Eternal guards, how many?

[Ramesesis]

I got the new book in may last year but then the divorce hit me and the minis got put away. Now I am creeping back to it and so much have happened.

Yesterday I was finished with getting a 20 strong unit of EG assembled as a bodyguard for my character Raimie. I have 20 Black tree elves in a different style that I though would be good as colourguard for my BSB.

Can you build a reasonably working army around this? My friend play standard 8th ed. No End Times stuff.

[Mollesvinet]

It depends on the size of the game. I would use around 20 at games around 1500-2000 points and 25 or more in games above that.

I have 20 of the old wood elves spearmen, back when they were called glade guard. It is easy enough to make 5 extra from unit fillers though.

[NonnoSte]

If you have a couple of treekin for example, you could use them to take the place of 8 elves, maybe adding some spears or shields leaning against them.

As they're now, treekin struggle to find a proper place in WE armies.

[Aezeal]

I like a nice round 0 in my army.

[Millingskink]

I know the feeling, it's a shame I have 50 of the old metals which are awesome models.

I had moderate success with units of 10-18 and a champ.

Conga dancing in the woods bought me time in an MSU build, any sizeable number just got too expensive for how much return they provided,

[Mollesvinet]

While it might not be optimal, you can definitely make a list work with eternal guard.

You do have to build the list around it though, as they require help from magic and/or characters to do much good.

[Millingskink]

I never could get it to work reliably, not to say it can't be done.

You can build a list around any unit if you're hoping to 6dice Mindrazor or some other equivalent, the only thing they really bring unique to the list is innate stubborn in the woods.

If you were going to make a big brick, and hope to buff them with magic, why not just do the same thing with archers? Then your big brick brings something to the table other than stubborn.

It's a really bad character flaw of the book that almost everything requires magic support outside of Wild Riders, and if you're going to need magic to get the job done, why not get something that shoots AND smashes face with magic.

[Mollesvinet]

WS5 is really nice defensively, especially combined with a -1 to hit spell. Suddenly most enemies are hitting you on 5's or even 6's. As mentioned, stubborn is great as well.

My latest 3 battle reports are from a 1 day event where I came 2nd out of 10 with eternal guard. Feel free to check it out as inspiration.

[Phil Rossiter]

Stubborn is big generally because you can rely on the unit to hold and not allow a breakthrough. Sure, you have to watch for the enemy simply killing the whole unit but you know you'll usually have something left to buff or to charge a friendly unit in support of.

As usual, I agree with Thomas. Ideally I'd run 25 but 21 fits nicely in Core alongside 2 x 10 archers and I don't want to drop anything else.

[Millingskink]

You did really well obviously, and it's hard to tell without actually knowing more details about the games, but it seems less about the eternal guard and more about the buffs / character screen in the first rank.

You could wrap those characters with just about any unit and it would perform well, with the real kicker being the hard to hit / good save (every other turn) dancers, and savage beasts.

[Mollesvinet]

You can read the reports yourself.

Stubborn saved them several times, as I take a charge and won't kick ass before my own turn. And WS5 saved dozens as well. I don't even take shields on them, if the enemy hit they will kill one in my philosophy. So WS5 + the negative hit spells. So true, they did well mainly because of buffs and the characters. But then again, that is how you utilize them and write the list around them.

With 4 ranks in a forest they do put out 20 attacks, which can be useful.

Again, I am not saying they are the best in the world but I dislike the tendency of automatically writing things out of the game. (though I must admit I have done so with dryads in this edition and treekin already in the previous one).

EDIT: I am all ears for suggestions how to make dryads and treekin work though!

[Millingskink]

I read the reports actually but sometimes there are minor things that aren't covered which can be pretty critical to getting the whole story. I noticed a good majority of the time they were fighting near the wood or in the wood, which has sparked me to revisit wardancers in a different list, as they would still retain the stubborn.

[Billthesurly]

It seems like the only time I ever use EG is in our huge Storm of Magic games - where I bring 40 of them with a lvl 4 Weaver and the Moonstone. 40 EG being airlifted in behind enemy lines can be pretty damned impressive. I REALLY like Mollesvinet's trick of placing a couple of Shadowdancers in there with a good ole Beastweaver to buff the whole lot. Apparently, Shadowdancers with Wissan's and a maxed out Savage Beast of Horros up and running is quite impressive.

[Ramesesis]

Any opinion on my idea of using two 20 strong unit in tandem, supported with a tree man and a BSB in one unit and the Glade lord in the other.

