Kinband of Ioreth's Hollow - an army blog

[godswearhats]

Spellweaver, Level 4, Lore of Shadow, Elven Steed, Book of Ashur, Talisman of Endurance
Glade Captain, BSB, HoDA, Charmed Shield, Opal Amulet
Waystalker, Bow of Loren

4x 10 Glade Guard with Trueflight, Mus
2x 6 Wild Riders with shields
8 Sisters of the Thorn, Full Command, Lichebone Pennant
3 Warhawk Riders
5 Wardancers
2x Great Eagle
2x 9 Waywatchers

Total 2,499.

Setup

The Wizard goes into the Sisters of the Thorn. The unit will have a 3++ vs Magic due to the Lichebone Pennant, and the wizard will have a 4++ vs the dreaded Death snipes. I take Full Command to run the unit in 3x3 and protect the wizard in the dead center (kind of like how the Bretonnians do it). With them being Fast Cav I can easily reform them later in the game. The BSB goes into a unit of Glade Guard. The Waystalker deploys in a unit of Waywatchers.

Deployment Order

Forest
Great Eagle x2
Wardancers
Warhawk Riders
Wild Riders x2
Sisters of the Thorn
Glade Guard x4
Wizard & BSB
Waywatchers x2
Waystalker

Basic tactics

Keep the wizard bunker away from everything and ideally in a forest to get +6 to cast everything - use the Withering to weaken high Toughness monsters, Miasma and Curse of Anraheir to control movement. Use the Waystalker to kill enemy L4 as quickly as possible, then focus on supporting characters - BSB, Warrior Priests, Engineers, L2s and so forth. Glade Guard target order is chaff, Withered monsters, then other units. Warhawk Riders primary target is War Machines and infantry / cavalry characters (with the KB). Wild Riders can put flanking pressure on, or hold back until enemy units are weakened by bow fire to finish up. Waywatchers primary target is obviously heavy armor, and then switch to multishot mode to deal with large blocks. Wardancers protect the Glade Guard and come in late game to provide help with combat res.

Thoughts

This is a fairly balanced list which should be admitted under pretty much any comp system (hence no Sisters of Twilight because a lot of comp bans special characters), while still being one of the most competitive builds I can come up with. An argument can be made that it relies on magic to deal with high toughness ("hey, why not take Hagbane Tips?"), which is true to an extent. However, being able to drop 80 shots per turn with AP on any Monster, even without the Withering, is going to hurt it. And for those games where I don't roll Withering, there's Mind Razor (odds of not getting one or the other: 1 in every 1296 games). I'm not too worried about losing the Wizard, because saturating with bow fire (~80 shots per turn, plus a HoDA) can still really hurt high Toughness stuff. You can use the Eagles and Warhawk Riders to help prevent unnecessary charges from the Wild Riders (which is why I don't bother trying to keep them in a Leadership bubble or give them any of the magic banners to help with Frenzy). Also, with it being MSU and all infantry / cavalry, there are no good targets for War Machines - the bunker of Sisters is the obvious target but with a 4++, the odds are definitely in our favor of surviving the 1-2 shots we'll take before the War Machine is engaged in close combat.

[pip]

It definitely looks like a solid list. If its in prep for Wetcoast I don't remember how important banners are to the scenarios this year. But 1 possibility is drop 2 waywatchers for 4 standards.

[godswearhats]

Wetcoast will be a much different list based on my models painted.

[godswearhats]

Having played a couple of games with the Waystalker and BoL, I'm probably going to drop him from my lists. His use is quite situational, and he struggles against anything T4 or higher and/or with a ward save. I think the points are better off spent elsewhere, on something more consistent.

[Kristian]

Yeah I see the waystalker as a gimmick really. A second unit of hawks would probably be much better for assassinating characters than this guy, and can fill other roles as well. They also give you more options in deployment as well.

