The Arrow Thread

[MarkM]

Aren't Wild Riders forest spirits still? Thus magical attacks.

Wild Riders have the 'Forest Stalker' special rule. They are NOT Forest Spirits

[Ioreth Starmantle]

Is the math going on in this thread taking into account that Asrai bows give 1AP by default? Provided AP stacks, those bodkin arrows would be -4AP total, which is pretty serious. 1AP would also slightly change the math for the rest of the arrows as well.

The math I quoted at the get-go is including the standard AP-1. S'far as I know, however, AP does not stack. Bodkin Arrows are therefore -3, even when fired from an Asrai Bow with AP-1.

[OfTheThorn]

I guess it depends very much on whether your list is for a certain meta. Mine, for example, seems to see a lot of big gribblies, so I am liking the idea of massed poison .

In all-comers, the no-modifiers arrows might allow your GG to perform where they'd otherwise be useless though. Especially if you're chucking down three forests and hoping to hold up a charge or two. Chances are that'd be shooting through a unit, through a forest and at over half range.

[Mollesvinet]

I am for poisoned arrows too, especially after facing alot of skinks with poisoned shooting. Besides, shooting poisened arrows out of a venom thicket is just very cool. It's like the glade guard know how to use the venom from the forest even for shooting while others do not.

I would add a small unit with +1 to wound vs evil to remove regeneration, once regeneration is gone the other archers will be fine against that target.

The amount of bodkin arrows would depend on how many wardancers and waywatchers i have in the army.

[NonnoSte]

Venom arrows could also be great with an ambushing Glade Riders unit or with Scouts.
They could deal pretty efficiently with warmachines

[CauCaSus]

Why is venom better on small units like GR and scouts? I've seen several people say this, but I'm not sure why. Because they don't have to worry about long range and intervening terrain as much?

[Ioreth Starmantle]

Because Poison makes each hit more likely to count.

Also because Scouts and Riders are often war-machine hunters and war machines have high toughness, but low armour.

[popisdead]

Aren't Wild Riders forest spirits still? Thus magical attacks.

Are they still? I thought that had changed. Well, use the Wild Riders to kill shooting units and focus missile fire on the White Lions then. T3 with no save versus Asrai missile fire, it shouldn't be that hard to do 30 to 40 Wounds over a few game turns...

No, Wild Riders do not have the Forest Spirit rule listed under their entry.

[Phil Rossiter]

Which presumably is one reason they got Frenzy (ITP). Do Tattoos still give MR1 or just the 6++?

Presumably you'd have to rely on Waywatchers to shoot White Lions because they will have World Dragon and non-magical shooting will struggle with the Lion Cloaks. Assuming you have archers without arrow upgrades.

[MarkM]

Tatoo's is 6++ only, so they lose the MR(1)

[Rogue Sun]

Which presumably is one reason they got Frenzy (ITP). Do Tattoos still give MR1 or just the 6++?

Presumably you'd have to rely on Waywatchers to shoot White Lions because they will have World Dragon and non-magical shooting will struggle with the Lion Cloaks. Assuming you have archers without arrow upgrades.

Yeah, Waywatchers to soften them up but since Wild Riders aren't magical that makes them pretty great at charging into a softened unit. They'd still get their rerolls and are killing on 2s. They'd do a whole bunch of damage.

Also keep in mind that Arcane Unforging can simply destroy the banner. I see some great potential with High Magic.

[Ioreth Starmantle]

Also keep in mind that Arcane Unforging can simply destroy the banner. I see some great potential with High Magic.

Mmm, excellent point. I had not considered that at all!

Almost too delicious, too.

[gingersmali]

I don't see why everyone one is so worried about BotWD, its one units in army which is all s3? just shoot everything else off.

Also if they run it on WL or SM half the unit will likely be dead if charged by WR, before they get to attack back.

Also ..