[Ramesesis]

As a matter of fact I have three treekins out of a job. But as unit filler they would flest out my Amaranthine Guard well enough!

[Stygian]

I'm personally considering 28+ and then bsb and shadowdancer. I'm actually in the process of building them atm and I'm stuck between them and wildwood rangers so I need some convincing.

EG don't really cost me anything being in core and are stubborn making them a great bunker and decent at fighting other core units, but thats about where it ends. On the bright side they don't alter list composition much and probably even help it, compared to say.. just more archers/GRs.

Otoh WWRs are ItP, throw out much better damage especially against fear/terror and at 30 strong I'm not certain stubborn matters that much outside of woods. I'd take WWRs in a heartbeat if they were core. Buut they're not and thats the crux of the matter.

[Phil Rossiter]

For the 20, 20, Treeman idea, it'll be solid but it needs some extra killing power IMHO. Whether through magic or Wild Riders, say.

Eternal Guard are not really brought for their ability to kill things, unless you build for serious buffing. It's about Stubborn Core, either as a base for killy characters or to hold ground and provide ranks in support of other combat units.

ITP is nice but not essential when you're Ld 9 with a re-roll. Against some things Rangers are great, Demigryphs for example. Against elves though, not so much. The problem is they are built to go forwards and I feel Wood Elves need to stay more flexible than that. Steadfast helps but it's nowhere near as reliable as Stubborn. EG are much better at holding.

But of course it depends what's in the rest of the army. You could simply stick Crown of Command in the Rangers but that probably means a fighting lord. I'd imagine a strong Wild Rider presence would be advisable.

[Stygian]

If only Geedub had left the rhymers harp alone! That made for excellent EG builds.

[Billthesurly]

It seems to me from looking around that the 20 or 25 elf EG block is still limited in it's usefulness. It is still a pretty weak unit on it's own and has to be buffed with the presence of characters and strong magic to be a main force unit that is capable of taking on most all comers.

It is my belief that this was the intention of the designers, bless their little black hearts. Wood Elves are not supposed to be able to go out and muscle up to other peoples best and toughest and smack them down in straight up combat. Who are we? We're tree-hugging Elves! We are never big and bad assed! We win by being deadly shots and quick and nimble and coming at people from all angles. We shoot 'em up and then wait for a weak spot. BUT! we can create a kick ass unit through the use of characters, items and magic. Hey it's the Elven way! And when they are overlooked that makes it all the more delicious.

I think that the EG in their current incarnation is perfect for the Wood Elven army. They don't look like a whole lot on the surface but don't ever take them for granted. And I think that's just the way it ought to be.

[Ramesesis]

Plan is to put Glade Lord Raimie with the EG, either packning Ogre blade or Daiths reaper. They are his bodyguards after all.

[Phil Rossiter]

Stubborn Core is rare in Warhammer. It's this flexibility, where we can make of it what we will, that justifies EG IMHO.

I recently won a critical combat (and the game) by throwing my EG's ranks in alongside a more killy unit to break Steadfast. Say the dice had gone wrong, I'd lost the combat and my opponent had the same ranks as me. Likely both units would have fled, maybe getting run down. Except that the EG would have held on Stubborn, saving the other unit.

[Polycotton]

I've been running a unit of 30. I find Eternal Guard a really fun unit. They give your opponent something to get into combat with and give you the fun of making some break tests that you need to pass. They are a great sticking unit and can put out some damage in a wood. I almost always put a Branchwraith in the unit, it makes them immune to psychology, cause fear, and they might get a Moonblood off or one of the better defensive Life Spells. The Branchwraith can also be used to redirect or issue a challenge to save some elves and she can take down small skirmishing units on her own.
Keep in mind I play fairly fun lists at the moment, as avoidance got boring fast for all involved in the game.

[Mollesvinet]

Some interesting reasons to put add a branchwraith to the mix. Just want to point out that the unit only becomes immune to psychology if the majority of the unit has the rule.

[Phil Rossiter]

What Thomas said.

I've run the Branchwraith as EG support and she was great, spot on Polycotton. Just can't afford her anymore now I've got three other wizards in the army!

[henrypmiller]

30 is a strong number, or 2x15.

I have been running around 25 in tournaments with some success. Sometimes I shave them down to 22/23/21 and you would be surprised how much loosing those few extra bodies makes a difference. 30 is for me the better choice if you can fit them in.