New Treekin vs Old Treekin

[frogboy]

Disscuss...

before 6 treekins costed 390 points. Now you can almost get 9 treekins for the same amount.

I did some maths on this.

5 Blood knights charge 6 of the old treekins.

7*3+1 Attacks = 22 Attacks.

22*0,66=14,52 wounds --> no As --> 0,66*14,52 --> 9,6 wounds --> 3 treekins dead

3 Treekins strike back: 9*0,5=4,5 --> 4,5*0,66=3wounds but they should save 1 or 2.

Looks like blood knights win big. with CR:11 and treekins have 1 or 2.

Against 9 treekins with two ranks.

7*3+1 Attacks = 22 Attacks.

22*0,66=14,52 wounds --> no As --> 0,83*14,52 --> 12 wounds --> 4 treekins dead

5 Treekins strike back: 15 attacks --> 7,5 hits --> 3,75 wounds --> armor saves for BK: 0,33*2,75=1,24.

BK will have CR:14 and treekins will have 1.

But agins silver helms(without all of the above) i calculated for 15 SK aginst a unit of 9 new treekins.

SK kills one treekin(almost)
TK kills two SK.
SK CR: 3+1+1+1 = 6(or 5 if they failed to do 3 wounds)
TK CR: 2+1= 3(or 4 if they are still 9)

Should be fixed wiht ld9 or 10 and a bsb. They will even be steadfast if they didnt loose the last wound.

Sorry, i appreciate your efffort, and i get your point, but honestly i think Bloodknights arent the very best example, since the fact that they sport ST 7 Attacks is rather uncommon even for elite or Monstrous cavalry. Also if you are serious with your mathmammer you shouldnt just asume, that every hit they land wounds. It can make quite the difference. There wil be 1´s, and if there are 1´s they cause 10.2 wounds. Tthats is 3 Treekin and your unit is steadfast.

[frogboy]

Looks like you forgot stomp too.

The Blood knight comparison doesn't tell us anything, as either version of treekin gets utterly spanked.

A comparison of old TK and new TK vs silverhelms would have been far more relevant. By my estimation, it leaves old TK losing only narrowly, New tk lose by 1 or two more, but are likely to be steadfast.

[frogboy]

Looks like you forgot stomp too.

You can't stomp cavalry.

[frogboy]

before 6 treekins costed 390 points. Now you can almost get 9 treekins for the same amount.

I did some maths on this.

5 Blood knights charge 6 of the old treekins.

7*3+1 Attacks = 22 Attacks.

22*0,66=14,52 wounds --> no As --> 0,66*14,52 --> 9,6 wounds --> 3 treekins dead

22*0,66=14,52 wounds --> no As --> 0,83*14,52 --> 12 wounds --> 4 treekins dead

May want to double check those numbers. They haven't lost any survivability, just a pip of strength.

[frogboy]

Looks like you forgot stomp too.

The Blood knight comparison doesn't tell us anything, as either version of treekin gets utterly spanked.

A comparison of old TK and new TK vs silverhelms would have been far more relevant. By my estimation, it leaves old TK losing only narrowly, New tk lose by 1 or two more, but are likely to be steadfast.

MI doesnt stomp CAV.

[frogboy]

before 6 treekins costed 390 points. Now you can almost get 9 treekins for the same amount.

I did some maths on this.

5 Blood knights charge 6 of the old treekins.

7*3+1 Attacks = 22 Attacks.

22*0,66=14,52 wounds --> no As --> 0,66*14,52 --> 9,6 wounds --> 3 treekins dead

22*0,66=14,52 wounds --> no As --> 0,83*14,52 --> 12 wounds --> 4 treekins dead

May want to double check those numbers. They haven't lost any survivability, just a pip of strength.

Whats wrong with the numbers?
BK have ws5, they hit on 3+. There is no AS so i only removed wounds for ward saves.

[iampetty]

There's really not much to discuss that hasn't already been said. There are two responses to the new Treekin; "Wow, they suck now" and "Dude, I can take SO many."

Personally, I don't think I will be using Treekin nearly as much as I used to. Assuming that Eternal Guard keep their 2 attacks in the front rank, and that the Asrai Spear is a unit thing, you can get the same number of attacks at a higher WS, with ASF (so likely with rerolls), and the same penalty to enemy armor save with a unit of 6 wide Eternal Guard.

They just seem like anvil units now, rather than all around great elite units.

[frogboy]

Mmm there's not much to discuss but you are discussing it and have expressed an opinion, others also may want to carry on and discuss it...

[iampetty]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply this thread was pointless. I was trying to say that a) until the entire armybook comes out, we're still just speculating, and b) I think that "They're not as good as they used to be" and "They're cheaper so you can take more" are really the only two possible arguments that can be made at this time.

