The Arrow Thread

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Ioreth Starmantle
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The Arrow Thread

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

So, I think we all need to have the Arrow discussion. You know the one - which Arrows, if any, for which unit, for what army style, for your meta.

As I'm sure most of us know by now, we have a range of magic Arrows with which to upgrade most of our shooty units.

These are:

Witch's Curse Arrows: Poison (1.5 Slaves)
Moonfire Arrows: Flaming, +1 to wound Forces of Order (2 Slaves)
Starfire Arrows: Flaming, +1 to wound Forces of Destruction (2 Slaves)
Swift Arrows: Multiple Shots-2 (2 Slaves)
Accurate Arrows: Ignore to-hit modifiers (2 Slaves)
Bodkin Arrows: Armour Piercing-3 (2.5 slaves)

Arrows may be given to the following units, priced per-model: Glade Guard, Glade Riders, Deepwood Scouts, Glade Captains & Glade Lords.


That's a lot of options, not all of them good.

Over on Warseer TheKingInYellow did some preliminary mathhammer for a unit of 30 Glade Guard:
Say 3 x 10 BS4 Archers in a wood, so you are getting all 30 shots off, and assuming no other penalties:


Versus Generic Human - T3, 5+ AS
S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds.
S3 AP with +1 to wound - 20 hits, 13.333 wounds, ~11 unsaved wounds.
S3 AP with Poison - 20 hits - 5 poison, 7.5 wounds, 10.375 unsaved wounds.
S3 -3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 10 unsaved wounds.

Versus Warriors of Chaos - T4, 3+ AS
S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds.
S3 AP with +1 to wound - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds.
S3 AP with Poison - 20 hits - 5 poison, 5 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds.
S3 -3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 5.55 unsaved wounds.

Versus Frost Phoenix - T6, 5+ AS, 5++ WS
S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save.
S3 AP with +1 to wound - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 5.53 wounds after armour saves, 3.68 wounds after ward save.
S3 AP with Poison - 20 hits - 5 poison, 2.5 wounds, 6.24 wounds after armour saves, 4.16 wounds after ward save.
S3 -3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 3.33 wounds after armour saves, 2.22 wounds after ward save.

So basically, unless you are looking at generic T3, 5+ AS troops which shouldn't be a problem to deal with anyhow, Poison is at least as good if not better than +1 to wound, and you don't have to choose which side it will work against. It also works against the two neutral armies.

Considering that Poison is the same cost as the +1 to wound arrows, and cheaper than the -3 AP arrows Poison wins out. If you have to kill 1+ AS knights, use Waywatchers!

If you have a unit that will be moving at long range, consider the 'no modifier' arrows:

Versus Generic Human - T3, 5+ AS
S3 AP - 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8.33 unsaved wounds.
-2 to hit S3 AP with Poison - 5 hits - 5 poison, 5 wounds, 4.16 unsaved wounds.

Versus Warriors of Chaos - T4, 3+ AS
S3 AP - 20 hits, 6.66 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds.
-2 to hit S3 AP with Poison - 5 hits - 5 poison, 2.5 unsaved wounds.

Versus Frost Phoenix - T6, 5+ AS, 5++ WS
S3 AP - 20 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.76 wounds after armour saves, 1.84 wounds after ward save.
-2 to hit S3 AP with Poison - 5 hits - 5 poison, 4.16 wounds after armour saves, 2.74 wounds after ward save.

Poison still wins out against high toughness targets but lags behind on more common infantry targets. Maybe a mix of the two, a unit of Poison arrow users as an immobile base so they can hit on 4s and pluck the hard targets, and smaller mobile units with ignore modifier arrows to take out the light infantry.

For my part, I think there's something to be said for multishot Arrows on a large group of Glade Guard. Multihot loses out at range, but close-up it can have a withering effect on the bad guys.

I find myself liking the thought of Poison on such a large unit, too for it's versatility and cheapness.

Bodkins really seem viable only for small units of Scouts and Glade Riders.

