry, though this role would be filled better by Waywatchers as they have a higher BS and ignore all Armour while only being 3 points more expensive than Glade Guard with Arcane Bodkins.

For Waywatchers’ Hawk-eyed Archer ability, it is clear when you should use each type of Shot: you can see the diagonal on the table. Regardless of Toughness, if you are shooting at anything with ASv 6+ or worse, always use Swift Shot. If you are shooting at anything with ASv 3+ or better, always use Accurate Shot. For ASv 5+, use Swift Shot unless you are seriously handicapped To Hit (-3 or worse). For ASv 4+, again use Swift Shot unless you are at at least -2 To Hit.


I sincerely hope this was useful! If anyone spots any mistakes, just let me know and I’ll fix them. Any feedback is welcome of course! There are 4 attached documents: a Microsoft Excel 2010 version and a PDF version of both the full and the more printer-friendly documents.


EDIT 1: Did some compatibility and security checks with the document and reuploaded it.
EDIT 2: Added the Waywatcher table, and some text to the wall above. Plus some extremely minor cosmetic changes to the spreadsheet.
EDIT 3: Added Unenchanted (Regular) Arrows to the table, as it is useful to consider if the difference in damage is worth paying points for the upgrades.
EDIT 4-6: Spelling.
EDIT 7: Correct names of Arrows + PDF version.
EDIT 8-9: Small text edit.
EDIT 10: Added bonuses To Hit alongside -4 penalty, to be able to see the effects Magic augments/hexes could have. Additionally, corrected the Swift Shot of Waywatchers (the -1 To Hit for Multiple Shots wasn’t taken into account). Obviously edited some text above.
EDIT 11: Fixed an issue where Poison was still being applied while requiring 7+ To Hit. Also increased Toughness range to include everything (1 to 5+). Minor change to text above.
EDIT 12: Recoloured a few of cells from purple to red.
EDIT 13: Made new tabs factoring the relative point costs. Also fixed an issue where Moonfire Shot/Starfire Shafts were auto-Wounding against T1, though this is not possible due to a GW FAQ. Additionally, created a more printer-friendly document and made the spreadsheet editable as was requested. Edited and added text above.
EDIT 14: Noted that Ogre Kingdoms is not a Force of Destruction.
Attachments
Enchanted Arrows & Hawk-eyed Archer - Printable.xlsx
Printer-friendly Microsoft Excel 2010 version.
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Enchanted Arrows & Hawk-eyed Archer - Printable.pdf
Printer-friendly PDF version.
(632.56 KiB) Downloaded 487 times
Enchanted Arrows & Hawk-eyed Archer - Full.xlsx
Full Microsoft Excel 2010 version.
(252.88 KiB) Downloaded 369 times
Enchanted Arrows & Hawk-eyed Archer - Full.pdf
Full PDF version.
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Last edited by brechttomme on 21 May 2014, 00:44, edited 14 times in total.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Gerner »

Noo, where did the attachment go?! :(
Feel like helping me out? Look at my army list thread: http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25040 :)
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

It's back! I'm sorry for the momentary interruption! :confused:
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Malkrit »

Very cool and very useful. Thanks and good job! :thumbsup:
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by gingersmali »

great job, hag-bane look very strong especially when you factor in there cost. Hang bane and lore of metal here we come...
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Pigey »

Thanks a bunch!
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

You're welcome! Can anybody confirm the names of the Arrow types? I really feel as if some of them may be wrong, and it's kind of embarrassing... :o
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

This is sensational.

A .pdf version would be useful, though.
'Learn well Nature's sole law, for it is thus: Hunt or be hunted, kill or be killed. Know too that the only reason anything ever dies is because it no longer deserves to live! Should have fought harder, should have grown stronger.'
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Furyou Miko »

Arcane Bodkins (anti-tank)
Hagbane Tips (poison)
Moonfire Shot (Lawbane flaming)
Starfire Shafts (Chaosbane flaming)
Swiftshiver Shards (Machinegun)
Trueflight Arrows (Shoot round corners)
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

Ioreth Starmantle wrote: A .pdf version would be useful, though.
Your wish is my command! :)
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by ring87 »

Dude, that was a great service you just did. All that work for the good of all Asari. You should be awarded the Golden Arrow. If such a thing existed.