[frogboy]

Just admit it, you think it's pointless



Well I don't know what everyone wants, I do understand what your saying though but other people will have things to discuss perhaps compare Strength 4 treekin and math hammer some goblins or minotaurs or whatever ?

Don't expect a Christmas card now

Only joking

[albertoalter]

before 6 treekins costed 390 points. Now you can almost get 9 treekins for the same amount.

I did some maths on this.

5 Blood knights charge 6 of the old treekins.

7*3+1 Attacks = 22 Attacks.

22*0,66=14,52 wounds --> no As --> 0,66*14,52 --> 9,6 wounds --> 3 treekins dead

22*0,66=14,52 wounds --> no As --> 0,83*14,52 --> 12 wounds --> 4 treekins dead

Whats wrong with the numbers?
BK have ws5, they hit on 3+. There is no AS so i only removed wounds for ward saves.

First, why 5 BK have 22 attacks ? Sholud be "only" 16.
Furthermore, an attack have to Hit and Wound, you just assumed they wound automatically (22*0,66=14,52 wounds) instead of:

22*0,66 = 14,52 hit -> 14,52*0,83 = 12 wound(before Ward) -> 12*0,66 = 7,98. So only two tree kin is dead.

I also agree, a confront between Treekin and BK is useless.
Hoping for a easy way to boost them to S5 again...

[ivrg]

hmm, yes you are right. i saw my mistake now. Strange. But im a little tired today.

[iampetty]

Ok. How about Treekin vs. White Lions

Old:
6 Treekin at 65 pts a model = 390
30 White Lions at 13 pts a model = 390

Assuming maximum number of attacks, White Lions would go first with 25 attacks (If they're 8 wide. 3 ranks of 8 attacks, plus one for champion). Hit on 3s (2/3s), Wound on 3s (2/3s), ignore armor saves, and give them a 5+ ward save.

25 * .6 = 15 hits * .6 = 9 wounds * .6 = 6 wounds. 2 Treekin dead, and not getting to fight.

That leaves 4 Treekin with 3 attacks each, hitting on 4s (1/2), wounding on 2s (5/6), giving no save, and 3 stomp attacks.

12 * .5 = 6 hits *.83 = 5 wounds + 3 * .83 for stomps = 7.5 White Lions dead.

Combat Res: White Lions caused 6 wounds, have a rank bonus of 1, most likely will have a standard, which is a total of 8. Treekin caused 7.5 wounds, so depending on who charged, and the plus or minus of their rolls, they would tie.

New:
9 Treekin at 45 points a model = 405
Same number of White Lions.

White Lion's attacks won't change, but the Treekin's save got worse. So 9 wounds * .83 = 7.5 wounds. 2 Treekin dead, and one extra wound.

That leaves 7 Treekin, and 6 able to fight, but they're now wounding on 3s (2/3), and giving them a 6+ save.

18 * .5 = 9 hits * .6 = 5.5 wounds + 3 * .6 for stomps = 7.3 wounds * .83 = 6 white lions dead.

Combat Res: White Lions caused 7.5 wounds, have a rank bonus of 2, most likely will have a standard, which is a total of 10.5. Treekin caused 6 wounds, and have a rank bonus of 1.

Analysis: New Treekin perform worse, all other things equal.

[Coyle_Ravane]

It's not just about better or worse. Their role has changed.

I rarely took them before, but now I may just sneak in a small unit or two.

While they aren't as good as before, I think their point cost more accurately reflects their ability than it did before.

Crucially, it means you can field a unit for well under 200pts, whereas before I felt that if you took them, you kind of had to build your list around them.

They are no longer a hammer, but they still make a good anvil, potentially a better one,

Also, has anyone considered the possibility of an 18 strong Tree-horde? As far as I can tell, getting all 3 attacks when making supporting attacks will apply to the 3rd rank of a horde, so 55 attacks with a champion......

[Gurthaur]

I have also run some numbers of treekin units getting charged by equaly costed cavallery units.
I´ll just post the outcome, since i am lazy but i can post the entire thing if need be.

1. Encounter: 16 Silverhelmets, shields, full command:

6 Old Treekin: Tie and lose Combat by 1 thanks to the Silverhelmets musician.
9 New Treekin: Lose combat by 1.

2. Encounter: 15 Imperial Knights of the inner circle, lances, full command.

6 Old Treekin: Lose Combat by 4. (Thanks to the horses, otherwise by 3)
9 New Treekin: LOse Combat by 5.

3. Encounter: 12 Black Knights, Full command, banner of the barrows.

6 Old Treekin: Lose Combat by 2.
9 New Treekin: Lose Combat by 2 but are steadfast.

4. Encounter: 8 Bloodknights + Standardbearer.

6 Old Treekin: Lose by 7.
9 New Treekin: Lose by 9 but are steadfast.

Note that these numbers are just the mathematical intersection. They do by no means represent actual gameplay, like for example that i am virtually unable to roll 6´s for saves.
But i would say the outcome is clear and to be expected. While the old Treekin outperform the new ones in combat, the new ones stand a much better chance to hold their ground against smaller elite Units thanks to the possibility of being steadfast. At least when facing cavallry.