Waywatchers are the go-to unit for shooting high-save targets, but I feel I'd still like 1-2 units with Bodkins to pip the last wound off of a crippled Mournfang or Silver Helm bus.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by SpanielBear »

As I also posted on the rumour thread, combining the no-penalty arrows with the banner of eternal flame will be very tasty if the watchtower turns up.... hitting on 3's, re-rolling wounds, armour piercing. Even Chaos warriors might grimace. :roll:
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by MortenLarsen »

Ioreth Starmantle wrote: Witch's Curse Arrows: Poison (1.5 Slaves)
Moonfire Arrows: Flaming, +1 to wound Forces of Order (2 Slaves)
Starfire Arrows: Flaming, +1 to wound Forces of Destruction (2 Slaves)
Swift Arrows: Multiple Shots-2 (2 Slaves)
Accurate Arrows: Ignore to-hit modifiers (2 Slaves)
Bodkin Arrows: Armour Piercing-3 (2.5 slaves)
Just to be REALLY clear here. Slaves = points, or did I miss something in one of the 1000 rumour threads :p
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by SpanielBear »

MortenLarsen wrote:
Ioreth Starmantle wrote: Witch's Curse Arrows: Poison (1.5 Slaves)
Moonfire Arrows: Flaming, +1 to wound Forces of Order (2 Slaves)
Starfire Arrows: Flaming, +1 to wound Forces of Destruction (2 Slaves)
Swift Arrows: Multiple Shots-2 (2 Slaves)
Accurate Arrows: Ignore to-hit modifiers (2 Slaves)
Bodkin Arrows: Armour Piercing-3 (2.5 slaves)
Just to be REALLY clear here. Slaves = points, or did I miss something in one of the 1000 rumour threads :p
It's the new wood elf fluff... how else did you suppose the Wood Elves' barter economy works if it doesn't take advantage of the near limitless supply of cold Brettonian peasants wandering into the forest for kindling? :roll:

Back on topic, I guess the question is do you go for one large group of archers, to take advantage of our guaranteed free wood but limiting their arrow options, or multiple small units able to take on a variety of roles?
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by MortenLarsen »

It's the new wood elf fluff... how else did you suppose the Wood Elves' barter economy works if it doesn't take advantage of the near limitless supply of cold Brettonian peasants wandering into the forest for kindling? :roll:
Uh, I love being pointed out as a dimwit ;-) But why is the term used? Any reason why not just calling it points?
Back on topic, I guess the question is do you go for one large group of archers, to take advantage of our guaranteed free wood but limiting their arrow options, or multiple small units able to take on a variety of roles?
Well that really comes down to the enemy you are facing. I mostly play smaller units and mostly play vs Empire. So I guess I will be using the Bodkins - perhaps with Multi Shots if I can spare the points.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by Adahy »

I would love to see:

Poison vs Multishot vs No Modifiers at Short/No Move, Long/No Move and Long/Move.

I won't have time until after finals unfortunately.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by quiestdeus »

MortenLarsen wrote:
It's the new wood elf fluff... how else did you suppose the Wood Elves' barter economy works if it doesn't take advantage of the near limitless supply of cold Brettonian peasants wandering into the forest for kindling? :roll:
Uh, I love being pointed out as a dimwit ;-) But why is the term used? Any reason why not just calling it points?
It actually refers to Skaven slaves. As posting the explicit points values of a unit is a generally accepted no-no based on GW's past aggressive behavior, people list the costs of things in slaves - a sort of lowest common denominator if you will. A skaven slave is equal to the number of thumbs your typical human has, and from there you can figure out how much those arrows cost per model. :D
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by MortenLarsen »

It actually refers to Skaven slaves. As posting the explicit points values of a unit is a generally accepted no-no based on GW's past aggressive behavior, people list the costs of things in slaves - a sort of lowest common denominator if you will. A skaven slave is equal to the number of thumbs your typical human has, and from there you can figure out how much those arrows cost per model. :D
GWs gotten more agressive since I last attended this forum then :-P
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by quiestdeus »

Ya, it definitely impacts sites like Warseer and Natfka far more than our little neck of the woods. The slave metric was used as the information was copied from Warseer originally . :)
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by SpanielBear »

MortenLarsen wrote:
It's the new wood elf fluff... how else did you suppose the Wood Elves' barter economy works if it doesn't take advantage of the near limitless supply of cold Brettonian peasants wandering into the forest for kindling? :roll:
Uh, I love being pointed out as a dimwit ;-) But why is the term used? Any reason why not just calling it points?
It was not my intention to be insulting, honestly, I was just being flippant. Apologies! :)
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by MortenLarsen »

It was not my intention to be insulting, honestly, I was just being flippant. Apologies! :)
No worries and no offence taken. I read your post as a sarcastic remark :D
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by Gurthaur »

In general i would say leave the bodkins and swift arrows at home, since waywatchers can fill both roles better.

Poisoned arrows are nice, since they are pretty flexible and good vs. any and all high T stuff, but i think my choice would be Starfire arrows and Accurate arrwos.

