Tethlis' Army Blog: 2 new Batreps, updated 5/5

Share your tactical prowess and learn new ways of beating your foes with all the might of the Asrai.

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Tethlis
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Tethlis' Army Blog: 2 new Batreps, updated 5/5

Post by Tethlis »

Following a tradition of mine, I wanted to create a central thread where I could share lists and battle reports, and hear the feedback and input of the community. For anyone who hasn't followed a series of army blog threads, they're a fantastic way for players to document and discuss how their army lists, playstyle and generalship evolve over time. Not only are they a useful tool for Warhammer players to share ideas, but they're a great way for members of a community to get to know one another better as players rather than anonymous internet users :smirk:.

As an Elven player who has enjoyed both casual and tournament play for nearly twenty years, I'm very attached to my Wood Elves. Unlike a lot of people posting on the internet, I average 3 games of Fantasy a week, and have played that regularly and steadily for years. I only mention this because often you're hearing feedback from people whose knowledge of the tabletop is purely theoretical. For those who aren't familiar with comp in the Western United States, we generally don't follow an existing format (though the concepts of Swedish and ETC are growing in popularity.) I felt this point was worth mentioning, because players from different areas of the world will be bound by different notions of what's acceptable in list building, and what isn't. Since the book is still new, I assume that noone is going to be overly concerned yet about how comp impacts the Wood Elf army. It's too early to tell!

For now, I know the book hasn't officially dropped yet, but I feel that we have enough information to start thinking about how our lists are going to shape up. Note that I didn't set out to create a themed Elven list, but ended up using primarily Elves anyway. My big concern with the Forest Spirits is that they're very static, no longer hit hard with their Strength reduction and no ASF, and their durability (while higher than Elves) isn't high enough to warrant the drawbacks of the first two factors. I remember reading once that in a fight, one shouldn't block when they have the option of evading. Blocking a strike pits your strength, resilience and technique directly against that of your opponent. If you miscalculate the situation, you suffer the consequences directly. If you evade, however, there's no risk to yourself (except perhaps setting yourself up for another hit, but that's getting off topic.) The 6th edition book taught us that avoidance is always a recourse for us; that theory has been reinforced by the effectiveness of the Warlockstar for Dark Elf players.

With that in mind, I want a list that can rock the current meta by removing armor from the table with ease: Daemon Princes, Monstrous Cavalry, Cavalry busses, elite infantry, and other high points-per-Wound units. The first segment of solving that riddle is specialty arrow types for units (this includes the new capabilities of Waywatchers.) The second part involves rehashing our Cavalry.

Note, of course, that these pointcosts are tentative and based on rumor. They may be inaccurate according to what some have heard, or may prove inaccurate in the long run. This is a speculative list, so regard it accordingly!

The principle is that the Level 4 and BSB run with the Sisters, offering a unit that's resilient to both missile fire and magic (3++ versus spells) while providing support for the rest of the force and denying points.

The Glade Riders are emergency redirectors, while also hunting chaff and ensuring board control. They can also help to direct and control Frenzy on the Wild Riders. The Glade Guard are specialized for two roles; anti-armor, and anti-Monster. I think their loadouts speak for themselves.

Since I believe this army can establish control of the Movement Phase very easily, I think it can get away with having a minimal combat presence. The Wildwood Rangers and Wild Riders provide high Initiative, high-Strength attacks for intercepting threats or charging to finish off units when necessary.

The Waywatchers form the primary offensive power of the list. They supplement the killing power of the Glade Guard (or, more appropriately, the Glade Guard supplement them.) Their versatility in firepower is pretty much ideal for the varied meta I see; they can bust armor, and they can help clear hordes.

Obviously, this is all subject to change. I would like to use the two new Treemen I've already preordered, but I'll reserve final judgment until we have full rules. I'll be playing 3 or 4 games with the new book the instant I have it in my hands, and doing full battle reports accordingly. Comments welcome.

