What We Would Change Revisited

[Billthesurly]

A few years ago (March of 2012) I posted a thread on the board which asked the question: What Would We Change (in the old Wood Elf Book). It was an open question where everybody who cared to posted suggestions for changes to the old 7th ed book. We got a lot of suggestions. Then I came back and said - Ok if we had to pick five of them above all others what would we pick to change in our army book? Here are the results as they were then ranked first to last. So how did we do as compared to what we got in our new book? See below.

1) - Forest Spirit ward saves retain their effect against magic attacks.

We got this one but not quite as we would have wished it. Our ward saves are now indeed all purpose - but they are only a 6 instead of a 5 or 6. Did we make out better or worse? I don't think anyone foresaw the nerfing of the Forest Spirits. However my army now reminds me of the one I played when I first became involved in WFB back in the early '90s. It is interesting that this is the thing that griped our asses more than anything else in the old book. It was infuriating to see daemons getting their ward saves against magical attacks when our Forest Spirits did not.

2) - All Wood Elf longbows, foot and mounted, S 4 at short range.

Didn't get this one at all having lost the S4 shot at close range altogether. However, the new range of magic arrows I believe more than makes up for the loss. Indeed, the Moon and Starfire Shafts are even better than a +1 strength being outright +1 to wound. I haven't heard anyone carping about the Hagbanes or Trueflights either. I like to mix them up.

3) - Spellsingers may use lore of Life and Beasts in addition to lore of Athel Loren.

Got this wish in SPADES. No complaints on this front at all. Our magical Lore possibilities are legion. So the Treeman Ancient is limited to Life. Meh. Coulda been worse - could have been limited to the old Lore of Athel Loren. Bleah!

4) - Being their home, the Wood Elf army shall not suffer wounds or stupidity from the special effects of Mysterious Forests. (Shandrakor's Law)

The new book didn't even address this in the least. However, we are now able to at least CHOOSE the nature of our larger free wood which we can now place anywhere on our table half instead of just in our deployment zone. I call this one a win.

5) - Battle Standard Bearers may select mundane equipment and join Wild Rider and Eternal kindreds.

Well we got that one kinda sorta. They just up and did away with kindreds altogether. I miss the kindreds. It made the army that much fluffier.

6) - Wardancers given ability to disrupt or otherwise negate rank bonus.

We got this one. When that dance is used in concert with a hammer charge the results can be devastating. Particularly when used in conjunction with a charging block of Eternal Guard. (Hint: in allied games the ability is priceless.) However, we lost our +1 S on the charge. Oh well, GW giveth and GW taketh away. My opinion is that Wardancers are still glass hammers... but the hammer does not hit as hard as it used to.

Interesting to go back and revisit our wish list of yesteryear and see what we wanted then as opposed to what we have now in 8th edition.

[nXken]

I realy like what we got in the new book.

Magic was too restricted ==> solved... and how
Shooting was quite puny, unless in short range ==> issue addressed to great succes.
Restrictions on special characters ==> addressed

Those were my biggest issues in 7thEd WE.

What I would like to see changed in our next AB:

Re-institution of the forest spirits (give back the stolen S/T, ward is ok as it is imo)
Clear rulings on Sisters
The possibility to make a fighty/durable lord/hero
Banners you can actually use (come on... who used the banners we got now or in the past...)
Give the Hit and Run back to the WHR!

I am actually quite happy with what we got to be frank.

[NonnoSte]

2) - All Wood Elf longbows, foot and mounted, S 4 at short range.

Didn't get this one at all having lost the S4 shot at close range altogether. However, the new range of magic arrows I believe more than makes up for the loss. Indeed, the Moon and Starfire Shafts are even better than a +1 strength being outright +1 to wound. I haven't heard anyone carping about the Hagbanes or Trueflights either. I like to mix them up.

Don't forget AP on all the arrows.
This, at long range too, compensate the Strength reduction to some extent.
We can now shoot at Warriors of Chaos for example, without seeing all our arrows bouncing on their armour, even from 30".

[Phil Rossiter]

Universal AP is excellent, I agree. For example, forget about shooting 2+ knights with HE archers but WE's with Trueflight or Hagbane can make a real dent. New Waywatchers are a massive equaliser. Remember the old agony of 1+ armour spam? A shame about losing Asrai Archery but overall the shooting phase is better now.