Thank you.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by gingersmali »

golden arrow XD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8NaWT0WvEE sorry if off topic
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

ring87 wrote:Dude, that was a great service you just did. All that work for the good of all Asari. You should be awarded the Golden Arrow. If such a thing existed.
Thanks! Well, we could always ask gwh to sticky the tread or even put it up as one of the first updated articles for the LEAF. :p Here I am, shamelessly praising my own post, but it seems others are genuinely finding it useful... :nod: Maybe we should wait a bit more though, in case anyone spots mistakes or would like more elaboration. After all, in the how-to-write-a-LEAF-article-article, it says to wait two weeks for feedback. Also, it may not actually be an "article" per se and more of a useful chart to judge effectiveness.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by gingersmali »

If you have to time, enjoy probability, adding in some spell effect for some of the likely combos could be cool. But mainly thanks again for doing all you have.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Ariell »

Nicely done document :thumbsup:

So hagbane arrows is the way to go to kill monsters and everything else also ^^, trueflight for the tactical advantage and ability to hide behind stuff and still be dangerous and waywatchers to kill the high armour units.
I am thinking to give all of my heroes and lords arcane bodkins arrows since they already have high BS and will most likely hit the target so the best spent points for them should be to reduce the armour.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

brechttomme wrote: Your wish is my command! :)
In that case I want a pony and an ice-cream too!


Er... I mean thank you. and thank you again for doing all this. I think preserving it for posterity as a sticky or LEAF thingie is certainly called for.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

gingersmali wrote:If you have to time, enjoy probability, adding in some spell effect for some of the likely combos could be cool.
Done! Well, I just added more modifiers To Hit: it now ranges from -4 to +2, which should cover spell effects nicely. I am studying engineering after all, so I kind of have to like probability, huh? Though this really isn't even remotely similar to what we do in class, I do enjoy it if it's got anything to do with Warhammer. Maths is fun! :p

I did notice that there's going to have to be some extreme zooming in to read anything on the PDF file...
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Renufus »

This needs to be sticked and/or posted in the Leaf and/or and laminated so it can be posted in every Wood Elf player's bathroom.

Thanks so much for doing this.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by ring87 »

What arrows do people think is best on Ambushing Glade Riders? Short Range and Moving.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by OfTheThorn »

ring87 wrote:What arrows do people think is best on Ambushing Glade Riders? Short Range and Moving.
I am going to be trying the +1 to Wound vs. Destruction flaming arrows on my Glade Riders for a while. 5s and 6s wounding high-toughness regenerating monsters should go a long way to softening them up for my poisoned shooting!
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

brechttomme wrote: Done! Well, I just added more modifiers To Hit: it now ranges from -4 to +2, which should cover spell effects nicely.
Just as I suspected. Even a small to-hit buff instantly makes multishot the best choice against 75% of the models in the game.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by OfTheThorn »

So with the Starfire/Moonfire Shafts, they get +1 to wound. This is strictly better than +1 strength when it comes to wounding high toughness opponents, as it makes 5's and 6's auto-successes, per the Wound Table, is that correct?
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by brechttomme »

OfTheThorn wrote:So with the Starfire/Moonfire Shafts, they get +1 to wound. This is strictly better than +1 strength when it comes to wounding high toughness opponents, as it makes 5's and 6's auto-successes, per the Wound Table, is that correct?
Correct, and the auto-Wounding on 5+ is taken into account in the table. It's obvious that Poisoned shots are still better against high Toughness models though.
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by OfTheThorn »

brechttomme wrote:
OfTheThorn wrote:So with the Starfire/Moonfire Shafts, they get +1 to wound. This is strictly better than +1 strength when it comes to wounding high toughness opponents, as it makes 5's and 6's auto-successes, per the Wound Table, is that correct?
Correct, and the auto-Wounding on 5+ is taken into account in the table. It's obvious that Poisoned shots are still better against high Toughness models though.
Definitely. Sorry, I meant for regenerating high Toughness models (specifically hellpits). Looks like my Glade Riders will be running Starfire, with my main block of GG running poison for when Regen is gone. :)
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Re: Enchanted Arrows: What do I choose?

Post by CauCaSus »

Or take moonfire on characters since you only need to wound once to cancel the regen.
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