Lord
Spellsinger (Level 4) with Lore of Shadow or Heavens, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Preservation, Elven Steed.
303

Hero
Noble with battle standard, Hail of Doom Arrow, Elven Steed
145

Core
Glade Riders (5) with musician
110

Glade Riders (5) with musician
110

Glade Riders (5) with musician
110

Glade Guard (10) with musician, Arcane Bodkins
180

Glade Guard (10) with musician, Arcane Bodkins
180

Glade Guard (10) with musician, standard, Banner of the Eternal Flame, Starfire Arrows
180

Special
Sisters of the Thorn (7) with full command, Lichebone Pendant
227

Wildwood Rangers (21) with full command, Vanguard Banner
286

Wild Riders (9) with full command, Gleaming Pendant
272

Rare
Waywatchers (10)
200 points

Waywatchers (10)
200 points

Total: 2500
Last edited by Tethlis on 05 May 2014, 20:22, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by frogboy »

It's very refreshing to read such a calm post after all the hectic posting and Internet rumour trawling I've seen over the last week or so. I think this thread will benefit a lot of us here so I would like to thank you for that also. I always enjoy hearing from experienced players as I play hardly any games of Warhammer, that's not out of choice mind, I would love to get 3 games in a week. I'm particularly interested in your choice of Magic lore. I had a hard enough time deciding which one to choose when there were only three, so hearing any thoughts you have on magic will be interesting.

I like the list, with what you say, a minimum combat presence, ready to move in and finish things off. How will you intercept and deal with Chimeras/flying Doombulls and the like.

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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Allendor »

OK Tethlis,
You got my attention. You are one of my favorite friends and not just here (druchii as well)
I will follow this thread with great interest.

Love what you put together even though it is conjectured now .

Wildwood Rangers?
What the heck are they?

Sad to not see Warhawk riders.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Krofna »

I will be monitoring this thread closely.

I'm keen on Wildwood Rangers also, not sure if I'd like an unit like you propose or a Horde of 30-40.

Do you think one unit of Warhawk Riders would be a good warmachine hunter?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Tethlis »

It's nice to hear from you guys.

@frogboy
We're all pretty accustomed to the craziness that accompanies the release of a new book. Obviously, nothing any of us do or say will change what GW has already decided to publish, so instead it makes sense to focus on the units we end up with. I personally think this release is rather painless... I have some reservations about Forest Spirits, as mentioned, but I like what I see and hear in general. Also, please don't think I was taking any kind of stab when I talked about playing games. Some people are fortunate that their communities and schedules allow them to play regularly.

As for magic, I'm happy to say that I don't think there's really a wrong answer. Much of it will come down to preference and what units and playstyle you prefer. I personally like Shadow and Heavens. Shadow for obvious reasons... Miasma is offensive and defensive, Enfeebling Foe helps durable Forest Spirits become more durable, and Withering is simply powerful for mixed shooting/combat armies like Elves. Pit of Shades is a good solution for warmachines, particularly castled warmachines. I also haven't cast Mindrazor in a long time, but it's there for players who want it. With regard to Heavens, it has (arguably) the best default spell in the game. Stacking negative To Hit penalties is always good for Asrai. The other spells provide a good mix of Augments, Hexes and especially Direct Damage. Once again, spells like Chain Lightning or Comet can deter castled opponents, which can often be problematic.

@Allendor
Thanks for chiming in, bud. In case you haven't read by now, the Rangers are a unit functionally similar to White Lions or Executioners, i.e. great weapon wielding Elves. Their armor is poor, and they're only Strength 3, but their special rule is that they gain +1 Attack when fighting an enemy who causes Fear or Terror. Their also slightly cheaper than Lions/Execs too, so they add some ranked combat punch to a Wood Elf list.

@Krofna
I think a big horde of Rangers is perfectly functional. I've been using smaller units of White Lions for a long time, so I'm comfortable with 21-strong (that way they're not a focal point of my list in case they all die). Nothing wrong with hording them up though. Also, regarding Warhawks, I do think they're a good unit. I may include a unit of them if I find I need to be able to get into a castled backline more quickly, or if I see opportunities to assassinate hostile casters. For players who want to use them, I think they show great promise.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by CauCaSus »

Looking forward to reading about your experiences with this new book! :)
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by NonnoSte »

Hi Tethlis, I'm very glad to see you start an army blog here, since I've been following the one you have on Ulthuan, which eventually was one of the two that convinced me to start the Asur alongside my beloved Woodies.
I like the list and probably will be one of the first pattern to follow due to its similarity to DE's avoidance lists (and we all know how well it works).
Unfortunately the vanguard banner is out of reach for Rangers (75pts!!!).
Have you considered Eternal Guards? They look pretty solid and stubborn is always nice to have. They could be a great anchor to develop around.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by CauCaSus »

One can always put the bsb with the vanguard banner in the unit. Or moonstone them. Or walk between worlds! :D
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by chickenbane »

.This looks like an interesting thread to follow, despite my obvious hostility towards you as you get 2-3 games in a week :)
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by brechttomme »

