Quiting Warhammer

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Quiting Warhammer

Postby Jamesaet3 » 26 Mar 2015, 04:53

Well it has finally happened. After ten years of playing warhammer, and a few more collecting, I have finally decided to stop playing, for a long long time. The decision came when I went to a tournanment in Raleigh last year. I thought it was going to be a fun event and a good challenge. It was neither. Every army brought the same list, chaos same, wood elves same, high elves same, ogre kingdoms same. Not one army was different from the other. All the storm of magic creatures were the same. When I saw this I realized that uniqueness and fun were gone, replaced with winning lists. Whatever was the meta, it was brought.

I remember when warhammer used to be a challenge. Magic wasn't as predominant as it is now. Movement was vital to your tactics, and terrain could make the weakest army strong and crumble the mightiest chaos horde.

Warhammer used to be a thinking mans game. You had to seriously look at the board and the pieces that were on it before you started or you could really ruin your chances of winning. I remember when two hills a forest and a building were too much terrain, now it doesn't matter what you put on the board, everyone and there mother can walk, see, and fight in with no penalties.

You also couldn't measure either, so you had to constantly remember how far you and your opponent moved, and if you guessed wrong you couldn't shoot or cast magic, you were screwed. There was also no, ten inches from the back of the base either.

There is no more thinking in this game anymore, you can measure everything and anything before coming up with your final answer, terrain doesn't do anything except look pretty on the table, a lot of times I've considered just removing the pieces because, lets face it, it does nothing!

Warhammer fantasy used to be a chess game. Even if your opponent brought a stronger list than you, if you used the terrain and your ability to eye gauge distance, you could win. Any army could win if placed correctly.
The fun and strategy is gone in warhammer, bring a list that wins or you will be slaughtered no matter what.

If you want this commander to play warhammer again, there are only a few things you have to do:
1. Bring back terrain that matters!
2. No more measuring and random charge distances
3. Bring back the fun, fanatics that wreak havoc on everyone once they are released. orcs and goblins used to have different effects for animosity. Waywatchers used to be able to set traps in the forest, and dryads used to shapeshift.

It won't take much to make the game a true strategy game again, like it used to be.

Until that happens, I'm not going to paint, assemble, or play warhammer fantasy.

Sorry if you don't like this, but I'm tired of the ruleset.
Let them shoot first, we'll shoot best.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Kakapo42 » 26 Mar 2015, 09:08

I am very saddened to see that you are so unhappy with the current ruleset. I remember having very similar feelings when the latest Wood Elf book was released, and again with the advent of the ET series.

However, something I learnt from both of those events is that you're not forced to use whatever latest rules GW churns out. When the 8th edition Wood Elf book came out and I felt very unhappy with it, I simply went back to using the previous book, and never looked back (or rather forward as the case may be :p ). When the ET series was released, I decided to ignore the background in it, and even came up with my own storyline that cancelled the events of the ET series out in my background (which I'm still gauging the level of interest in posting online in my hobby thread, as a bit of shameless self-advertising). If those older editions are what you enjoy playing with the most, then it seems to me like an ideal solution is to just keep playing those. It's your hobby, you have the power in it - not GW, not the tournament community, YOU. So enjoy it how YOU want to, not how other people want you too (well, within reason - obviously you'll want things to be as enjoyable for your opponents/gaming group as they are for you, but you get the idea).

Incidentally, I really like the addition of pre-measuring, partially because I don't have particularly good depth-perception and the memory of an amnesiac goldfish so I get the feeling that no pre-measuring might put me at an unfair disadvantage, but mostly because I instinctively think that pre-measuring is in effect even if it isn't (I don't know why - I guess it just feels more right to me) so I tend to start pre-measuring anyway without thinking about it. I'm not sure I'd say terrain is completely meaningless either - it does still impact line of sight and certain terrain items to break steadfast, which is an important part of combat in 8th - but I do agree that it's influence has been greatly reduced. There are a few parts of 8th I like however (specifically the aforementioned pre-measuring, units acting in two ranks and having a lore of life spell that can actually heal common troops), but I also definitely like a lot of parts about 6th and 7th edition (especially all the faction-unique magic items - so delightfully characterful). I've often wondered about how it could be to combine the two, either by taking the parts I like about 8th edition and grafting them onto 6th edition, or modifying the things I like about 6th edition to 8th (like I'm already doing with the old siege rules).

