The Arrow Thread

[Rogue Sun]

I'm not sure High Magic benefits the no modifier arrows, I mean, it does, but it has diminishing returns. Hand of Glory only needs to boost their BS to 5 in order to get maximum shots hit, but as it can potentially increase them to BS7 you're wasting 2 pips of BS that would be better served on your multishot arrows.

[gingersmali]

I'm not sure High Magic benefits the no modifier arrows, I mean, it does, but it has diminishing returns. Hand of Glory only needs to boost their BS to 5 in order to get maximum shots hit, but as it can potentially increase them to BS7 you're wasting 2 pips of BS that would be better served on your multishot arrows.

Yup, this guy know whats up, I was about to say just this. High has Synge with mutlishot. Shadow is either multi or no modifiers. Metal any are fine.

[Pigey]

I'm not sure High Magic benefits the no modifier arrows, I mean, it does, but it has diminishing returns. Hand of Glory only needs to boost their BS to 5 in order to get maximum shots hit, but as it can potentially increase them to BS7 you're wasting 2 pips of BS that would be better served on your multishot arrows.

Yup, this guy know whats up, I was about to say just this. High has Synge with mutlishot. Shadow is either multi or no modifiers. Metal any are fine.

Would MSU GG be worth it with Shadow and no modifiers?

[Rogue Sun]

If you're planning a fairly mobile force with a very fluid playstyle I would say so. I may use death in my sethyala list simply for tearing down hard to kill characters and for that sweet soulblight bubble. I'm not a huge fan of the high cost of Shadow but it's hard to ignore it's effectiveness.

[gingersmali]

I'm not sure High Magic benefits the no modifier arrows, I mean, it does, but it has diminishing returns. Hand of Glory only needs to boost their BS to 5 in order to get maximum shots hit, but as it can potentially increase them to BS7 you're wasting 2 pips of BS that would be better served on your multishot arrows.

Yup, this guy know whats up, I was about to say just this. High has Synge with mutlishot. Shadow is either multi or no modifiers. Metal any are fine.

Would MSU GG be worth it with Shadow and no modifiers?

shadow on MSU glade guard hmm, one reason i like it on a 30 man brick is mind razor is so strong with ASF, less good with smaller units. Withering still works fine tho. i dunno about the No modifier arrow unless you are planing or moving or shooting thought a forest, and i don't see what is really to be gained by moving that much as there no benefit to short range. Personally if you want to go lots of small units i think poison is a good choice, but it doesn't work well with shadow. I think it a question of find a list that works well together an can deal with armour, high T and lots of low T.

[Pigey]

I think you will have to think about what magic law your playing on taking, poison is probable the best un-buffed, but it doesn't work well with buffs, which the other two do.
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hand and glory and withering where the two spells i was thinking of, but enchanted blades, flaming sword also would work.

You're right. I can see the different types of arrows benefiting of different Lores:
Heaven for poisoned
High or Metal for no-modifiers
Shadow for multi-shot.

I can't see a L4 on Fire, so less chances to have that one spell. Anyway the Flaming Sword could improve any of them almost at the same extent.

Why would you use Heaven with poison arrows? Sorry if it is obvious :S (I have not been playing in a looooooonnnng time)

[gingersmali]

I think you will have to think about what magic law your playing on taking, poison is probable the best un-buffed, but it doesn't work well with buffs, which the other two do.
'
hand and glory and withering where the two spells i was thinking of, but enchanted blades, flaming sword also would work.

You're right. I can see the different types of arrows benefiting of different Lores:
Heaven for poisoned
High or Metal for no-modifiers
Shadow for multi-shot.

I can't see a L4 on Fire, so less chances to have that one spell. Anyway the Flaming Sword could improve any of them almost at the same extent.

Why would you use Heaven with poison arrows? Sorry if it is obvious :S (I have not been playing in a looooooonnnng time)

There no direct reason, just without buffs, poison is normally best, and cheapest, and heavens doesn't provide any buff to shooting. (I take that back, harmonic thing, let you reroll 1s so more likely you'll get your poison but this isn't a big deal) with heaven you will most likely be going for comet/thunderbolt and blizzard as a combat buff.

