Sisters of the Thorn Discussion

[Tethlis]

With the rules leaked for Sisters of the Thorn, I was curious about player's initial impressions. I feel like they've been flushed out enough by multiple sources for their rules to be pretty much confirmed.

Clearly, they're similar to Warlocks in a lot of ways. Ward Save, Fast Cav, and they know Curse of Anraheir and Shield of Thorns. Their miscast results are negligible as well. However, the two spells are not as devastating as the 6-diced attempts of their Warlock counterparts. Also, they're a lot less effective in combat. Instead, they rely on shooting with Poison.

The missile attack makes them much better as a dedicated character bunker unit compared to Warlocks. They'll be accurate on the move, and also get a decent stand-and-shoot (for what it's worth.) They certainly don't belong in combat against anything but very light opposition, unless a wall of more durable combat characters is screening them. They'll be a good escort for mounted ranged characters or a Spellsinger though... Resistant to range and still able to contribute without needing to get into combat.

Depending on overall mundane armor save options, a cav bus that won't be shot off the table instantly could be a potential setup for Wood Elves now. Even if they were only 20 ppm though, they're still not an obvious choice in the way Warlocks are. I do think that Curse of Anraheir is a fantastic spell, one that remains useful throughout the entire duration of the game. One or two units of these gals, plus a Level 4, does provide a varied magic phase with respectable versatility.

Other opinions?

[dusk1983]

As someone else mentioned in the other thread, aren't javelins strength as User? Which means Wyssan's can give them S4 shots. For whatever thats worth.

[overtninja]

Curse of Anraheir is one of the better spells in LoBeasts, and having a unit that can cast it means that your other casters are free to use other lores. Also, it's a hex, so it might work well with Dark magic if that lore attribute pans out.

Their stats aren't amazing but poisoned javelins are actually good, especially with that movement speed and being fast cav. They'd never have to see combat if you didn't want them to, and they still have enough punch to flank-charge something that's mostly dead to finish it off. We're still not a force that wants to get stuck-in to combat - we want our combats decisive and extremely one-sided, where we crush our opponents, deny him steadfast, and mow him off the table. between the hexes being mobile harassment, they can contribute to that style of play well.

[Dalsgaard]

While Curse of A is a good spell I would use a lot, shield of thorns is not. I had hoped for regrowth. I would still field a unit of these as it brings the curse to the table without having to choose LoB.

It is not an autoinclude unit from the look of it, but that is not what we want anyways, right? And we still need to see the rest of the armybook.

[Artorias]

Better than glade riders, no real argument there. I would take this unit whenever I would have taken the riders. Depending on the cost per unit I can see these used in most armies regardless of size, but in larger point games, the curse will always be viable and the points will definitely be there for a fast cav harass unit.

One thing WE loves to do is control the movement phase, like with placing great eagles in front of a horde to give them no advantageous movement. With a fast cav Curse of Anraheir, we have another source of this, but we can actually kill things with it. Of course with the curse they can still move however they want, but picking the right unit, you can make it cost your opponent.

[Samoht]

They seem to be designed to take a unicorn riding character.

[Tethlis]

The best thing about Shield of Thorns, in my opinion, is the Lore Attribute. If you regard Shield of Thorns as being "Restore 1 Wound to a model within 12 inches... Oh yeah, and some damage" then suddenly it seems better. If you have Hero level characters down to their last Wound, or a Stubborn Treeman trying to hold up an opponent, then the spell has a bit more use.