But I digress. I am sad to read about your plight, but I would suggest you reconsider abandoning Warhammer entirely. If you don't like something about it, change it so you do. :nod:
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Mollesvinet » 26 Mar 2015, 14:54

If you want to see different lists, there are a few things you can do. Either make sure to join games with more scenarios or join events with heavier composition. Swedish comp for example changes the standard lists a lot. It would be interesting if GW took inspiration from these kind of things, and added similar systems in the rulebook to play by for diversity of the game.


I am a big fan of premeassuring, especially as we don't use inches in my country. I certainly don't think it removes the thinking part of the game: Before you had to consider if the distance was 10 inches, and if it was 10½ you failed and may lose the game. Now instead you have to consider odds at all times. Yes, random charge distance can screw you up but at least you are aware of the odds and can try to stack odds to avoid failing. Like multiple charges, setting up favorable charges with redirectors and so on.

The cannon though, really agree with you here. That thing has to change. Anyway, it is your decision and I hope you will find something else to enjoy.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Zanthorn Mist Walker » 26 Mar 2015, 15:22

I am also a veteran of around 15 years of war gaming, and someone who also left the game and only recently returned to fantasy. I can definitely relate brother.

I moved on from fantasy to 40k for a few years but now with the latest wood elf book (all new books to me) I'm back and I have to say the game is at an amazing place from a fresh perspective. It was like hitting the reset button.
What really got into our gaming was partially the internet and the quest for power/optimization that is pervasive there.. but the players need to take responsibility too. Stepping back for awhile caused us to lose all that hype (and some skill I'm sure!).
I was playing a full elf no magic army through much of 6th all of 7th and the onset of 8th when I left. My win rate was fairly high even against the most broken books I can remember (former DE, and VC with no magic dice limit) and even against treemonic legions. But I felt like it was an uphill battle and GW had abandoned my army (lol 'cougar lost it turned in his wings'). Not so. It was more the mentality of the players, including me.

Anyway I am so thankful I did not sell off my army and I would recommend the same to you, at the least.

Another idea, if possible for you, would be to start a veterans club which is basically what my main group consists of. Long time gamers who make collective decisions using common sense, with GW as simply a reference. Considering that faq support for half the armies may well have ceased to exist with ET groups like ours might be the way of the future. Make your own scenarios, your own restrictions/comps/what-have-you, adjust pts limits etc and just aim to enjoy the game man. If your scene is stale drop it like a bad habit. I frequently fly out of state to game because thats where the fun is.

I hope this works out for you.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby frogboy » 26 Mar 2015, 16:37

Come and play blood bowl instead :D :thumbsup:
Its been too long since we burned a heretic, witch hunt anyone !??

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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Git » 26 Mar 2015, 17:35

I don't feel the same at all. With pre-measuring everything is more like chess, not less. In competitive chess there are "correct" responses to your opponents opening game, just like our list building has to fit our metagame. People wanting to maximize their chances in tournaments will apply however the rules are written.
Terrain has great effects if used as in the rulebook. If your meta use little terrain it's not a problem with the rules.
Some of the fun stuff you mention still exist. Fanatics, manglers, skaven crazyness. The one thing the rules could change is that they are better so more people will choose them in competitive lists. However randomness is rarely very good for having a battle plan.

Think about this: Maybe it's not the game that has changed, but you yourself. I certainly have changed my thinking about warhammer the last 17 years.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Slobber » 26 Mar 2015, 19:34