[Adahy]

There no direct reason, just without buffs, poison is normally best, and cheapest, and heavens doesn't provide any buff to shooting. (I take that back, harmonic thing, let you reroll 1s so more likely you'll get your poison but this isn't a big deal) with heaven you will most likely be going for comet/thunderbolt and blizzard as a combat buff.

It increases your poison wounds by 17%...pretty significant imo.

[Luminith]

There no direct reason, just without buffs, poison is normally best, and cheapest, and heavens doesn't provide any buff to shooting. (I take that back, harmonic thing, let you reroll 1s so more likely you'll get your poison but this isn't a big deal) with heaven you will most likely be going for comet/thunderbolt and blizzard as a combat buff.

It increases your poison wounds by 17%...pretty significant imo.

I'm not a mathamagician, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think its a 17% increase. With harmonic convergence you have a 17% chance to get another 17% chance to auto wound.

Harmonic Convergence really shines with no penalty arrow glade guard and waywatchers imo. sticking your units close to get in that 12" bubble, and they'll almost never miss! I'd also consider a couple lv 2 shadowsingers to try and get that withering off.. or possibly minus 2d3 movement

[gingersmali]

There no direct reason, just without buffs, poison is normally best, and cheapest, and heavens doesn't provide any buff to shooting. (I take that back, harmonic thing, let you reroll 1s so more likely you'll get your poison but this isn't a big deal) with heaven you will most likely be going for comet/thunderbolt and blizzard as a combat buff.

It increases your poison wounds by 17%...pretty significant imo.

I'm not a mathamagician, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think its a 17% increase. With harmonic convergence you have a 17% chance to get another 17% chance to auto wound.

Harmonic Convergence really shines with no penalty arrow glade guard and waywatchers imo. sticking your units close to get in that 12" bubble, and they'll almost never miss! I'd also consider a couple lv 2 shadowsingers to try and get that withering off.. or possibly minus 2d3 movement

there are in fact the same thing here, say you have 36 guys shooting. why 36 because it make the numbers nice. without the spell you get 6 insta wounds average. with the spell you get 7, 17% more. However, pretty significant? I would say no. And you'd have to cast the bubble version to affect this many models. This is why you'd have a better time casting one of the other law of heavens fine selection of spells.

[Luminith]

what about a unit of 30 glade guard, with the no penalty arrows, with flaming sword cast on them? That's gotta be a pretty sweet combo against hordes, or trolls...or hordes of trolls...

EDIT: just got corrected by my math major friend. So you initially have a 17% chance to get a 6. With harmonic convergence you have a 17% chance to get another 17% chance, which works out to about 3%. So your 17% chance to get a 6 goes up to 20%, which works out to 7 wounds from 36 glade guard, as was pointed out.

[gingersmali]

what about a unit of 30 glade guard, with the no penalty arrows, with flaming sword cast on them? That's gotta be a pretty sweet combo against hordes, or trolls...or hordes of trolls...

EDIT: just got corrected by my math major friend. So you initially have a 17% chance to get a 6. With harmonic convergence you have a 17% chance to get another 17% chance, which works out to about 3%. So your 17% chance to get a 6 goes up to 20%, which works out to 7 wounds from 36 glade guard, as was pointed out.

My problem with what you have suggested is how do you get flaming sword? a level 4 on fire seems like a horrible choice as you have plenty of low strength attacks already.

The anti forced of destruction arrows are basically paying for flaming sword all the time, but only against half the armies, but not sure forces of order get many reg units.

woo maths

[Luminith]

what about a unit of 30 glade guard, with the no penalty arrows, with flaming sword cast on them? That's gotta be a pretty sweet combo against hordes, or trolls...or hordes of trolls...

EDIT: just got corrected by my math major friend. So you initially have a 17% chance to get a 6. With harmonic convergence you have a 17% chance to get another 17% chance, which works out to about 3%. So your 17% chance to get a 6 goes up to 20%, which works out to 7 wounds from 36 glade guard, as was pointed out.

My problem with what you have suggested is how do you get flaming sword? a level 4 on fire seems like a horrible choice as you have plenty of low strength attacks already.

