A magicless Army

[Syphilis]

So as the title suggests...has anyone made a Wood Elf army without magic that works?

What would this army look like?


My second question is that I'm toying with this idea for a 1500 - 2000 pnt game and I have the following:
2 treemen
3 warhawks
12 wild riders
about 30 glade guards/scouts or waywatchers
1 great stag rider
20 Dryads
6 treekin.
Some stand in lords/ heroes (were weavers but can be shadow dancers/ way stalkers...etc) and a BSB on steed.

Can I make this work (my initial thoughts are not too great)?

[Q10fanatic]

To me the question becomes, what do you get instead? If you are giving up something useful, you should be able to point to where those points have been spent in the army instead.

As an example, I have a friend that plays Dark Elves. He's trying a list without a lord mage but can now fit a kitted up dragon lord. This makes him even faster and more hard hitting than before.

For us, I'd think another unit of Wild Riders or maybe the Sisters on an eagle would be a good start.

[NonnoSte]

The only reason I see to go magicless is to have the double/triple Dragon.
And even there, I'd be tempted to add at least a L1 with a scroll or a unit of Sisters

[Coyle_Ravane]

If I were to try an army without magic I would generally go light in characters all-around, as our combat characters don't cut it. This way, the points could go on more units.

That said, I would probably still take at least 3 or 4 waystalkers, to help shut down enemy magic by killing their mages.

[NonnoSte]

I think no mages at all is something bearable just by Dwarves and brave Khorne players, because they have the means to counter opposing magic.

With no levels of magic you can be subject of MMs spam, combat buffs/debuffs, nuke spells with no way to block any of these.
I think Waystalkers are too unreliable in taking away mages.

With Fast Shots on average you need 24 shots to take down a T3 Lord level caster with a 4++, provided you are hitting on 4+ (sniper, long range, multiple shot, movement)
It's 3 turn worthy of 4 Waystalkers aiming at the same character.

[Coyle_Ravane]

With Fast Shots on average you need 24 shots to take down a T3 Lord level caster with a 4++, provided you are hitting on 4+ (sniper, long range, multiple shot, movement)
It's 3 turn worthy of 4 Waystalkers aiming at the same character.

I used to use 3 waystalkers, and I don't remember ever having them hit on 4+, it should generally be 3+, often 2+.

I found them very effective against T3 mages, it's the ogre butchers, daemon princes, armoured chaos sorcerers etc that they struggle with.

[Blackcat]

It is easier to do in lower point games. Once you get to around 1500 points and up it becomes almost essential to have some sort of magic defense. Elves have some of the best mages around and you are denying a whole phase by not having any magic. We have a +5 to cast if our caster is in a wood and you could give her the book of ashur and have a +6 to cast and dispel which is just brutal. I have played a couple of games where I didnt have any magic, one game particularly springs to mind, 1600 points versus high elves, watchtower was the scenario. I simply added more men (elves) to my units. Anyway by the end of the game I had my lord and single eternal guard holding the watch tower so luckily I won the game. If it had been any other scenario or if the game had lasted another turn I would have lost. He simply pounded the **** out of my army with magic missiles, yes I survived because of the extra men I bought by not having a mage but it was so close. If I had a mage I could have shut down his magic a lot more effectively and won the game with a lot more models on the table.

Definitely try it out though. It is a cool idea and if you can make it work then kudos to you. If it doesnt work just pop a mage into your army

With Fast Shots on average you need 24 shots to take down a T3 Lord level caster with a 4++, provided you are hitting on 4+ (sniper, long range, multiple shot, movement)
It's 3 turn worthy of 4 Waystalkers aiming at the same character.

I used to use 3 waystalkers, and I don't remember ever having them hit on 4+, it should generally be 3+, often 2+.

I found them very effective against T3 mages, it's the ogre butchers, daemon princes, armoured chaos sorcerers etc that they struggle with.

Well long range is -1, sniper shot is -1 and usually they will be in light cover of some sort so another -1. So it is up to the player to put the waystalker in an optimal position where you can only have the -1 for sniping.

[Syphilis]

What was your list black cat? I'm thinking a few waystalkers to take out enemy magic might be a start for me and build around that. Would it be cheating if I took a shadow dancer with 1 level of magic so he can get a Dispel scroll. Or is that an expensive option?