[godswearhats]

Two more 2500pt battles this weekend, both with interesting lessons. Check out the two "Lessons Learned" sections if this is too long to read :-)

Battle 1 - vs Empire

The first was with a list of models that I had been using with the previous book that were fully painted, minus one Eagle (I played with what I had brought with me, with no proxies)

Treeman Ancient, L4
Glade Captain, HoDA, Opal Amulet, Charmed Shield, Great Weapon, BSB
Spellsinger, L2, Lore of Metal, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon

10 Glade Guard, Musician, Champion, Hagbane Tips
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Hagbane Tips
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Trueflight
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Starfire Shafts
16 Dryads, Champion

6 Tree Kin, Champion
5 Wardancers
5 Wild Riders, Standard Bearer

2x Treeman
Great Eagle

His list was Empire, and while I won't have the details exactly right:

Wizard, L4, Life, Dispel Scroll (and probably a ward save, but it never came up)
General (w/Runefang and OTS), BSB and Warrior Priest, mounted in a unit of 12 Inner Circle knights
Hero on a Pegasus
2x 5 Empire Knights
4 Demigryphs
3 Demigryphs
2 Steam Tanks
1 unit of archers (wizard bunker)

We only had time to play 4 turns. Rather than a full battle report, I'll give a very quick overview and some insights that I got.

He deployed in a way that jammed up his big bus of knights so they never saw combat nor did anything valuable the whole game. I avoided most of one flank, which kept one of his units of demigryphs out of the game (they would have been able to charge turn 5). The Wild Riders were able to wound one steam tank before getting ground out, which allowed a Treeman to go in and Tree Whack it to death in one turn. Glade Guard were pretty much ineffective the whole game, as you might expect against 1+ AS. Dryads were completely ineffective, being held up by Empire Knights the whole game. Treekin wiped out 5 Empire Knights and failed a 5 inch overrun into the Demigryphs, which meant they got countercharged - however, they held up four two rounds of combat, allowing my Treemen to charge in and support them. Magic did very little all game (I rolled 4, 2, 4, 6 for winds), although he got a big phase that allowed him to heal up his other Steam Tank and prevent me from scoring those points (still would have been a tie tho - we were playing +/- 300 points is a tie).

OK, that's the summary. Lessons learned.

• Dryads, even with Hatred, are pretty meh all around. They need magic support, and once you're at that point, there are better things that can do all the same jobs. I'll experiment with them a bit more, but they are firmly on the bench in any all-comers list that I write.
• Treemen (without Strangleroots) are an OK choice. S5 can still hurt a lot of things, and for anything with a 1+ AS you have Tree Whack. T6/W5 keeps them alive against a lot of things
• Treeman Ancient is so-so. Very survivable against everything but cannon, but Lore of Life is not as beneficial a lore as it used to be for the army - without the S6 Treemen to do the heavy lifting, you've got little to no punch. I will not take Lore of Life as a L4 lore in an all-comers list again, which likely benches the Treeman Ancient for the foreseeable future.
• I feel like Hagbane is wasteful of points against some armies (i.e. you don't get real value from it), whereas Trueflight is always useful. I will try Hagbane out some more, but for the moment it is benched in my all-comers list.
• Treekin are pretty solid as an anvil. Being able to take a charge from a 4-strong unit of Demigryphs and survive, not break and be able to fight back for a further two turns (before dying to the man) is no mean feat. I think they will come into their own against infantry, light cavalry or monstrous infantry - anything with a 3+ AS or worse.

Battle 2 - vs Lizardmen

Spellweaver, L4 Shadow, Steed, Book of Ashur, Talisman of Endurance, General
Glade Captain, BSB, HoDA, Charmed Shield, Opal Amulet, Great Weapon

3x 10 Glade Guard, Musician, Trueflight
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Starfire Shafts

3x 6 Wild Riders, Shields
8 Sisters of the Thorn, Full Command, Lichebone Pennant
3 Warhawk Riders

2x 9 Waywatchers
2x Great Eagle

His list, from memory:

Slann, L4, Loremaster (High Magic), 2 Extra Channel Dice, Channeling Staff, General, BSB
Scar Veteran, GW, Egg of Quango, not sure what else
Scar Veteran, Carnosaur, Armor of Destiny
Skink Priest, L1, Beasts, Dispel Scroll

10 Skink Skirmishers, Blowpipes
11 Skinks, Kroxigor
10 Skinks, Kroxigor
~30 Saurus, Spears, Shields, Full command

2x 5 Chameleon Skinks
Bastiladon, Solar Engine

2x Ancient Stegadon

So, a bit of a Monster Mash type list. He deployed his big units and monsters fairly centrally, with the Skrox units on either flank and a Chameleon skink unit in support of each of those. I deployed one unit of Wild Riders on the left flank, all Glade Guard between them and the center, Sisters on the right center (behind my free forest) and the rest on the right flank. Waywatchers on left and right just in front of my deployment zone in forests.

Turn 1 he pushed forward, killed most of one unit of Waywatchers with Soulquench and otherwise did very little. My turn 1 I charged his Skrox units on either flank with a unit of Wild Riders each, and charged a Stegadon with the 3rd unit of Wild Riders. Mindrazor allowed me to kill the Stegadon and overrun out of charge range from his Carnosaur. I had to charge my Warhawk Riders into this Saurus unit in order to make a charge with my Wild Riders into his Steg - they chipped a wound off his Skink priest but I was unable to KB his Scar Vet. Wiped out both Skrox units and overran down the flanks close to the back of the board. Trueflight arrows killed one unit of Chameleons, and an Eagle took out two more before dying.

Turn 2 I fled with my wizard bunker away from a Carnosaur charge. He redirected into the depleted Waywatchers so I fled there as well. Otherwise lost 4 Wild Riders to poison shots on one flank and half a Glade Guard unit to Ancient Steg shooting. The Warhawk Riders took out the last wound on the Skink Priest, but then died - not a bad way to go, as they held up his big unit for a turn. On my turn 2 I charged a unit of 10 Glade Guard into the flank of the Stegadon. This was a gamble: I had to rally my wizard's unit (out of BSB bubble) and roll at least 5 dice for winds of magic and successfully cast Mindrazor to not just lose that unit. However, any alternative would have seen me lose at least one unit of Glade Guard to the Steg charging next turn. Wild Riders turned around and looped in towards his big Saurus unit with the Slann in it. I shot off about half of his Skink Skirmishers with my remaining Glade Guard.

Turn 3 he had no charge options, but brought his Bastiladon and Carnosaur in range of my Glade Guard for a charge next turn. He brought his remaining Chameleon skinks out of their hiding place (building) so that they could shoot at my Wild Riders, and his Skink Skirmishers rounded on my Wild Riders to shoot at them (and prevent a flank charge into the Saurus). Thankfully, I didn't lose any more of the Wild Riders on that flank to shooting, but I lost 4 on the other flank to Fiery Convocation. He reformed his Saurus, to avoid getting rear charged by the Wild Riders, but mispositioned them, thinking he was protected on one flank by Skirmishers and that he was in the front on the other side (he wasn't).

And now the finale! In my turn 3 I charged his Skink skirmishers with the remaining 2 Wild Riders. This caused them to shrink up enough to allow my unit of 6 Wild Riders to declare a flank charge on his Saurus, which was coincidentally standing with that flank beside a forest. The two remaining Wild Riders (who were still on fire from the Fiery Convocation) charged the other flank of the Saurus. My Glade Guard (the ones who had just Mindrazored the Stegadon to death) flank charged his Bastiladon, hoping to repeat the process and overrun into the rear of the Saurus unit. All the other Glade Guard and the remaining Waywatchers shot at the Carnosaur and plinked two wounds off it. Magic got only 5 dice and a poor roll allowed him to dispel the Mindrazor. However, it ended up not mattering. The Glade Guard survived against the Bastiladon - doing two wounds and taking two wounds. The Wild Riders eliminated the wee skink unit. But the big combat in the middle ... of a total of 24 attacks from the Riders alone (not the mounts), 23 hit and 21 wounded (hurray for rerolling 1s!). With the -3 to armor save that was 21 dead. The mounts cleared off the rest, leaving only the command group alive, along with the Slann and the Scar Vet, but the combat was lost by a ton and they were no longer Steadfast because they didn't have a complete rank any more. They fled, I pursued and wiped them out and that was when we called it.