LIFE+ dwellers
SHADOW+mind-razor
METAL+final trans
HIGH+unforging

[TheKingInYellow]

I would love to see:

Poison vs Multishot vs No Modifiers at Short/No Move, Long/No Move and Long/Move.

I won't have time until after finals unfortunately.

I did the original math on Warseer, so let me take a crack at this... Give me an hour or so and I can do this during my boring conference call!

[Rogue Sun]

White Lions are actually a pretty big problem for Wood Elves. First off, they're S4 with great weapons. They're stubborn, have forest strider and most importantly a 3+ AS against non-magical shooting. With the BotWD they have a 2+ ward against magic and magical attacks. Going into combat against them is a risky ordeal and trying to shoot down a huge block of them is difficult. But if you destroy the banner the unit is significantly easier to shoot off the table.

[gingersmali]

White Lions are actually a pretty big problem for Wood Elves. First off, they're S4 with great weapons. They're stubborn, have forest strider and most importantly a 3+ AS against non-magical shooting. With the BotWD they have a 2+ ward against magic and magical attacks. Going into combat against them is a risky ordeal and trying to shoot down a huge block of them is difficult. But if you destroy the banner the unit is significantly easier to shoot off the table.

I think 2 units of way watcher will be very popular say you have 18, that 12 dead at long range and 15 at short range, each turn, problem solved haha :P.

Also 5 wild riders will do an average of 11 wounds on the charge if my maths is right. (before dieing horrible)

[gingersmali]

double post, sorry!

[Ioreth Starmantle]

White Lions are actually a pretty big problem for Wood Elves.

It seems to me that Word of Pain from the Lore of Dark Magic will turn them into pussycats.

It's unlikely that anyone will have Word of Pain and Arcane Unforging in one army, but it's nice to think that both Lores have a way to deal with the Banner deathstar.

[TheKingInYellow]

Here we go: Poison vs Multishot vs No Modifiers at Short/No Move, Long/No Move and Long/Move versus various targets for 30 Glade Guard in a wood

Versus Generic Humans/Elves - T3, 5+ AS
SHORT RANGE - NOT MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 5 poison, 7.5 wounds, 10.375 unsaved wounds
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 30hits, 15 wounds, 12.495 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds

LONG RANGE OR MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 15 hits, 5 poison, 5 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION

LONG RANGE AND MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 poison, 2.5 wounds, 6.225 unsaved wounds
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 wounds, 4.16 unsaved wounds
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION

Versus Chaos Warriors - T4, 3+ AS
SHORT RANGE - NOT MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 5 poison, 5 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 30hits, 10 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds

LONG RANGE OR MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 15 hits, 5 poison, 3.33 wounds, 4.16 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds

LONG RANGE AND MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 poison, 1.66 wounds, 2.83 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.66 unsaved wounds
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.83 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION

Versus Frost Phoenix - T6, 5+, 5++
SHORT RANGE - NOT MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 5 poison, 2.5 wounds, 6.24 wounds after armour, 4.16 wounds after ward save <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 30 hits, 5 wounds, 4.155 wounds after armour, 2.76 wounds after ward save
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save

LONG RANGE OR MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 15 hits, 5 poison, 1.66 wounds, 5.5 wounds after armour, 3.66 wounds after ward save <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save

LONG RANGE AND MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 poison, .833 wounds, 4.8 wounds after armour, 3.2 wounds after ward save <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 1.66 wounds, 1.37 wounds after armour saves, 0.91 wounds after ward save
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save

CONCLUSION
The accuracy arrows are rarely the best option. Poison clearly rules the roost for monster hunting (surprise) and is as good or better than accuracy arrows in most cases, but Multishot is really disappointing. It's just to hard to get over the additional -1 to hit that Multiple Shots imposes. Against lightly armoured T3 troops in short range, they are deadly, but that's about it.