[Drstrangelove]

What I like about them
-Fast cav!
-Synergy of the two spells chosen with our playstyle: Curse holds people back from charging giving us more time to shoot, whilst Shield of Thorns is clearly designed for our new found forest spirit anvils to grind things out.
-The fact that they WEREN'T given a magic missile. This is where warlocks went wrong, esp one as powerful as doombolt, as just chucking a million dice at it is an easy choice when it doesn't require any synergy with the rest of the army to get VPs.
-Missile weapons on fast cav: great alternative to a MM. Means that even if you are short on power dice, you can circle-shoot stuff from close up and with poison/AP there is a decent chance of doing some damage against everything bar a +1 save (but hey, it seems the whole book has given us no tools there......but realistically only empire, WoC, LM and DE have 1+ saves running around everywhere)
-Not brilliant in combat: should have a weakness and do. But not utterly useless either, so balanced nicely.
-Special: not rare. Although I doubt anyone will take 3 units (see below) this is great as it means we still have plenty of treemen points to spend

What I dislike
-4+ ward on units. This just strikes me as awful design. You can be incredibly dumb with them and still survive. Particularly in light of how this will cause them to consider the already insipid miscast consequences as utterly unworthy of notice........dumbdumbdumb. I'd much rather they had a 4+ armour save against ranged attacks (some kind of white lion style cloak would do the trick), give them some resilience against bows and fireballs...........and leave them open to getting smashed by wolf riders in combat. As it is.........gah.
-Casting value of the spells: essentially means people are only going to take one unit (or max two big units) as the number of dice you have to throw to get Curse off is 3 and Thorns off is 2. Given most lists are probably running a LV4 (either TMA or weaver) plus a Lv1 caddy on metal (my prediction) there is really not enough dice for more than one unit of Sisters. Besides there is unlikely to be more than one unit needing Thorns at once, whilst there can only be a given number of targets wanting to charge you (and hence can benefit from Curse). I'd have rather they got two low casting value spells rather than two medium, but the trend was set with warlocks I suppose. The difference is that soulblight can be bubbled and Doombolt is worth chucking that many dice at as many times as you can.

[Madison]

I wonder if the Curse stack. Getting -2 to hit in close combat will hurt a lot. One curse from the sisters + another one from the Beastweaver, add some Wissan's wildform and the combat will turn terribly ugly for an opponent

[Avian]

If the rumors about them having poisoned attacks are true it will make them VERY effective in a warmachine hunting role. Warmachines often don't have much by way of armor and rely on their high toughness vs shooting attacks. Again assuming that the rumors of the stags being fast cav are true it would mean that they can vanguard then move forward and then shoot away the cannon that would otherwise threaten your treeman or treekin quite badly as well as any casting damage they do.

[Gurthaur]

You would still need quite a bunch of them to get those 6´s realiably. I for once wouldnt like to linger around a canon in 12", even with a 4+ ward.

But even if i was bitching around in the rumors thread about their looks, rulewise i think they are a great unit.
Most of the reasons have already benn stated, i would like to add, that now, that we have acces to dark magic, i would say they make a decent bunker for a dark magic user.
Given that javelins use the users strenght, the sisters would be a nice place to cast power of darkness, since they will probably always be in rang eof something to fire at, so that ST buff has reasonable use in many cases. Add the fact, that they can heal the caster with thorn shield if he happened to roll a 3, thats a neat place for him to be.

[Coyle_Ravane]

If the rumors about them having poisoned attacks are true it will make them VERY effective in a warmachine hunting role. Warmachines often don't have much by way of armor and rely on their high toughness vs shooting attacks. Again assuming that the rumors of the stags being fast cav are true it would mean that they can vanguard then move forward and then shoot away the cannon that would otherwise threaten your treeman or treekin quite badly as well as any casting damage they do.

They aren't rumours, wd pics confirm it all.

They are going to be an awesome support unit. I plan to use 11 with a l2 dark singer. Power of darkness for 11xs4 poisoned javelins.

Edit: also surprisingly decent in combat, asf + poison attacks, 6+4++ and s4 mounts, power of darkness makes them s4, thorns for extra s3 hits and curse to improve their survivability (not that your opponent will let you cast all of that).

I can see these ladies stomping all over units of 20 or less core infantry with a flank charge.

[Avian]

They aren't rumours, wd pics confirm it all.