Lessons learned:

• Wild Riders continue to hit hard consistently, and are vulnerable to shooting. 6 definitely still feels like the right number in the unit, shields are a must have, and command so far still proves unnecessary. Having 3 units is awesome. Even one or two WR models will take out most chaff.
• Sisters of the Thorn are, of course, an amazing bunker. A question came up about what happens when the Wizard miscasts and rolls a Magical Feedback result - do the Sisters *all* take a S6 hit? We played it that they took D3 wounds just like they'd miscast themselves. Having a 3++ against magic makes people just avoid casting at them, and they can flee and reform and then move again all day long. I love it.
• I think that 40 Glade Guard is not the optimum core build. I'm going to try some other options. Likely will keep at least 20, but Eternal Guard and Glade Riders will make an appearance soon.
• Warhawk Riders did their job of killing a character (a minor one, but he had the Dispel Scroll). Will continue to use them before drawing conclusions about use or not
• The importance of drawing enemy units toward forests can't really be understated. I don't think we need to keep our units in the forest per se, but I definitely see me putting either an anvil or a bait unit beside a forest to allow for a flank charge.

Yeah, it was a long read. Thanks if you read it all :-)
~gwh

[Boskie43]

[*]Sisters of the Thorn are, of course, an amazing bunker. A question came up about what happens when the Wizard miscasts and rolls a Magical Feedback result - do the Sisters *all* take a S6 hit? We played it that they took D3 wounds just like they'd miscast themselves. Having a 3++ against magic makes people just avoid casting at them, and they can flee and reform and then move again all day long. I love it.

~gwh

Actually had this question with the sisters come up at a Buckeye Battles primer just this weekend:

As to the sisters - it specifies in the book that:

"Each time the unit casts a spell (or is targeted by a special rule that affects a Wizard), you must nominate one Sister of Handmaiden of the Thorn as the caster (or target) for the purposes of line of sight, range, etc."

Ruling for the tournament for the magical feedback miscast was that because you only generate one channel dice for the unit (functioning as a lvl 2 Wizard) then only 1 model (the one that generated your dice for you? ) is the one that takes the hit. Made sense considering the rule for miscasts is "kinda like" a special rule, and with their functioning for both channeling, and actually casting their spells, for all intents and purposes rely on 1 model in their unit fucntioning like a Wizard, aka someone who channels dice to take a hit according to that miscast role.

Made sense to all of us when the ruling was decided after some conference talk (which included the current US Grand Master... who also happend to win the tournament relatively easily with Brets instead of his normal High Elves).
Seemed reasonable to be played like that.

Otherwise, good reads! Appreciate the info. Especially the Treekin info - I'm tempted to run a 3-6 man unit in support/on the flanks of an EG unit while the rest of the army does whatever they want.

[Fitz]

Great write ups thanks mate.

Questions:

1. Do you feel like you need the full command on the Sisters? I am just rocking a Standard at the moment.
2. If you drop some archers do you think you'll have enough shooting punch? Why are you considering dropping them? I have only 20 GG with some EG in core, but then I have 14-16 scouts onboard too.

[godswearhats]

"Each time the unit casts a spell (or is targeted by a special rule that affects a Wizard), you must nominate one Sister of Handmaiden of the Thorn as the caster (or target) for the purposes of line of sight, range, etc."