I'll be following this thread for sure! I think it's always interesting to see the development of army lists as more and more games are played and new tactics are discovered or units were under-/overvalued theoretically. I would consider doing an army blog like this too, if only to recount my own findings, except that it would be extremely slow as I don't play anywhere near 3 games a week! You lucky son of an elf!. One interesting thing I noted in your current list is that you're not planning on taking any Great Eagles. Two of those little buggers were always the first thing to be included in my lists, and I highly doubt that'd change now. They will still be the best redirectors (assuming they stay the same) and are so amazingly versatile. Did you forgo them just because you felt the points were needed elsewhere? Or that you won't need to use them as redirectors as much and have different options for their other roles?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Tethlis »

Thanks for the comments, all. I've already got games lined up this weekend, probably against Warriors of Chaos, Dwarves and Vampire Counts, so we should be off to a great start as far as reporting things. I also use Battle Chronicler extensively, so diagrams should be in the mix as well.

@NonnoSte
I hadn't heard that the Vanguard banner is 75 points, so obviously that changes a few things! Good to know. I'll be curious to see the specific rules for it, because that seems like a lot of points and a heavy tax to pay (BSB only). I would think from the Dwarf book that GW didn't price Vanguard so highly, but obviously Elves and M3 Dwarves are two different things. For Eternal Guard, I think quite a bit will depend on point cost. I do like the idea of having a block that can slow down troops trying to eat my backline, but obviously you need to dump a lot of points into Eternal Guard in order to make them big enough to last more than a round or two. I do think that their Stubborn is a significant asset though.

@CauCaSus
Good point. If the banner brings any other bonuses to the table, it might be worth having on a BSB. A BSB on Elven Steed could Vanguard an Infantry unit, and still zip over to join a Sister unit and stay out of trouble. We'll have to see how badly that wastes the BSB's potential though... Seems like a good caddy for Hail of Doom Arrow or Bow of Loren, potentially.

@chickenbane
My schedule is fortunate that way. Lately, I typically get two games on a Saturday, one game on a Tuesday night, one game on a Wednesday night. It helps that the lady friend often works evenings, so doesn't object to me meeting with my club a few times a week.

@brechttomme
Agreed, this is a very nice time to be starting an army blog. Everyone is interested in concrete examples of how the army plays (i.e. battle reports), and wants to share ideas back and forth. I really encourage army blogs... They've become a great phenomenon over on Ulthuan.net, giving rise to a lot of fantastic ideas and playstyles. As for Eagles, the lack of flying in the list is something I'm nervous about, so adding Eagles might be a functional solution. I used to use them a lot as a High Elf player, obviously, until Core Fast Cavalry let me phase them out of my list. Obviously Glade Riders have been around a while, and only appear to be getting better and better in terms of options and upgrades, as well as having the obvious benefit of being Core. I'll see if I can rely on them for the time being, and then add/tweak as necessary depending on how my games go. I plan to give all the units a fair shake, despite my reluctance towards Dryads and Treekin, so everything should see some table time at one point or another.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Agree about the Tree Spirits. Treekin look very dodgy now (will try 4 with champ just to see). Treemen are still going to get Flamed off the board but they are very good in other match-ups and hey, they are a great fluff pick. Dryads probably usable but I can't see the build yet.

What's exercising me the most is how to beat Daemons. I think we should have the measure of WoC and 1+ save Empire now. Shadow just looks really, really good against Beasts/Drones because of Pit and Withering.

EG are good because they are Core. Tethlis' list fills this up with GR's (so he doesn't need eagles so much, a la High Elves) and archers. I tend to feel that mid-sized units of Wild Riders should have a character or two but maybe testing will prove me wrong.

Edit: ninja'd by the thread guy!
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Gurthaur »

Rumor has it, that Glade Riders will be able to ambush, just for your consideration.

This promises to become an interesting thread. I can see why shadows is an obvious choice for the lvl 4,
but since i conclued you are also an experienced dark elf player, i would like to hear your thoughts on Dark Magic.
As i know the lore just from the receiving end, and of course am tempted to use the new stuff we get,
i was playing around with the thought of a similar list with a lvl 4 on Dark.