I'll reiterate what I said last time. ( viewtopic.php?f=45&t=28165&p=343729#p343729 )
Competive Warhammer is a very different game. Most of the players you played at Grail Quest were playing to win. I know I was. You happen to live in a region that is very competitive. Honestly if you don't have fun playing then quitting is the right call. This is game, it's for fun. If you didn't care for the tournament scene that's okay. It's okay to just play friendly games with people you know. GW has often stated that this is a beer and pretzels game.
One of your biggest issues with that scene was the similarity of the lists you saw, sadly that's a symptom of the internet age. People will seek outside advice on list building and with many pople min/maxing list a list made only of the most competitive choices falls out. Honestly though I felt like the comp actually helped in that regard. Now addressing your wish list. 1) Terrain matters, I think it's better with simple LoS but I definitely found advantage in at least half of my games with terrain. Without LoS blocking terrain I'd have not been able to run a unicorn spell weaver.
2) Back in the good old bad old days a canny player could ”cheat” by measuring range for missile fire or a spell and use that knowledge to know charge distances on their next turn. I think the current system is more honest and direct, and leads to a better friendlier game. But this is just my take on it, you can disagree.
3) These things you mentioned, to me actually took away from the strategy of the game, letting random effects cost you a game wasn't that fun to me, but hey we're all playing our own games. Odds are can find an old hammer group near you and play whatever system you like.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Slobber » 26 Mar 2015, 19:45

Jamesaet3 wrote:Every army brought the same list, chaos same, wood elves same, high elves same, ogre kingdoms same. Not one army was different from the other. All the storm of magic creatures were the same. When I saw this I realized that uniqueness and fun were gone, replaced with winning lists. Whatever was the meta, it was brought.


I really have to disagree with you on this, my memory isn't perfect, but if I rember correctly there where 5 different wood elf lists yours and mine included. Much of the core was the same across the lists it primarily was glade guard, with the exception of jacob Brandon who ran glade riders. I had 2 units if warhawk riders and my general was a lvl 4 on a unicorn. Gabe thorn ran a bunch of war dancers with the acorn and moonstone. Jacob B had a horde of rangers. Landon had a treeman ancient as his general. Their also was a lot of variety in the lists I faced. I think you got stuck playing the same ogre list over and over and this is tainting your memory.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Jamesaet3 » 26 Mar 2015, 23:50

The bottom line my fellow asrai is that the game isn't fun for me anymore, and that's why I quit. I would love to play some house rules, but that takes someone who is willing, and of course the necessary stuff at your house or at a store.
For the meantime though, I have other things to fill my fantasy craving, such as HEMA steel longsword fighting. I may return, but not anytime soon.

Good luck to the rest of you though!
Let them shoot first, we'll shoot best.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Beithir Seun » 27 Mar 2015, 00:44

It's always sad to see someone leave the hobby, for whatever reason. At the end of the day, you've got to make the decision that's best for you and if the game's no fun any more then you're probably making the right one. The one piece of advice I would give you, as Zanthorn said, is to keep hold of your figures if you can. There have been too many people who've quit and thrown all their toys out, only to regret it a couple of years later.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Slobber » 27 Mar 2015, 01:01

Best of luck to you with the long sword! And as everyone's saying tuck those old treemen away they will become nigh impossible to replace.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Jamesaet3 » 27 Mar 2015, 13:51

I will NOT be getting rid of my toys, I've (we) spent way to much money to do that.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Mollesvinet » 27 Mar 2015, 16:37

Not just money, but also time and affection. Best of luck!
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Vase » 17 Apr 2015, 17:22

I almost decided to quit. Admittedly, I'm don't game as much as you because I don't go to tournaments or gaming stores. I have always only played with a just a small group of good friends. When the new Wood Elf book came out I was kinda making a return after going through grad school and moving away from friends. I had never tried Wood Elves in the past so I was stoked to get back in and have some fun. Then the End Times stuff started happening and I have to say I was totally turned off. I yearned for the games I played with my buddies in 5th and 6th, and I want the armies to stay the way they are/were. I have always loved Brets and with the new rumors I was just not interested in keeping up with the game anymore at all.

To be totally honest, the End Times stuff sounds really stupid to me and I got really sick of the GW shenanigans. I was ready to quit for good. So about 4-5 months ago I tucked away my books and the few models I had just purchased and painted and looked at other games. After making forays into Warmachine, 40K, X-Wing, a couple CCGs, and some board games, I realized that I just want Warhammer. And that's when I decided I don't care what GW does anymore, I'm going to make the game into what I want. I may not play a whole lot, but at this stage of life that's to be expected anyway. I'm planning on enjoying the hobby and doing other things, like creating narrative and scenarios, etc. when I can't be playing. And I'm going to do what was discussed earlier and combine rules from the last 3 editions to get the flavor and balance the way I want it. I'm re-energized and excited about Warhammer again. Huzzah for house-ruled Oldhammer :)

Best of luck to you finding your way though. Cheers.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Aezeal » 17 Apr 2015, 17:43

Well good for you doing what you want is important and having fun also!