Ah excellent! Thanks for that :-)

[godswearhats]

1. Do you feel like you need the full command on the Sisters? I am just rocking a Standard at the moment.

I tend to run the unit 3 wide and 3 deep, which means the wizard is protected right in the center. I move to her to the front or side only when I need to cast Penumbral Pendulum and she's safe to do so, or when I want to cast with the Sisters (I nominate someone not in base contact with her). It's pretty hard to catch the Sisters but not impossible. I like to get in close and then flee if charged, so I need to have the musician for the +1 Ld on the rally. The banner is very helpful for the extra MR. The champion could likely be dropped if I needed to save points, but I really want to be able to protect the wizard as much as possible so I'd rather try to find points elsewhere.

2. If you drop some archers do you think you'll have enough shooting punch? Why are you considering dropping them? I have only 20 GG with some EG in core, but then I have 14-16 scouts onboard too.

I have 18 Waywatchers, 8 Sisters, 3 Warhawks and 40 Glade Guard. In general, the GG are great at clearing chaff but that's about it. I also think I could clear chaff just as effectively with 30 or maybe even 20 (or maybe 2 units of 12). I doubt I'd eliminate them entirely.

With this list, I'm likely taking second turn, which means I'm very likely charging in Turn 1 with 3-6 units, eliminating most smaller units early in the game, which then leaves the Glade Guard with a limited role against heavily armored enemies. Still, in other battles they will whittle away at enemy blocks quite effectively.

[Fitz]

Ah I see it now - hadn't noticed that your BSB was chilling with the Glade Guard. That would scare the crap out of me! What's his survival rate like? I guess you have some protection on board.

EDIT - Forgot to add: Your lack of scroll disturbs me!

[godswearhats]

BSB typically lives the whole battle. The Glade Guard are a perceived as less of a threat than the Wild Riders, Waywatchers and Sisters bunker, and typically people only send one to two units after them. A combination of fleeing / double flee usually keeps them safe. Having Ld 9 (or 10 in his own unit) re-rollable for rally tests makes them rarely run off the board - I tend to either move them up to face head on charges, or move reform to be length-ways on the table. But just in case, he has the charmed shield and the opal amulet, so likely avoiding two turns of damage.

Yeah, I've played a few games now without the scroll. Having +5 to dispel rather than +4 does help a little, but really I've just learned to be smarter about what I choose to dispel. Having a the Sisters available as another Wizard (and usually at +3 in a Forest) is a great backup in case I want to try to 1-dice dispel something (which I've done, particularly on bound items).

However, I think the Book of Ashur build works better on Dark Magic than on Shadow, so I may switch to Dispel Scroll and Talisman of Preservation, freeing up 25 points for something else.

[Fitz]

25 points = flag and a flaming banner on one of your WR units.

[loki0486]

Just keep in mind that if you vanguard those WR then you don't get to charge first turn.

[Beithir Seun]

Just keep in mind that if you vanguard those WR then you don't get to charge first turn.

Not quite; they won't get to charge after vanguarding if you go first - that's not the same thing as "first turn".

[loki0486]

Just keep in mind that if you vanguard those WR then you don't get to charge first turn.

Not quite; they won't get to charge after vanguarding if you go first - that's not the same thing as "first turn".

Very true, I was just going with the general feeling that with our reduced drops (due to scout/ambush) we have a damn good chance at going first and usually we want it to clear out a couple War machines before they get dirty with our low number units.

To be clear, If you vanguard and then you go first, you cannot charge with your vanguarded troops.

[godswearhats]

Yep, I know. I usually have more drops than my opponents though.

4x Glade Guard, 3x WR, WHR, Sisters, 2x GE, characters = 12 drops. Most armies are 10 or less. I assume I'm getting second turn. If I get first, I take advantage of the Vanguard to instead move out of their charge arcs and into flanks as much as possible.

[godswearhats]

Playing at Wet Coast GT this weekend. 2-1 in my first three games. My only loss was to wood elves.

2 more games today.

Not very happy with the list. It actually has too much shooting and gets kinda dull.

[Shandrakor]

Playing at Wet Coast GT this weekend. 2-1 in my first three games. My only loss was to wood elves.

2 more games today.