They are going to be an awesome support unit. I plan to use 11 with a l2 dark singer. Power of darkness for 11xs4 poisoned javelins.

Edit: also surprisingly decent in combat, asf + poison attacks, 6+4++ and s4 mounts, power of darkness makes them s4, thorns for extra s3 hits and curse to improve their survivability (not that your opponent will let you cast all of that).

I can see these ladies stomping all over units of 20 or less core infantry with a flank charge.

Ah ok, I've not seen the pics yet. They're not in the rumors thread (or at least I didn't see them there, i might have missed them, could you pop a link up please?)

[Coyle_Ravane]

Ah ok, I've not seen the pics yet. They're not in the rumors thread (or at least I didn't see them there, i might have missed them, could you pop a link up please?)

[jgascoine011]

Btw, i have seen alot of people saying curse of anraheir can be used to force dangerous terrain in open ground because open ground is classed as terrain.

Yea guys stop cheating.

Try telling your O&G player that open ground is classed as terrain as all his fanatics die as soon as they are released.

Honestly the sisters of thorn look absolutely rubbish, and are probably more likely designed for 9th ed spells.


Currently the spells are

Shield of thorns:
It averages 7 S3 hits....and you have to be in combat to do this.

Curse of Anraheir
As I have just said, it in no way works on open ground.
So it is at best very situational.

All this wouldn't be too bad if they wern't more expensive than warlocks.
And then on top of that they cant use their wardsave on misscasts, lose 1 attack, loose poison in close combat (but do gain a 12" poison javalin) and are only S3.

I was so hoping for these rumors to be false but right now these have been the biggest disappointment.

[Mollesvinet]

First of all, open terrain is the first type of terrain listed under the various terrains in the rulebook. The orc&goblin book mentions "terrain pieces" as far as i know, not terrain. Otherwise it's just poor wording. I would say the dangerous terrain tests are pretty clearly intended even in open terrain.

Curse is an awesome spell, and probably the only one worth casting most of the time.

I agree that shield of thorns is mainly nice for the healing, though i suppose against small chaff units it can make a difference.

Second of all, as far as i can see then the sisters does have poison in close combat, it's under their special rules.

It does blow that we don't get ward against the miscast when warlocks do, but to be honest, i think it's fair enough and it should be the same for warlocks.

I actually like that the unit is a shooting unit, as warlocks often stay out of combat anyway while we can still do some good with these.

[Gwill_of_the_Woods]

Why do they lose poisoned attacks & 1A?

My meta have always played the curse as open terrain taking a DT test.

[Drstrangelove]

lose poison in close combat.

Look again.
Under their special rules it says "poisoned attacks (riders)". They have poison in close combat too, not just on the javelins.

Curse of anreheir is amazing, even if some (although not all) tournaments rule open terrain doesn't count. It's clear woods and other terrain still play a role in the WE playstyle and there will be plenty of dangerous terrain tests to take.
-1 to hit considering WE have high WS units..... is also very very good.

Question is: does a unit of 20 have a role? +5 to cast, amazing points denial potential, 50 points of magic banner gives a lot of room for a deathstar type build with wizards (agreed with everyone, power of darkness is looking BOSS in here, and wyssans will get milage too) and hitty or shooty characters (going to depend a lot on the magic items and mounts available to characters).

[Madison]

lose poison in close combat.

Look again.
Under their special rules it says "poisoned attacks (riders)". They have poison in close combat too, not just on the javelins.

Curse of anreheir is amazing, even if some (although not all) tournaments rule open terrain doesn't count. It's clear woods and other terrain still play a role in the WE playstyle and there will be plenty of dangerous terrain tests to take.
-1 to hit considering WE have high WS units..... is also very very good.

Question is: does a unit of 20 have a role? +5 to cast, amazing points denial potential, 50 points of magic banner gives a lot of room for a deathstar type build with wizards (agreed with everyone, power of darkness is looking BOSS in here, and wyssans will get milage too) and hitty or shooty characters (going to depend a lot on the magic items and mounts available to characters).

according to the picture their maximum for casting is +3 only. Also a unit of 20 will cost 520 pts not counting command and banner. That's quite a lot. 4++ is very good but still only T3 with 6+ AS. Mass shooting will take them down quite fast from my point of view.