Having said that: I think that if you just see end times as a fluffy (somewhat unbalanced) campaign - which it is - you can just ignore it and not spend cash on it.
9th will probably be harder to ignore BUT I think the rules will not change too much (hopefully magic a bit like end times though..) and I think that if they really go 6 factions it will be easier to balance too. Houserules everyone likes are nice.. but you could Always try 9th.. even without investing in the expensive GW books... you can borrow them... if needed from the internet.

I´m still betting 9th will be the best edition warhammer will have.. like 8th was the best till now.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby razorfate » 17 Apr 2015, 18:31

In our gaming group we use 8th ed.rules without 50% lords. The games are balanced and fun. I agree that 8th isa fun edition.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Aezeal » 17 Apr 2015, 18:39

Ow I don't think the 50% rules changes balance much really you need to bring some other stuff to deal with it that is true but it's not that nasty, often 300 points with 3 wounds is still more easily killed than 300 points with 20 wounds.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby razorfate » 17 Apr 2015, 18:49

It is 625 pts not 300. Double blender lord f.e.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby sunstrider » 11 Jun 2015, 17:50

I partly disagree with your assessment. This is still a thinking person's game. Most of my wins are just because I out thought the opponent in the deployment and movement phases. Regardless of what units you use and what the rules are, movement has remained largely unchanged throughout all the editions I've been playing (from 6th onward). It's always been the same formula for me: put your units in a favorable position and let your dice decide the rest for you.

That being said, the ability to premeasure literally everything allows more room for error, so less seasoned battle commanders can be on a more even level with veteran commanders in that respect. But all in all I'm glad you can premeasure stuff now, I remember all those arguments I'd have with people over premeasuring, or looking like they were premeasuring or something. It really didn't matter anyways, so I'm glad I don't have to have those conversations with my opponents anymore.

It just sounds like you are playing with the wrong people, so I'd recommend taking a break from the game for awhile, maybe paint in the meantime and try to find a gaming group with the same aims as yours.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Sunshine coconut » 18 Jun 2015, 02:50

well don't give up just yet! Can I encourage you to give it 8 more months! 9th ed is just around the corner and rumours are that we are getting a very new game. Keep an eye out. You might find things shaken up enough to find your enjoyment again. If it's still not what you like, then would be the best time to exit.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby waywatcher*kenobi » 21 Jul 2015, 00:31

i started playing in 2004 and we couldn't measure back then. I got REALLY good at throwing that magic acorn on the money to destroy that nasty steamtank :) I agree that measuring should go back to the way it was...but honestly I still use terrain to my advantage and don't powergame. I do cheesy things like bringing 100 GG and yes I lose but I still have fun with it.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Nicholas Nitro » 21 Jul 2015, 00:53

100 Glade Guard isn't cheesy, it's ranged supremacy!
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Monkey » 21 Jul 2015, 16:53

Like a lot of people, I was very disappointed with Age of Sigmar. I gave it a try, but I just didn't like it. I'll still play 8th Edition, which I happen to think was the best edition Of Warhammer GW produced, but I expect as a discontinued game, this will become less and less as time goes on. It is a bit of wrench to consider leaving Warhammer behind, but at the same time, GW's ineptitude has encouraged me (and the people I regularly play against) to look at other systems. And you know what? There's all kinds of really good stuff out there. I've tried Avatars of Wars Warthrone game, and had an absolute blast, I'll be playing it again for sure. I really enjoyed trying Cutlass (Fantasy pirate skirmish game). I'm really looking forward to trying Dead Mans Hand (Old West Skirmish game) and my copy of Frostgrave (Fantasy skirmish game) is in the post.... :cool:

Don't be disheartened by GW's woeful offering. You still have all your models. Have a look around see what there is that appeals to you (there's plenty of stuff beyond the games I've listed above), and see if you can put your models to good use. For me it's a bit like being 13 again, I'm exploring all kinds of games using all kinds of weird mixes of models, and I'm having great fun doing it. :nod:
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby Coyle_Ravane » 01 Aug 2015, 19:20

I won't be getting rid of my army, I'm still in the middle of a rebuilding project and I love most of the current wood elf models, and I still have hopes that AoS will tank badly enough to force GW to bring back warhammer in a form recognisable to what I have played for the last 20 years.