Not very happy with the list. It actually has too much shooting and gets kinda dull.

You know, I've been getting the same feeling recently. Kinda want to try out a more combat oriented list with shooting as a support element, rather than the focus of the army. Unfortunately, this new book reduced the effectiveness of just about every combat unit in our book bar Warhawk and Wild Riders so I'm not too thrilled for it. Will have to mull that over a bit more.

[godswearhats]

Agreed.

Lost my last two games. Need to fix something for sure. Poor magic phases can really screw the list.

Very vulnerable to magic missiles.

I don't want to buy more models, so I'll experiment with what I've got.

[Renufus]

Agreed.

Lost my last two games. Need to fix something for sure. Poor magic phases can really screw the list.

Very vulnerable to magic missiles.

I don't want to buy more models, so I'll experiment with what I've got.

I find Wood Elves in general to be super vulnerable to magic missiles. Instead of running MR2 on my Spellwever I am now running MR1 and a Scroll of Shielding, with a Spellsinger dispel scroll caddy. I will never stray from this setup again.

[pip]

Agreed.

Lost my last two games. Need to fix something for sure. Poor magic phases can really screw the list.

Very vulnerable to magic missiles.

I don't want to buy more models, so I'll experiment with what I've got.

I didn't know you lost both your Sunday games , then again I was desperately fighting a cold to be able to play my games. I wanted more of a chance to talk to you guys but I had to disappear to take medicine and sleep. Hopefully even though you didn't quite enjoy your list you did enjoy the tournament. I was about to put up some battle reports of my own when I realized I can barely remember anything other than I won 2 drew 2 and lost 1. Worst time ever to catch a cold.

[godswearhats]

Yeah, my first Sunday game was Meeting Engagement against the following Warriors list:

2x Daemon Prince (1+ save and 2+ save respectively).
2x Chimera
2x Gorbeast Chariot
60 Marauders with Festus and a BSB on a Daemonic Mount (1+ rerollable save)

There was nowhere for my troops to run. I got one turn of shooting. I rolled snake eyes for winds of magic and fell 1 short of casting Withering to try to kill one of his DPs - positioned my bunker just out of short range and just inside overrun range for his horde which promptly wiped me out.

My second Sunday game (vs High Elves) should have been a win but we ran out of time. I whittled down all of his units, but we only got to the bottom of turn 3 due to a lot of ponderous play. At one point we spent 10 minutes discussing whether or not you can declare charge, have the unit flee and then defer deciding on whether you want to redirect until after another charge has been declared (you can't, but he wanted to).

I think the biggest issue with the list was a lack of banners and static combat res. The former hurt some scenarios, the latter is a general weakness of the list. And still high tough armor saves are brutal. The amount of shooting the list does is frankly boring. And most of it is like pea-shooters - it felt incredibly frustrating to be bouncing off virtually everything. Waywatchers are great, but they still need 6s to wound a T5 model.

I'm going back to the drawing board entirely.

[CauCaSus]

I dare say WoC is the worst match up we have. Also, slow playing is poor sportsmanship and that HE guy sounds like a poor sport.

[godswearhats]

I don't think he did it deliberately. We were both caught a bit off-guard when time was called.

So, some ideas I have.

• 16 Dryads, in a 4x5 block, with two mounted Glade Captains with Great Weapons sitting on the two corners. Should give a reasonable amount of staying power, with damage output coming from the 6 S6 GW attacks. < 400 points including characters.
• L4 on Beasts, on foot in Glade Guard. I still like this lore a lot. Wyssans will help all the Forest Spirits. Pann's will help protect fighty characters
• 2 units of around 15 Glade Guard, 1 TFA, 1 HBT
• Eagle Lord, Armor of Destiny, Dragonbane Gem, Ogre Blade, Potion of Foolhardiness. Kills Chimerae and K'daii. Can even take on armor.
• 6 Treekin
• 2x Treeman - still great at wrecking infantry, and still hard to kill. Can also take out other Monsters reasonably well.