Reasoning would be that there are great synergies of the Sisters with Power of Darkness, since they are a good target for a ST buff.
(ST 4, AP poisoned Javelins) while beeing able to heal the mage with Shield of Thorns if he happens to roll a 3.
Word of Pain could help to mitigate losses to BS based shooting as well as in Melee.
In the sisters the Mage is in a good place to get somewhere where Shroud of dispair affects quite some units, and panic tests from shooting should throw the enemy ranks in disarray.
( I especialy love the idea of that from a fluffy point of view :) )
Doombolt is obvious and Black Horror should get of comparably safely given the Units Wardsave and possible magic resistance.

Well all of this is obviously just the theorization you were talking about in your initial post, since i never ever used Dark Magic before, and as stated i am rather tempted to use it, now that i can. :)
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Adahy »

Looking forward to hearing the thoughts of the best fantasy player I know.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Phil Rossiter »

I've played elves the whole of 8th and have never used Shadow.

The reason I believe it is such a good fit here is the armour-busting. This deals with some problems, letting you take magic that can deal with others. The old book had no good answer to Daemons. Unless we take tools that deal with them head-on we will be run straight over.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Tethlis »

Daemons are a big question mark, for sure. I'm actually planning to borrow some Daemons in the next few weeks just to take the Wall of Nurgle for a spin and see firsthand how it performs. I fully admit to needing more practice against it, so that's high on the agenda.

@Phil Rossiter
All good points, I'm with you on all of them. I think Empire and WoC are going to be in trouble, and we may see big meta shifts brought about by the ability of Wood Elves to tear up armor. The fact that 20 AP GG, and 20 Waywatchers can go through a Knight Bus in a couple rounds of shooting (even without hexes/augments) is going to make Empire players sit up and pay attention. I'm curious to see how this list does against a typical WoC Nurgle setup... AKA how many 6s can I roll to Wound a Daemon Prince. The nice thing is that, with a relatively MSU style approach, it doesn't hurt too badly to flee a Daemon Prince charge, let him eat the unit and overrun, and leave him exposed for more arrow fire while denying his ability to regain Wounds. Disc Characters will be a bit tough I think, since they're relying mostly on that good Ward Save. For Daemons though, including at least one unit with Flaming shooting just makes sense. Perhaps even Banner of the Eternal Flame on Wild Riders or WWR, to help optimize them for killing Beasts or Drones. I'll have to think on it.

Interesting also that you haven't taken Shadow for a spin. I've experimented a lot with other lores, just so I don't get too dependent on Shadow, but the thing I prefer the most is the double punch of Pit of Shades/Withering. For many armies, both of those spells are high-priority Dispels, and it's rare they can shut them both down over extended turns. Since Toughness is still a good defense versus Strength 3 arrows, armor-ignoring or not, I think that the pressure Shadow can apply is even more devastating. Considering a lot of other popular lores (Metal, Death, Heavens, Life) are also relying heavily on one or two key casts at important moments of the game, I don't see Shadow being at much of a disadvantage even with its high casting values.

Tying back to Daemons once again, Shadow is definitely a solution for Nurgle. Miasma can drop their already poor WS even lower, and helps ensure Plague Bearers spend many, many turns marching across the board. Enfeebling Foe also knocks down their fairly low Strength, making them rely almost entirely on Poison to do any damage. Withering is obvious... Pit of Shades is obvious... And even something like Enfeebling Foe has its place if you can run to the flank of Drones or Beasts and send it down their line.

@Gurthaur
Great question about Dark Magic. I think it has a lot of potential for Dark Elves. I made a post somewhere on the forums summarizing my thoughts, but basically I think Dark has the potential to be a much better lore for Wood Elves than it ever was for Dark Elves. It has a Strength buff, messes with Leadership to help maximize our Fear and Panic capability, has a couple great anti-horde spells, and a fantastic hex debuff. I like your point about Sisters being relatively safe from Black Horror too. I'll see if I can find that original post of mine and repost it here, but I definitely want to try Dark Magic on the table. I had heard that only a certain Special Character could take Dark... Or maybe that characters was the only one who could take Dark AND High? The book's release will give us a clear picture, obviously.

