New Treekin vs Old Treekin
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- Tegalad
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Re: New Treekin vs Old Treekin
16 iron breakers only 1 extra rank. Strength 4 vs t5 for them attacking S4 vs t4 us attacking... 18 attacks from us, 10 attacks from them? Am I missing something?
Re: New Treekin vs Old Treekin
My intention was not to pit the two units against each other, but to name a better anvil for the same points cost.
And WS 5. 3+ Armor and 5+ Parry should mak eup for the T4 vs T5. However, as i already stated the main selling point as an anvil for me is stubborn,
because the main quality i expect from an anvil is to hold the line and not run away. Im not saying that Treekin are a bad anvil, im just not sold on their qualities personaly.
That said, maybe stubborn isnt so much of a concern to you than it is to me. But i prefer it to play it save, since i tend to roll rather crappy for leadership tests, and saves that is.
A buddy of mine thinks parry is awesome, which figures since he usually rolles two 6´s out of 5 dice. To me parry is virtualy non existend, since i hardly manage to succesfully roll a save even at 5+.
And WS 5. 3+ Armor and 5+ Parry should mak eup for the T4 vs T5. However, as i already stated the main selling point as an anvil for me is stubborn,
because the main quality i expect from an anvil is to hold the line and not run away. Im not saying that Treekin are a bad anvil, im just not sold on their qualities personaly.
That said, maybe stubborn isnt so much of a concern to you than it is to me. But i prefer it to play it save, since i tend to roll rather crappy for leadership tests, and saves that is.
A buddy of mine thinks parry is awesome, which figures since he usually rolles two 6´s out of 5 dice. To me parry is virtualy non existend, since i hardly manage to succesfully roll a save even at 5+.
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- Wild Hunter
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Re: New Treekin vs Old Treekin
Comparing a WE anvil unit to a Dwarf one is never going to be a fair comparison, anvil is pretty much what dwarves do.
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- Wild Hunter
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Re: New Treekin vs Old Treekin
No-one is going to run a unit of 10 knights into 3x3 Treekin. Any mid-sized knight unit will have a character or two in there and that unit will beat up the Treekin. VC's, Bretonnians, HE's, DE's, Empire can all easily run a 3-deep knight unit in a competitive list which will not even pause for breath in going through that Treekin unit. 3-deep Skullcrushers? 3
Skullcrushers beat this unit.
I too thought that 270pts for six Treekin looked like decent value at first. But once you start to work out how combats against various enemy units will go it is ugly. They are in no way, shape or form a durable combat unit. What decent enemy unit can they beat? They lose on combat res and then they run.
As for the enemy unit getting shot/re-directed/magicked off the board, yes that can happen. But exactly the same thing can happen to the Treekin. Hold the charge (maybe) and get into the flank? The Treekin are 400+pts! Yes WE's have great shooting and redirectors, so do other elves. VC's have horrendous chaff-spam. Other armies have answers. The bottom line is that you cannot rely on another unit saving the Treekin, they have to be at least reasonably functional in combat to start and they are not. Yes you can buff with magic but the TK are M5, they will usually get charged. So the enemy gets the chance to get his buff in first. If you buff before he charges, he chooses a different target because he flies or is M8 for example.
Of course something in the book could change this. But these are the mechanics as things stand.
Skullcrushers beat this unit.
I too thought that 270pts for six Treekin looked like decent value at first. But once you start to work out how combats against various enemy units will go it is ugly. They are in no way, shape or form a durable combat unit. What decent enemy unit can they beat? They lose on combat res and then they run.
As for the enemy unit getting shot/re-directed/magicked off the board, yes that can happen. But exactly the same thing can happen to the Treekin. Hold the charge (maybe) and get into the flank? The Treekin are 400+pts! Yes WE's have great shooting and redirectors, so do other elves. VC's have horrendous chaff-spam. Other armies have answers. The bottom line is that you cannot rely on another unit saving the Treekin, they have to be at least reasonably functional in combat to start and they are not. Yes you can buff with magic but the TK are M5, they will usually get charged. So the enemy gets the chance to get his buff in first. If you buff before he charges, he chooses a different target because he flies or is M8 for example.
