Two more 2500pt battles this weekend, both with interesting lessons. Check out the two "Lessons Learned" sections if this is too long to read :-)
Battle 1 - vs EmpireThe first was with a list of models that I had been using with the previous book that were fully painted, minus one Eagle (I played with what I had brought with me, with no proxies)
Treeman Ancient, L4
Glade Captain, HoDA, Opal Amulet, Charmed Shield, Great Weapon, BSB
Spellsinger, L2, Lore of Metal, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Champion, Hagbane Tips
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Hagbane Tips
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Trueflight
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Starfire Shafts
16 Dryads, Champion
6 Tree Kin, Champion
5 Wardancers
5 Wild Riders, Standard Bearer
2x Treeman
Great Eagle
His list was Empire, and while I won't have the details exactly right:
Wizard, L4, Life, Dispel Scroll (and probably a ward save, but it never came up)
General (w/Runefang and OTS), BSB and Warrior Priest, mounted in a unit of 12 Inner Circle knights
Hero on a Pegasus
2x 5 Empire Knights
4 Demigryphs
3 Demigryphs
2 Steam Tanks
1 unit of archers (wizard bunker)
We only had time to play 4 turns. Rather than a full battle report, I'll give a very quick overview and some insights that I got.
He deployed in a way that jammed up his big bus of knights so they never saw combat nor did anything valuable the whole game. I avoided most of one flank, which kept one of his units of demigryphs out of the game (they would have been able to charge turn 5). The Wild Riders were able to wound one steam tank before getting ground out, which allowed a Treeman to go in and Tree Whack it to death in one turn. Glade Guard were pretty much ineffective the whole game, as you might expect against 1+ AS. Dryads were completely ineffective, being held up by Empire Knights the whole game. Treekin wiped out 5 Empire Knights and failed a 5 inch overrun into the Demigryphs, which meant they got countercharged - however, they held up four two rounds of combat, allowing my Treemen to charge in and support them. Magic did very little all game (I rolled 4, 2, 4, 6 for winds), although he got a big phase that allowed him to heal up his other Steam Tank and prevent me from scoring those points (still would have been a tie tho - we were playing +/- 300 points is a tie).
OK, that's the summary. Lessons learned.
- Dryads, even with Hatred, are pretty meh all around. They need magic support, and once you're at that point, there are better things that can do all the same jobs. I'll experiment with them a bit more, but they are firmly on the bench in any all-comers list that I write.
- Treemen (without Strangleroots) are an OK choice. S5 can still hurt a lot of things, and for anything with a 1+ AS you have Tree Whack. T6/W5 keeps them alive against a lot of things
- Treeman Ancient is so-so. Very survivable against everything but cannon, but Lore of Life is not as beneficial a lore as it used to be for the army - without the S6 Treemen to do the heavy lifting, you've got little to no punch. I will not take Lore of Life as a L4 lore in an all-comers list again, which likely benches the Treeman Ancient for the foreseeable future.
- I feel like Hagbane is wasteful of points against some armies (i.e. you don't get real value from it), whereas Trueflight is always useful. I will try Hagbane out some more, but for the moment it is benched in my all-comers list.
- Treekin are pretty solid as an anvil. Being able to take a charge from a 4-strong unit of Demigryphs and survive, not break and be able to fight back for a further two turns (before dying to the man) is no mean feat. I think they will come into their own against infantry, light cavalry or monstrous infantry - anything with a 3+ AS or worse.
Battle 2 - vs LizardmenSpellweaver, L4 Shadow, Steed, Book of Ashur, Talisman of Endurance, General
Glade Captain, BSB, HoDA, Charmed Shield, Opal Amulet, Great Weapon
3x 10 Glade Guard, Musician, Trueflight
10 Glade Guard, Musician, Starfire Shafts
3x 6 Wild Riders, Shields
8 Sisters of the Thorn, Full Command, Lichebone Pennant
3 Warhawk Riders
2x 9 Waywatchers
2x Great Eagle
His list, from memory:
Slann, L4, Loremaster (High Magic), 2 Extra Channel Dice, Channeling Staff, General, BSB
Scar Veteran, GW, Egg of Quango, not sure what else
Scar Veteran, Carnosaur, Armor of Destiny
Skink Priest, L1, Beasts, Dispel Scroll
10 Skink Skirmishers, Blowpipes
11 Skinks, Kroxigor
10 Skinks, Kroxigor
~30 Saurus, Spears, Shields, Full command
2x 5 Chameleon Skinks
Bastiladon, Solar Engine
2x Ancient Stegadon
So, a bit of a Monster Mash type list. He deployed his big units and monsters fairly centrally, with the Skrox units on either flank and a Chameleon skink unit in support of each of those. I deployed one unit of Wild Riders on the left flank, all Glade Guard between them and the center, Sisters on the right center (behind my free forest) and the rest on the right flank. Waywatchers on left and right just in front of my deployment zone in forests.