The reason for the latter is simple. More hits is also good against any and everything, and since you probably would like too place some woods on the field it is a good idea
to not provide your enemy with lots of cover in doing so.

Secondly the starfire arrwos are a little bit of a gamble, but in general there are more destruction armies out there than order armies, and said destruction armies are more prone to having monsters and the likes strolling around, against which flaming and +1 to wound really tend to shine. And if you dont face destruction you still got flaming attacks.

I probably would play my GG in a medium sized unit with the starfire arrows and a big one with the accuracy arrows, or split the gigger unit in two. But in the end thats really depending on the rest of the army and the magic lor ei take.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by quiestdeus »

Aye, starfire arrows are going to really shine. As we used to always have a unit with the flaming banner, I will likely always have a unit of GG rocking starfire arrows. We took BotEF to get rid of regen... well, starfire arrows do that AND get +1 to wound against destruction. I could absolutely be forgetting something on order's side, but all units I want to ping regen off of count as forces of destruction (e.g., trolls, horrors, aboms, to a lesser extent now hydras), so it is absolutely perfect. Slightly more expensive, but definitely worth it in my opinion.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by Ioreth Starmantle »

SpanielBear wrote:As I also posted on the rumour thread, combining the no-penalty arrows with the banner of eternal flame will be very tasty if the watchtower turns up.... hitting on 3's, re-rolling wounds, armour piercing. Even Chaos warriors might grimace. :roll:
You remember that the Banner of Eternal Flame doesn't work on magic weapons, right? And I strongly suspect that's what these Arrows will count as. Not certain, but very likely.

Which is why I have not yet ruled out fire of the Star and Moon variety.


My normal Core is three units of twelve Glade Guard and one unit of eighteen. For the big unit, I like Poison - but am tempted by Multishot.

I'm very tempted to give both Starfire and Moonfire to two smaller units. The way I read it, Starfire and Moonfire are always Flaming, even when used against the 'wrong' armies. Always Flaming, sometimes +1 to-wound.

I'm tempted to run two units of five Glade Riders, too. Ambushing with Bodkin Arrows. That's admitedly a Great Eagle's worth of points spent on bodkins, but they are a psychological threat to the other player.

Conversely, a unit each of Riders with Star and Moonfire Arrows just to strip regen seems possible.



As for Slaves - it's not just the Warseer rumour thread that uses them, it's fairly common when discussing points and trying to abide by the letter, if not the spirit of the law.

A Glade Guard costs (EDIT) 6 Slaves, an Eagle costs 25. Get the idea?
Last edited by Ioreth Starmantle on 30 Apr 2014, 22:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by Gurthaur »

It should be noted, that for small units of scouts or Gladeriders on warmachine hunting duty or similiar tasks i would take the Poisoned arrows, since they scale better with few shots, tha th efire arrows whichs + to wound component only kicks in with the apropriate numbers of hits.

@ Ioreth Wouldnt that be quite an expensive Glade Guard?^^
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by NonnoSte »

I think that the fact that we can have as many flaming arrows as we want should be taken in account...starfire arrows can really work against trolls, chimerae and A-bombs
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by SpanielBear »

Ioreth Starmantle wrote:
SpanielBear wrote:As I also posted on the rumour thread, combining the no-penalty arrows with the banner of eternal flame will be very tasty if the watchtower turns up.... hitting on 3's, re-rolling wounds, armour piercing. Even Chaos warriors might grimace. :roll:
You remember that the Banner of Eternal Flame doesn't work on magic weapons, right? And I strongly suspect that's what these Arrows will count as. Not certain, but very likely.

Which is why I have not yet ruled out fire of the Star and Moon variety.


My normal Core is three units of twelve Glade Guard and one unit of eighteen. For the big unit, I like Poison - but am tempted by Multishot.

I'm very tempted to give both Starfire and Moonfire to two smaller units. The way I read it, Starfire and Moonfire are always Flaming, even when used against the 'wrong' armies. Always Flaming, sometimes +1 to-wound.

I'm tempted to run two units of five Glade Riders, too. Ambushing with Bodkin Arrows. That's admitedly a Great Eagle's worth of points spent on bodkins, but they are a psychological threat to the other player.

Conversely, a unit each of Riders with Star and Moonfire Arrows just to strip regen seems possible.



As for Slaves - it's not just the Warseer rumour thread that uses them, it's fairly common when discussing points and trying to abide by the letter, if not the spirit of the law.