I won't be playing AoS, baring some very unlikely evolution from what we've seen so far, but that doesn't stop me finding a group who still play 8th or looking for a different system I can use my army in.
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Re: Quiting Warhammer

Postby The Peacemaker » 06 Aug 2015, 00:06

Jamesaet3 wrote:Well it has finally happened. After ten years of playing warhammer, and a few more collecting, I have finally decided to stop playing, for a long long time. The decision came when I went to a tournanment in Raleigh last year. I thought it was going to be a fun event and a good challenge. It was neither. Every army brought the same list, chaos same, wood elves same, high elves same, ogre kingdoms same. Not one army was different from the other. All the storm of magic creatures were the same. When I saw this I realized that uniqueness and fun were gone, replaced with winning lists. Whatever was the meta, it was brought.

I remember when warhammer used to be a challenge. Magic wasn't as predominant as it is now. Movement was vital to your tactics, and terrain could make the weakest army strong and crumble the mightiest chaos horde.

Warhammer used to be a thinking mans game. You had to seriously look at the board and the pieces that were on it before you started or you could really ruin your chances of winning. I remember when two hills a forest and a building were too much terrain, now it doesn't matter what you put on the board, everyone and there mother can walk, see, and fight in with no penalties.

You also couldn't measure either, so you had to constantly remember how far you and your opponent moved, and if you guessed wrong you couldn't shoot or cast magic, you were screwed. There was also no, ten inches from the back of the base either.

There is no more thinking in this game anymore, you can measure everything and anything before coming up with your final answer, terrain doesn't do anything except look pretty on the table, a lot of times I've considered just removing the pieces because, lets face it, it does nothing!

Warhammer fantasy used to be a chess game. Even if your opponent brought a stronger list than you, if you used the terrain and your ability to eye gauge distance, you could win. Any army could win if placed correctly.
The fun and strategy is gone in warhammer, bring a list that wins or you will be slaughtered no matter what.

If you want this commander to play warhammer again, there are only a few things you have to do:
1. Bring back terrain that matters!
2. No more measuring and random charge distances
3. Bring back the fun, fanatics that wreak havoc on everyone once they are released. orcs and goblins used to have different effects for animosity. Waywatchers used to be able to set traps in the forest, and dryads used to shapeshift.

It won't take much to make the game a true strategy game again, like it used to be.

Until that happens, I'm not going to paint, assemble, or play warhammer fantasy.

Sorry if you don't like this, but I'm tired of the ruleset.



First, there is a strong community drive making 9th age to fix alot of annoying problems like 'exact same list' syndrome - thats what happens when one skews unit rules so much in order to sell a model.

Second, it doesn't sound like you play ALOT of warhammer. Or that you didn't play against anyone who works in any kind of trade job.
When I started warhammer gaming, the guess range and no premeasure thing was ok. It was fun at first simply because it was new. But got old like a shoots and ladders game. You only get so many playthroughs before a rulesset gets played out. Guessing games get played out very quickly.

Anyone who works in a trade can "guess" any 3 foot range and be accurate to within 1/4 inch. Once your at that point you might as well just pre-measure. Because if you play someone who can't guess as accurate as you it can really ruin the game. And guessing has no bearing on the feel of your army.
My troops are the most elite force in all the land but because I'm 14 years old and can't guess ranges my troops are just as bad. That is why its better to just convert guessing into dice. Bad troops roll more dice and pick the worst result, better troops pick the better result.

The whole point of being allowed to premeasure and then throw in something like random charges is that there is no "sure thing". There is a 90% chance your unit will make it into combat but what if it doesn't? ....that is what a general has to deal with. That is why generals exist!!! Because its never a sure thing and someone has to make quick decisions on an ever changing battlefield.


All this being said - there are people who want to play the preivous editions. Your post and view is not alone. 7th edition had an appeal and people still play it. Get on facebook and look for some groups. You can probably find a group of people who want to play an old edition or modified rules.
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