The anti forced of destruction arrows are basically paying for flaming sword all the time, but only against half the armies, but not sure forces of order get many reg units.

woo maths

I'll agree with that. I just like to throw out possible scenarios

I wouldn't just throw fire out of the loop though. I'd try a lv 2, backed up with a lv4 shadow or death. If you want flaming glade guard you can't take magic arrows, so this at least is an optional approach. It's the lowest casting lore in the book, taking fireball negates your need for the flaming banner. The other mm and direct dmg spells are pretty decent and also negate the need for the flaming banner. Flaming head or whatever it's called, combined with doom and darkness could be sweet. Flame cage and flaming sword are amazing spells. Really, everything except flame cloak is viable. It just..doesn't really fit our fluff haha

[brechttomme]

One quick question: can magical arrows be duplicated? I.e. can you take multiple units with the same magical arrows? It would make sense to me, but I've read otherwise somewhere. Or is it just because they were confused about them technically being "enchanted items"?

[hutobega]

It's an upgrade for a unit not an actual magic items so yes. you can bring butt loads of poison or whatever you want.

[Pigey]

I see Shadow working pretty well with AP -3 as well. Thoughts?

[SpanielBear]

I see Shadow working pretty well with AP -3 as well. Thoughts?

AP-3 makes a Glade Guard cost 2.5 slaves more, which makes him or her only 1.5 slaves cheaper than the Waywatchers. Unless you have a meta with a huge amount of T3 heavy armour, you are probably better off with cheaper arrows to synergise with Shadow. The other arrows all have regular AP as well as their extra effect, so you'll still force sword and board WoC to save on a 4+ even before you add accuracy, or poison, or whatever.

[Pigey]

I see Shadow working pretty well with AP -3 as well. Thoughts?

AP-3 makes a Glade Guard cost 2.5 slaves more, which makes him or her only 1.5 slaves cheaper than the Waywatchers. Unless you have a meta with a huge amount of T3 heavy armour, you are probably better off with cheaper arrows to synergise with Shadow. The other arrows all have regular AP as well as their extra effect, so you'll still force sword and board WoC to save on a 4+ even before you add accuracy, or poison, or whatever.

True that. It was just a random thought

[SpanielBear]

I see Shadow working pretty well with AP -3 as well. Thoughts?

AP-3 makes a Glade Guard cost 2.5 slaves more, which makes him or her only 1.5 slaves cheaper than the Waywatchers. Unless you have a meta with a huge amount of T3 heavy armour, you are probably better off with cheaper arrows to synergise with Shadow. The other arrows all have regular AP as well as their extra effect, so you'll still force sword and board WoC to save on a 4+ even before you add accuracy, or poison, or whatever.

True that. It was just a random thought

Hey, random thoughts are good! I'm still wondering about a squad of 'naked' Glade Guard with our old friend The Banner of Eternal Flame. Buffed to BS7 with hand of glory, and they could be very handy for cleansing the many, many watchtowers of the Warhammer World.

Seriously, what is it with these towers? They are supposed to be minor fortifications that allow quick identification of approaching forces and a base for signal fires; why do armies structure their entire plans of attack around who gets to sit in them!?

[Adahy]

So, looking at the book, it looks like we lose AP when we take magic arrows. Thoughts?

[Ioreth Starmantle]

On what do you base that?

I don't have my book yet ('cos, y'know, pre-ordering means I get the book a week later than if I'd just hit up my local shop on release day) but as I understand it, AP is a rule of Asrai Bows, not arrows and should still apply to our funky ammunition?

[gingersmali]

So, looking at the book, it looks like we lose AP when we take magic arrows. Thoughts?

All magic arrows also have AP, correct me if Im wrong, not with the book atm.

[JAMOB]

Other than the bodkins (which are -3 save anyway), all the arrows include the profile of the bow, so r30 s3 ap volley. Then they just add the special rules on.

[Adahy]

Serves me right for only looking at bodkins

[brechttomme]

In case anyone is interested, I posted a wall of text in a new topic with a table mathematically showing the effectiveness of each type of Arrow against all manner of opponents. Here's the link (shameless plug, I know ): http://asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26375