A Glade Guard costs (EDIT) 6 Slaves, an Eagle costs 25. Get the idea?
Aye, I remember that. But does that only apply to weapons with the "magical" special rule, or to a broader definition of magic weapons?

Because I don't think the new arrows have "Magical" as one of their properties. Of course if they do, then I am sorely mistaken. But if they don't...
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by Rogue Sun »

Multiple sources have said the arrows do NOT count as magical.

For my money I think the no penalties arrows look mighty fine. Firing at long range, after moving while shooting through a wood you put in the way usually means -3. Not good. But if you ignore those penalties and your opponent doesn't... well I see us surviving shooting a little easier.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by NonnoSte »

Rogue Sun wrote:Multiple sources have said the arrows do NOT count as magical.
Sorry to disappoint, but in fact they DO count as magical.
And I'm saying this with the book in my hands: it's stated that they are enchanted items by all means and their wounds are considered magical (bye-bye stupid ghosts).
They are the same as our old arrows except that any shooter in our army as access to them now.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by Rogue Sun »

Well that's a shame. Still though, it has it's benefits.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by NonnoSte »

Sure it has: they can deal with ethereals.
But it's another thing bounced back by the Banner of the World Dragon...
I'm still looking for something to throw at a white lion deathstar reliably.
To be limited at multi-shot waywatchers is kind of... Limited.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by Tethlis »

quiestdeus wrote:Aye, starfire arrows are going to really shine. As we used to always have a unit with the flaming banner, I will likely always have a unit of GG rocking starfire arrows. We took BotEF to get rid of regen... well, starfire arrows do that AND get +1 to wound against destruction. I could absolutely be forgetting something on order's side, but all units I want to ping regen off of count as forces of destruction (e.g., trolls, horrors, aboms, to a lesser extent now hydras), so it is absolutely perfect. Slightly more expensive, but definitely worth it in my opinion.
Yes, I agree. In terms of Order versus Destro, I think that Destro is the force to specialize in if you want to go that route. As mentioned, Trolls, Crypt Horrors, HPA, Nurgle troops, Chimera.

Initially, I'm considering two units of Waywatchers, two units of Bodkin Glade Guard, one unit of +1 to Wound Glade. The numbers don't lie though, so I may switch that last unit over to Poison. The reason I'm favoring the Bodkin Glade Guard is because I see a lot of armor. Black Knight Busses, Mournfangs, Skullcrushers, Cold One Knights, Silverhelms, Ironbreakers are all standard opposition for me. Taking enough firepower to take down armor, plus one unit to negate Regeneration when applicable, sounds like a good place to start.

+++Edit: the other thing worth mentioning is arrow options for Glade Riders too! Poison seems obvious there for me... They'll often be moving, imposing negative To Hit modifiers, and so the ability to deal damage even with a small volume of fire seems to make Poison a strong choice. Just my opinion though.+++

It's worth mentioning though that with the rise in Ballistic Skill-based shooting, I'm also seeing a rise in items that impose negative To Hit modifiers. Those items weren't very useful in the day of cannons, but since High Elves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Ogres and now Wood Elves are bringing a lot of BS-based missile fire, these other items are becoming popular. For example, I ran into a Dwarf list with two Organ Guns, one that was entrenched and one with the RoCamouflage for a -2 to Hit penalty. Needless to say, shooting them off the board (normally quite easy) became much more difficult. Poison would be very, very valuable there.

@NonnoSte
I'd go Waywatchers + Sister Javelns for a couple rounds, redirecting as much as you need to with Eagles or Glade Riders, before plowing a unit of Wild Riders into them. 8 Wild Riders, reformed wide, kills 15 White Lions on the charge. That doesn't even include magic. Spend the first turn or two shooting to get board control, taking out Reavers/Helms/Sisters/RBTs. After that, prime the Lions with arrows and follow up with a Wildrider charge to finish the job.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by Rogue Sun »

Aren't Wild Riders forest spirits still? Thus magical attacks.
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by Tethlis »

Rogue Sun wrote:Aren't Wild Riders forest spirits still? Thus magical attacks.
Are they still? I thought that had changed. Well, use the Wild Riders to kill shooting units and focus missile fire on the White Lions then. T3 with no save versus Asrai missile fire, it shouldn't be that hard to do 30 to 40 Wounds over a few game turns...
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Re: The Arrow Thread

Post by overtninja »

Is the math going on in this thread taking into account that Asrai bows give 1AP by default? Provided AP stacks, those bodkin arrows would be -4AP total, which is pretty serious. 1AP would also slightly change the math for the rest of the arrows as well.
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