[JAMOB]

The new ones make better anvils because they are cheaper but still (almost) as resiliant (ws4 vs ws5 is a bit meh), so you can take 3 for 135 rather than 195 and have it be just as good at surviving as it used to be against most enemies. That's five glade guard (with old prices) of difference, which is pretty significant. So yeah, they're worse, but they might be better point for point which is the important thing. I think it depends heavily on how good those new woodsmen are, and how eternal guard have changed.

[Drstrangelove]

I think what I'm starting to see is that treekin are no longer are beatstick to hit infantry blocks with, esp if those blocks are T4 (Orcs, Gor, Warriors, Saurus). Have to get treemen (or possibly or own revamped infantry with ASF) to take these on.

Where treekin are going to help is against (as someone said) the smaller elite units that rely on ploughing through things that lack steadfast (mainly knights, which is a big deal as these used to be terrible for us not only because we couldn't kill them but because of the sheer volume of units they could kill in a given time frame by breaking our small units on the charge). They are going to lose combat, but it won't matter as they will likely be steadfast. Then things begin to look decidedly worse for the enemy in subsequent rounds, as they lose penalties for lances, we countercharge with our ASF elves, etc.

I only have 8 treekin, but if someone lent me 10 more I'd LOVE to have a go at fielding a horde. Their price now makes them the only MI unit in the game that it is affordable to hoard bar trolls and ogre bulls.

[USG_Ishimura]

Try 8 treekin with 4 wide, they will normally attack everybody. I think they will probably lose steadfast, but there is 6 more attacks and 1 more stomp vs infantry.

And OFC, treekin vs white lions (aka give me a tree to make wood) is a bad business.

[albertoalter]

While they aren't as good as before, I think their point cost more accurately reflects their ability than it did before.

Perfect. 65 points were too much, and a lot of people loosed because they thought Treekin could do everything...

[Luminith]

I think a big point we need to consider is that tree kin have a much higher chance of getting buffed. Speed of light, hand of glory (or whatever it's called), time warp, that fire one that gives +1 to hit (however rediculous that may seem), mind razor. Not to mention debuffs to the enemy with miasma, withering, soul blight etc.. am I the only one looking at taking 2 lv 1 shadow spellsingers? Miasma is unreal for us! Show down the units movement while I shoot them down, lower their WS when they get near the tree kin.

You might argue that I'd be relying on magic. Well, I'm a wood elf player, I've been relying on magic since the beginning of 8th

[overtninja]

Agreed. The potential to debuff the everliving crap out of other units with BRB lores or even Dark magic, as well as buff our own units with High magic, means that the internal balance of our book has to change to reflect that option.

Treekin are no longer the really expensive super monster they used to be, but they also won't be so expensive that losing two to a cannonball is physically painful any more. You can also field them in larger quantities, or even get two blocks of them with decent numbers to threaten a wider area, which is what I'll likely do. We'll also have more than one infantry block with steadfast as a real option it seems, so that's going to help us out as well, as Treekin won't be our primary anvil (Treemen, even though they are amazing units, are unreliable because of the giant bullseye painted on their bodies and the ease at which they can be artillery'd off the field).

If possible, I'd get them in the flank, because even at str 4 they can still beat the crap out of a lot of things, and from the side they aren't going to take enough attacks back to be removed.

I think they are still a solid choice, and have gotten potentially better on the table because we'll be able to properly support them with other units other than dryads.

[JazzMan]

They were always much to pricey for my tastes as I typically run lots of low cost units and if I was going to fork out the points for a decent unit I would probably prefer a treeman, just so much more mobile and efficient. At 45p a pop I can see a minimum size unit held back in a defensive role to protect my archers being useful. 3 of them will still be able to see off anything that's not a dedicated combat block or large monster.

[Soltari]

New TK are better... for GW at least You can have more units with TK now or more TK for the same ponits. Pretty smart.

The new TK seem to me quite similar to Crypt Horrors, what do you think? Which unit is better?

[CauCaSus]

I'm suddenly happier that I bought nine raging heroes "treekin"
Also, in the page from the digital version preview, the box with the text explaining the rules for forest spirit could eqsily hide new rules for treekin. Like hatred or a shooting attack (just speculating here).

[sentinalofthewoods]

You might argue that I'd be relying on magic. Well, I'm a wood elf player, I've been relying on magic since the beginning of 8th

if you are relying on magic you are playing the game wrong. unless your a tomb king player