[Drstrangelove]

Oh it's a stack of points (at least another 500 in characters to make it work), no argument there.
I read it as: you can only get the +1 benefit for the first three ranks after the first (ie maximum +3, added to the +2 for being a Lv2....hence +5)........but I'm willing to stand corrected. Otherwise they are essentially saying the only two numbers worth taking are 5 or 10.

Massed shooting is the bane of fast cav, but 4++ and the fact that unlike us everyone else takes penalties for shooting left right and centre........you can keep pretty safe.
Unlike a warlock deathstar we can shoot and hide in woods quite safely, which gives us more options than running and 6 dicing doombolt (which is all warlocks can do) which has a short range compared to Curse.

Anyway, I don't think I'll ever have the models to try it but once I have the book in my hand I certainly want to theory hammer it.

[jgascoine011]

I play dark elves and i love my warlocks, probably the best unit in the book (but actually fairly balanced).

The sisters however just look rubbish.
Okay they kept poison, but they are S3 and still only have 1 attack. Dont ever think of putting these girls in combat unless you have shield of thorns off and you are facing war hounds.

If shield of thorns was S4 then i could see a use for them for just getting the spell of early game and then throwing 3 units of 5 at a unit and doing 6D6 S4 hits which would be rather funny. But S3 just kills that.

If you class open ground as terrain the curse can be usefull but its hardly the amazing spell everyone on here seems to claim it is.

Also i cant tell you the amount of times the wardsave has saved my ass with my warlocks.

If the sisters were 20pts/model, got their ward save vs misscasts and shield of thorns was better then i could see a use for them. As of now I just cant see why you would ever take them.

[Drstrangelove]

I play dark elves and i love my warlocks, probably the best unit in the book (but actually fairly balanced)

Said no comp pack. Ever.

I agree that 20 points would have suited me. They could have dropped the option for command and magic banners, wouldn't have bothered me at all, don't think it's going to be used that often.

Just looked again: Sisters are in fact one point MORE than warlocks. W.T.F.

[itsuperslug]

I actually think the sisters look pretty cool (models and rules). Yes they're not as offensive (in every sense of the work) or broken as brolocks but that's not what they're in the army for.

Every unit in a WE army is there to support each other, not 'act' on it's own.

Sisters are fast cav meaning they can be where you need them. Multiple CoA (from multiple units) will stop/ slow the enemy (open terrain IS terrain) allowing you more bow shots! Nasty big monster. Take the charge with treekin/man and then rear/ flank charge with sisters, liberal use of SoT, problem solved!

Lots of nice possibilities

[Andrew]

Their miscast results are negligible as well.

I don't get this repeated nonsense. You lose D3 models when you miscast. How is losing 26-78 points and a likely panic check per miscast negligible???

They'll be a neat support unit; I wouldn't expect to see more than one unit of 5 though, unless you go big and take a 15+ unit for points denial.

They can heal/damage, or nerf with their spells. They're a great target for Wyssans so that they'd get S4, AP, poisoned shots.

The Curse DOES WORK on open ground.

- "treats all terrain as dangerous terrain"
- "Types of Terrain: Open Ground, Impassable Terrain, Mysterious Terrain, Dangerous Terrain."

It's a pretty big "duh" there.

On the other hand, if they just walk, they don't take the DT test, because it's only when you double move that you take the tests.

[Ramesesis]

I feel, due to the Collection and conversion possibilites I have using bits from DE spearmens, and all my HE and WE bits and unbuilt figs I am still pretty set to make my own stuff. But there is one box I feel I NEED to buy and that is Sisters of Thorns. I just need 5 of these lassies in my army. So witchy, so northern, so Norse and Kalevala.