[Rogue Sun]

White Lions are actually a pretty big problem for Wood Elves. First off, they're S4 with great weapons. They're stubborn, have forest strider and most importantly a 3+ AS against non-magical shooting. With the BotWD they have a 2+ ward against magic and magical attacks. Going into combat against them is a risky ordeal and trying to shoot down a huge block of them is difficult. But if you destroy the banner the unit is significantly easier to shoot off the table.

I think 2 units of way watcher will be very popular say you have 18, that 12 dead at long range and 15 at short range, each turn, problem solved haha :P.

Also 5 wild riders will do an average of 11 wounds on the charge if my maths is right. (before dieing horrible)

That assumes a lot though. Any opponent you face is going to recognize the huge threat WW pose and throw some magic missiles their way. This puts you in a tough spot because if you waste your dispel dice on the magic missile(s) then you leave yourself open to them getting a big buff or damage causing spell off.

Way Watchers are awesome now but we're not the only ones who realize this. If I'm playing my high elves you can bet my archers will be shooting them and my mages targeting them in an attempt to save my fast moving dragon princes or my white lions.

[Renufus]

Here we go: Poison vs Multishot vs No Modifiers at Short/No Move, Long/No Move and Long/Move versus various targets for 30 Glade Guard in a wood

Versus Generic Humans/Elves - T3, 5+ AS
SHORT RANGE - NOT MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 5 poison, 7.5 wounds, 10.375 unsaved wounds
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 30hits, 15 wounds, 12.495 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds

LONG RANGE OR MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 15 hits, 5 poison, 5 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION

LONG RANGE AND MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 poison, 2.5 wounds, 6.225 unsaved wounds
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 wounds, 4.16 unsaved wounds
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION

Versus Chaos Warriors - T4, 3+ AS
SHORT RANGE - NOT MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 5 poison, 5 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 30hits, 10 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds

LONG RANGE OR MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 15 hits, 5 poison, 3.33 wounds, 4.16 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds

LONG RANGE AND MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 poison, 1.66 wounds, 2.83 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.66 unsaved wounds
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.83 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION

Versus Frost Phoenix - T6, 5+, 5++
SHORT RANGE - NOT MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 5 poison, 2.5 wounds, 6.24 wounds after armour, 4.16 wounds after ward save <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 30 hits, 5 wounds, 4.155 wounds after armour, 2.76 wounds after ward save
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save

LONG RANGE OR MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 15 hits, 5 poison, 1.66 wounds, 5.5 wounds after armour, 3.66 wounds after ward save <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save

LONG RANGE AND MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 poison, .833 wounds, 4.8 wounds after armour, 3.2 wounds after ward save <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 1.66 wounds, 1.37 wounds after armour saves, 0.91 wounds after ward save
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save

CONCLUSION
The accuracy arrows are rarely the best option. Poison clearly rules the roost for monster hunting (surprise) and is as good or better than accuracy arrows in most cases, but Multishot is really disappointing. It's just to hard to get over the additional -1 to hit that Multiple Shots imposes. Against lightly armoured T3 troops in short range, they are deadly, but that's about it.

Thanks very much for posting this. Very informative and somewhat surprising.

I may still end up running the accuracy arrows because it allows you to shoot through intervening units for no penalty, which I can see being a fairly common occurrence for a largely static 'free wood' bunker. But it's good to have this kind of information on hand.

[Pigey]

Here we go: Poison vs Multishot vs No Modifiers at Short/No Move, Long/No Move and Long/Move versus various targets for 30 Glade Guard in a wood

Versus Generic Humans/Elves - T3, 5+ AS
SHORT RANGE - NOT MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 5 poison, 7.5 wounds, 10.375 unsaved wounds
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 30hits, 15 wounds, 12.495 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds

LONG RANGE OR MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 15 hits, 5 poison, 5 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION

LONG RANGE AND MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 poison, 2.5 wounds, 6.225 unsaved wounds
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 wounds, 4.16 unsaved wounds
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION

Versus Chaos Warriors - T4, 3+ AS
SHORT RANGE - NOT MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 5 poison, 5 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 30hits, 10 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds

LONG RANGE OR MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 15 hits, 5 poison, 3.33 wounds, 4.16 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds

LONG RANGE AND MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 poison, 1.66 wounds, 2.83 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.66 unsaved wounds
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.83 unsaved wounds <- BEST OPTION

Versus Frost Phoenix - T6, 5+, 5++
SHORT RANGE - NOT MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 5 poison, 2.5 wounds, 6.24 wounds after armour, 4.16 wounds after ward save <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 30 hits, 5 wounds, 4.155 wounds after armour, 2.76 wounds after ward save
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save

LONG RANGE OR MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 15 hits, 5 poison, 1.66 wounds, 5.5 wounds after armour, 3.66 wounds after ward save <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save

LONG RANGE AND MOVING
Poison Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 5 poison, .833 wounds, 4.8 wounds after armour, 3.2 wounds after ward save <- BEST OPTION
Multishot Arrows - S3 AP - 10 hits, 1.66 wounds, 1.37 wounds after armour saves, 0.91 wounds after ward save
Accurate Arrows - S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save

CONCLUSION
The accuracy arrows are rarely the best option. Poison clearly rules the roost for monster hunting (surprise) and is as good or better than accuracy arrows in most cases, but Multishot is really disappointing. It's just to hard to get over the additional -1 to hit that Multiple Shots imposes. Against lightly armoured T3 troops in short range, they are deadly, but that's about it.

Thanks a bunch! Really really informative. Poison is truly impressive and versatile.

[gingersmali]

I think you will have to think about what magic law your playing on taking, poison is probable the best un-buffed, but it doesn't work well with buffs, which the other two do.

hand and glory and withering where the two spells i was thinking of, but enchanted blades, flaming sword also would work.

[Tethlis]

That assumes a lot though. Any opponent you face is going to recognize the huge threat WW pose and throw some magic missiles their way. This puts you in a tough spot because if you waste your dispel dice on the magic missile(s) then you leave yourself open to them getting a big buff or damage causing spell off.

Way Watchers are awesome now but we're not the only ones who realize this. If I'm playing my high elves you can bet my archers will be shooting them and my mages targeting them in an attempt to save my fast moving dragon princes or my white lions.

The nice thing though is that you're going to know the full picture before Waywatchers get deployed. You'll know what spells your opponent has, you'll know where his warmachines/archers are and how many they'll have, and you'll know exactly how the terrain will look. So if there's too much heat on the table Turn 1, you deploy the Waywatchers someplace conservative (out of LoF, in a building, Obscured by another unit) and take a slower approach with them. 30 inch range obviously leaves a big comfortable cushion to put room between yourself and magic missiles.

It also helps that a lot of big augments/hexes don't really affect Wood Elves much, because Wood Elves naturally have smaller units and a high unit count. Slamming something with Dwellers or Final Transmutation isn't like to do much other than kill 4 or 5 models, and it's also pretty reasonable that steed-mounted Wood Elf characters could feasibly stay out of 24 inch Dwellers range.

So you're right that people will be slinging magic missiles at them, or gunning for them, but I don't know that it's any worse than any other fragile Elf unit that hates magic missiles. Waywatchers at least have the benefit of being useful from range, and are deployed last, so you can easily spot threats and try to avoid them.

[NonnoSte]

I think you will have to think about what magic law your playing on taking, poison is probable the best un-buffed, but it doesn't work well with buffs, which the other two do.
'
hand and glory and withering where the two spells i was thinking of, but enchanted blades, flaming sword also would work.

You're right. I can see the different types of arrows benefiting of different Lores:
Heaven for poisoned
High or Metal for no-modifiers
Shadow for multi-shot.

I can't see a L4 on Fire, so less chances to have that one spell. Anyway the Flaming Sword could improve any of them almost at the same extent.