Turn 1 he pushed forward, killed most of one unit of Waywatchers with Soulquench and otherwise did very little. My turn 1 I charged his Skrox units on either flank with a unit of Wild Riders each, and charged a Stegadon with the 3rd unit of Wild Riders. Mindrazor allowed me to kill the Stegadon and overrun out of charge range from his Carnosaur. I had to charge my Warhawk Riders into this Saurus unit in order to make a charge with my Wild Riders into his Steg - they chipped a wound off his Skink priest but I was unable to KB his Scar Vet. Wiped out both Skrox units and overran down the flanks close to the back of the board. Trueflight arrows killed one unit of Chameleons, and an Eagle took out two more before dying.
Turn 2 I fled with my wizard bunker away from a Carnosaur charge. He redirected into the depleted Waywatchers so I fled there as well. Otherwise lost 4 Wild Riders to poison shots on one flank and half a Glade Guard unit to Ancient Steg shooting. The Warhawk Riders took out the last wound on the Skink Priest, but then died - not a bad way to go, as they held up his big unit for a turn. On my turn 2 I charged a unit of 10 Glade Guard into the flank of the Stegadon. This was a gamble: I had to rally my wizard's unit (out of BSB bubble) and roll at least 5 dice for winds of magic and successfully cast Mindrazor to not just lose that unit. However, any alternative would have seen me lose at least one unit of Glade Guard to the Steg charging next turn. Wild Riders turned around and looped in towards his big Saurus unit with the Slann in it. I shot off about half of his Skink Skirmishers with my remaining Glade Guard.
Turn 3 he had no charge options, but brought his Bastiladon and Carnosaur in range of my Glade Guard for a charge next turn. He brought his remaining Chameleon skinks out of their hiding place (building) so that they could shoot at my Wild Riders, and his Skink Skirmishers rounded on my Wild Riders to shoot at them (and prevent a flank charge into the Saurus). Thankfully, I didn't lose any more of the Wild Riders on that flank to shooting, but I lost 4 on the other flank to Fiery Convocation. He reformed his Saurus, to avoid getting rear charged by the Wild Riders, but mispositioned them, thinking he was protected on one flank by Skirmishers and that he was in the front on the other side (he wasn't).
And now the finale! In my turn 3 I charged his Skink skirmishers with the remaining 2 Wild Riders. This caused them to shrink up enough to allow my unit of 6 Wild Riders to declare a flank charge on his Saurus, which was coincidentally standing with that flank beside a forest. The two remaining Wild Riders (who were still on fire from the Fiery Convocation) charged the other flank of the Saurus. My Glade Guard (the ones who had just Mindrazored the Stegadon to death) flank charged his Bastiladon, hoping to repeat the process and overrun into the rear of the Saurus unit. All the other Glade Guard and the remaining Waywatchers shot at the Carnosaur and plinked two wounds off it. Magic got only 5 dice and a poor roll allowed him to dispel the Mindrazor. However, it ended up not mattering. The Glade Guard survived against the Bastiladon - doing two wounds and taking two wounds. The Wild Riders eliminated the wee skink unit. But the big combat in the middle ... of a total of 24 attacks from the Riders alone (not the mounts), 23 hit and 21 wounded (hurray for rerolling 1s!). With the -3 to armor save that was 21 dead. The mounts cleared off the rest, leaving only the command group alive, along with the Slann and the Scar Vet, but the combat was lost by a ton and they were no longer Steadfast because they didn't have a complete rank any more. They fled, I pursued and wiped them out and that was when we called it.
Lessons learned:
- Wild Riders continue to hit hard consistently, and are vulnerable to shooting. 6 definitely still feels like the right number in the unit, shields are a must have, and command so far still proves unnecessary. Having 3 units is awesome. Even one or two WR models will take out most chaff.
- Sisters of the Thorn are, of course, an amazing bunker. A question came up about what happens when the Wizard miscasts and rolls a Magical Feedback result - do the Sisters *all* take a S6 hit? We played it that they took D3 wounds just like they'd miscast themselves. Having a 3++ against magic makes people just avoid casting at them, and they can flee and reform and then move again all day long. I love it.
- I think that 40 Glade Guard is not the optimum core build. I'm going to try some other options. Likely will keep at least 20, but Eternal Guard and Glade Riders will make an appearance soon.
- Warhawk Riders did their job of killing a character (a minor one, but he had the Dispel Scroll). Will continue to use them before drawing conclusions about use or not
- The importance of drawing enemy units toward forests can't really be understated. I don't think we need to keep our units in the forest per se, but I definitely see me putting either an anvil or a bait unit beside a forest to allow for a flank charge.
Yeah, it was a long read. Thanks if you read it all :-)
~gwh