[Hachiman Taro]

You're probably saving 450+ odd pts by taking no mages, so can you buy something for 450 pts that does as much damage? Sisters on dragon is about 500 watch out for cannons!). 30 trueflight glade guard is 450. Would 30 trueflight shots do more damage than two mages? Could do...

Lack of dispel scroll / levels would be a problem. You might want to take something that can deal with magic by assasinating mages quick. Dragon / warhawks / waystalkers? There's a guy who does batreps on you tube who has taken double dragon no magic builds that have worked ok in tournaments I think..

[NonnoSte]

I'd also advice to take all the MR you can on your characters.
Sisters of the Thorn still look essential to me if you don't want to take "mages".

[nXken]

Just go for a tonne of waystalkers to snipe away your enemy's mages on turn 1

And make sure you get first turn, cuz else ur ... u know... screwed

[viggo3000]

Im going to a smal fun tournament today that uses comp. I will run a super fast mele list without magic. I will probably have greater comp than my oponents and that will give me the choice of deployment and +1 to start the game. That in combination with few units can give me +2 to start. Not a competative army if i face Death magic but super fun and fast.

Tuned up lord on a dragon.
Sisters on a dragon.
Bsb on elven steed with mr 3.

3x 10 trueflight GG.
15 dryads.
3x 5 poison scouts.
12 wildriders with eternal flame.
2x great eagles.

[razorfate]

Today with one purple sun spell i destroyed 18 strong ogre ironguts unit and 1 mournfang cavalary. That gave me a huge advantage and got my opponnent tabled 2 turns later. My spellweaver was riding elven steed and she can easily flanked the opponent's deathstar. The movement and spellcasting is a strength of woodelves and other than fun and campaign games the spellweavers shhould always be used if we hope to win

[Aezeal]

I think our army is not good enough in large games to go without magic. The lvl 6 spells are real game changers.

[Nicholas Nitro]

If you can get your opponent to agree to not use magic either, I'd say its a great idea.

[nXken]

How did it go? Quite curious

[Blackcat]

What was your list black cat? I'm thinking a few waystalkers to take out enemy magic might be a start for me and build around that. Would it be cheating if I took a shadow dancer with 1 level of magic so he can get a Dispel scroll. Or is that an expensive option?

Cheating... No not really but then you are spending quite a lot of points on a single model just to get a single dispel scroll. Drop him and just take more models. The entire idea behind the no magic list is that you replace magic with enough units to take out the enemy mages anyway and shut down their magic phase. You take some hits first turn in the magic phase then crush their wizards as best you can. Currently I am spending usually around 400pts on mages which could be quite a few extra models in units or new units.

My list for that particular game was something along the lines of:

HIghborn armour of silvered steel, talisman of preservation
BSB, Armour of destiny
30 Eternal guard
6 Treekin
2 x10 Glade guard true flight
and I think a couple units of glade riders.

Running a no magic list for me now is

Highborn, Armour of silvered steel, Dawnstone, Hail of Doom Arrow
BSB, Armour of destiny
30 Eternal Guard Full Command
3x 5 Wild riders with Shields
2x 5 Waywatchers

and then whatever else. You want to hit hard against warmachines and magic users (wild riders, way watchers) and then hopefully dominate the movement and pick your battles.

Warhawk riders and eagles are also awesome for taking out warmachines and mages.

[sunstrider]

I'd say it would be effective. Wood Elves have phenomenal cavalry and infantry in this book, so more of that is never a bad idea. If I were to completely eschew taking wizard characters of any kind, I'd take a dragon and a large unit of sisters of the thorn to support it. But if I were to build no magic at all, I'd probably use half the points I save to add some waystalkers to snipe opposing mages and the rest on extra bodies to shift the shooting and combat phases into my favor.

It's definitely possible though, 8th edition is the most balanced edition I've seen so far, and so as long as you play to the strengths of extra bodies and not depending on magic to win you other phases of the game, the dice will do the rest.

[Sceolan]

I just had a game with double dragon (Lord and sisters) and my only magic was two units of sisters of thorn. Double curse was surprisingly effective.. And they make great warmachine hunters with poison and the ward. U get two channels and level 2 magic defense as well..