@Adahy
Thanks bud. Are you going to get to put these guys on the table any time soon out there? Or you going to have to wait for the next con/tournament to swing around?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by CauCaSus »

How much are the +1 to wound and flaming (they have flaming, right?) arrows per model? If you know you are facing deamons, that might be better than banner of eternal flame depending on size of the unit.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by NonnoSte »

Probably the best bet against Daemons are the Rangers: ItP, Str5 and +1A again fear/terror causing is ideal to deal against most of their army, especially with BoEF.
I can see them struggle just with Daemonettes, but again, they've never been a trouble for shooting armies.
Massed arrow-fire (starfire will help a lot) and Rangers should do it.
Furthermore 5 Wild Riders now could effectively take down a Skullcannon with 15 Str 5 AP ASF attacks on the charge. It should be 12 hits, 6 wounds to be saved at 6+/5++ just from the riders. Even if it survives, it should crumble in resolution.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by Malkrit »

I'm very interested to see how this'll develope. I might open one myself!
Great idea, Tethlis! :thumbsup:
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by MarkM »

CauCaSus wrote:How much are the +1 to wound and flaming (they have flaming, right?) arrows per model? If you know you are facing deamons, that might be better than banner of eternal flame depending on size of the unit.
The arrow upgrades range from 1.5 SS to 2.5 SS. The flaming ones (both types) sit in the middle of that range. BoEF is cheaper in all cases, but misses out on the +1 to wound (Destro/Order) and may be better placed on a combat unit.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by popisdead »

A couple of the arrows are already flaming, nice touch to not need the flaming banner.
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by gingersmali »

I don't see why you'd take anything except min core, scouts are a better choice then glade guard. I'd also probs only take 2 units of glade riders. Where are the eagles?
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by MarkM »

Eagles are where you expect them. Rare and no price change and no upgrade options. Apparently we can't sharpen their claws like HE :)
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by EtherDude »

Hi Tethlis,

I'm glad you're posting this type of thread for your WE. I've followed your HE one with great interest.

Some initial thoughts:

1) Sisters of thorn =/= warlocks because they lack the same combat power. They also don't have a 6-dice-win spell like empowered doom bolt. They are good, to be sure, and I think you've got it right that they are more of a character escort than anything else.

2) Core: there are a couple of things going on here; I think the common consensus will be minimal core, favoring eagles over glade riders. You may disagree, and that's fine, I think it'll come down to how glade riders compare to elyrian reavers. As for your glade guard, what do you think about poison vs armor piercing? You're basically comparing rolling a "6" to hit then failing armor vs hitting then rolling a "6" to wound, not to mention the redundancy with waywatchers.

I think it comes down to your magic lore; heavens/metal/dark I feel like poison shots might be better while shadows/death point you more toward the armor pen. arrows. Poison arrows + heavens makes wall of nurgle cry. Any idea if we're keeping s4 at close range? As mentioned star/sun fire arrows may come with flaming.

3) Characters: I love that WE don't need characters, it's really great. That said, I think your magic lore will be huge and I think you may lack the oomph needed to get withering off with your lvl 4. In this case, I'd guess it's going to be 6-dice withering and remaining dice go to miasma/pit of shades. Again, would love to hear your thoughts on dark/not shadows or death. Another thing to think about is that in a wood, your ranger fellas get +1A and will bust steadfast with ease. With curse from the sisters, you're looking at some serious DT tests.

Hail of doom: does it work with special arrows? If so...wow...if not, keep in mind you'll be at -1 for moving and -1 for multishot in addition to cover etc. Another thing is you might not be able to march and fire, depending on if elven steeds are fast cav or not.

Where I'm going with this is the acorn of ages, since you can choose the forest type. Therefore, you could take 40 eternal guard and plop them in a poison forest, netting 40 asf AP poisoned attacks on a stubborn unit and not have to take DT because of forest striders. At the same time, your mage is going to get +1 to cast in woods (combine with book of ashur for +2? points become an issue) making it all the more attractive.

This is moving away from the list you have here, but I wanted to make suggestions because your unit sizes and compositions look VERY similar to your high elf ones, and I don't think the units translate across that nicely, especially s6 stubborn white lions vs wildwood rangers. Better comparison IMO is swordmasters/wildwood rangers.

Finally, while I really like this style of list (I really hate the current meta game), I don't know how well you'll do against flying super men. Since you have very little combat power, if you get caught you're in trouble, and 20" flying chargers have a knack for hiding until they can jump out and goof you up. You'll wreck monstrous cav, knight busses and war machines, but the demon prince, 3++ chaos lord and scar vets may still give you a hard time.

Looking forward to more!
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Re: Tethlis' Army Blog: New Book, New Thoughts

Post by InstantKarma »

I feel like my Wood Elf IQ just went up a few ticks by reading these posts. I'm gonna try to check in regularly after I get my new book and take a crack at making a list.
A project with two of my friends on being new to Warhammer Fantasy.
http://taleof3wargamers.wordpress.com/
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