Of course something in the book could change this. But these are the mechanics as things stand.
Re: New Treekin vs Old Treekin
That is true of course. Ironbreakers are probably the best Anvil unit in the game, and they were just an example of a better anvil for the same pointscost, as demanded.Coyle_Ravane wrote:Comparing a WE anvil unit to a Dwarf one is never going to be a fair comparison, anvil is pretty much what dwarves do.
As for Wood elves Treekin are just fine as an anvil unit, at least statwise. As i mentioned what bothers me is the lack of either a) numbers to gain steadfast or b) stubborn to ignore the need of said numbers.
There probably was a slight misunderstanding. I was looking at them from the "they are so cheap now, we can take 9 for the price of 6 and get us a super awesome anvil" perspective.
Whereas, they should be more looked upon at the "you can get 2 units of 3-4 of them fairly cheap now to intercept enemy overrun moves and open up their units for flank charges while receiving relativly few wounds themselves" perspectiv. In which they are pretty great.
- godswearhats
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Re: New Treekin vs Old Treekin
I think this makes them work like other Wood Elf units - better with a combo charge than as a "fair fight" unit.
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- Wild Hunter
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Re: New Treekin vs Old Treekin
The problem (as in general) is M5. MSU Treekin can help pull off great combo charges where you are faster than the enemy. But against Bretonnians, cav-heavy elves, Daemons, WoC, 1+ AS Empire etc. etc. they are very vulnerable. An MSU infantry unit can challenge with a champion for example and often hold on Steadfast. If three Treekin do this the enemy kills a model and they are no longer Steadfast. Four with a champ is better for this and may be the way forward.
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- Bladesinger
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Re: New Treekin vs Old Treekin
I don't think Treekin have to get the jump on anyone. Merely take the charge and survive a whole one combat round until the cavalry literally arrive, thus creating the desired multicombat.
Question is whether you can goad people into charging them, I I suspect the answer is yes on two counts: 1) people overestimate their units ability to push through wounds on T5, and 2) when everything else is fast cav and running them around in small circles I think they will take any opportunity for a combat that is presented.
Question is whether you can goad people into charging them, I I suspect the answer is yes on two counts: 1) people overestimate their units ability to push through wounds on T5, and 2) when everything else is fast cav and running them around in small circles I think they will take any opportunity for a combat that is presented.
".....and you are ugly! But it the morning I shall be sober!"
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- Wild Hunter
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Re: New Treekin vs Old Treekin
Merely survive a combat round? Not against anything decent. When you look at the units they are likely to face and start crunching the numbers it is not good. Take 3 Skullcrushers for example. This will likely break the unit of six in one round unless you have not only the BSB but also a Ld10 General handy. The 9 will hold and die slowly. Combo-charges are not easy to set up, especially when your combat units are mostly M5. If the enemy has fewer points in contact with the Treekin and is still beating them, why should the WE player be able to introduce an extra unit where the enemy can't?Drstrangelove wrote:I don't think Treekin have to get the jump on anyone. Merely take the charge and survive a whole one combat round until the cavalry literally arrive, thus creating the desired multicombat.
If you have a lot of cavalry you will have a better chance to pick your fights and organise comb-charges it's true. But will the M9/Swiftstride cavalry be hanging around to support M5 Treekin? A good player will know whether his units (because he will quite likely have a better chance of a combo-charge than the Treekin) can charge and take the Treekin out or not. If he fancies it, he'll charge, if not he'll avoid them.Drstrangelove wrote:Question is whether you can goad people into charging them, I I suspect the answer is yes on two counts: 1) people overestimate their units ability to push through wounds on T5, and 2) when everything else is fast cav and running them around in small circles I think they will take any opportunity for a combat that is presented