We lost Spites and magic items took a nerf but this compares to improvements in the elves. Wild Riders are just ridiculous and Sisters are incredibly flexible. Warhawks, Eternal Guard, Scouts all got better. A shame about the Forest Spirits (old save was better IMHO) but I find my Treeman still does a job and Branchwraiths too.

Personally I was hoping for Life and Beasts with an improved WE Lore for the lord casters. Clearly what we got is stronger but not quite as fluffy IMHO. Fighting characters got better, there's little difference offensively with other elves. The problem is lack of mundane armour but TBH I feel Wards are more useful in the current meta generally. You can build a scary unit with Wards and a High mage for Protection Counters. The only issue is whether simply spamming archers and Fast Cav isn't better.

[Aezeal]

NXKEN: I personally think that there will be a combined armybook in 9th. I also think forest spirits will get the sack except for maybe the treeman (new gorgeous model... it will sell I think so it will stay ).

I would like to see spites back as magic items... like the demonic blessings WOC and DOC have.

Phil: the magic we have now is very fluffy.. for the new fluff

[Phil Rossiter]

Yeah, we can argue about the fluff but it fits what GW are writing these days.

But WE's for well over 20 years have been a Beasts\Life army (granted High Magic was in the mix back then). These Lores (and WE magic) gave a feel that was clearly not HE\DE. Now there is very little to differentiate a WE phase from a HE or DE one. Or those from each other TBH. I personally feel it's a shame that the Lores each of the elf books had that were unique to them, are now shared.

[Billthesurly]

The one thing I totally did not see coming, and apparently neither did anyone else, was getting ASF. We all thought that was going to be exclusive to High Elves. When the Dark Elves got it we knew it was only a matter of time. That one was a game-changer.

[Phil Rossiter]

I'm happy with that fluff-wise but not getting it would have been fine too.

Gameplay-wise the biggest impact is on Wild Riders IMHO. Though it is of course excellent on any other combat elves we bring.

[frogboy]

On the down side, I've not played a game of Warhammer since the new book came out...

On the plus side I'm now playing more Blood Bowl

That's right sports fans and I'm off to the Dungeon Bowl in Germany this month and im going to stomp on some Wood Elf teams with my Dwarfs, just like my good friend Gotrek Gurnisson said "the only thing I hate more than trees is Elves!"

In all fairness I never did play as much Warhammer as I ever wanted to, the good thing about the new book I thought was the total suprise and complete change to everything, it was in some ways much better than anyone could have wished for but in other ways it lost too much for me personally to want to throw away my old army and start again.

Next time I feel the urge to buy into a warhammer army I'll jump on the band wagon of something new and fresh which I've never played before, that way I can have no ghosts running around in the back of my mind screaming where's my strength/toughness/ward gone ? Then just get on and play with brand new toys

rabble rabble rabble rabble rant over !

[Mollesvinet]

Fighting characters got better, there's little difference offensively with other elves.

Not sure I agree about fighting characters getting better. I mean, they got ASF now but we no longer have access to 3+ ward or annoyance of netlings Agree with your other points though, especially the impact of wild riders and waywatchers. I remember there was talk about 6's ignoring armor save instead of doing a KB, instead all wounds ignore armour save which is insane but very welcome!


Overall I like the new book much better, with the only exception being the dryads and treekin (granted I didn't like treekin in the old book either). The treemen lost a wound and a point of strength, but they gained treewhack which is really helpful in many cases, shooting attack and more leadership. Fair deal overall I think, especially considering the point drop.

[Phil Rossiter]

To be fair Heroes are not great. It's hard to build them durable enough, though even the old eagle builds weren't foolproof. The Ancient suffers from lack of Netlings, though again it was hard to fit both this and a lvl4 with scroll before. TBH it's rare to find a single character now who can take an Ancient down quickly, so they do their blocking job pretty well. My old elf lord build (Stag, Conditional 3++, Helm, Potion, KB Spear) was vicious rd1 but the new one (Ogre Blade, Ch Shield, 4++) grinds better and is safer vs war machines. Challenges are important to him but Netlings meant dropping other gear and most fights aren't challenges.

But High Magic in the unit fixes most defensive issues and lets you go more aggressive. It's the new Harp but it works better on cavalry.

[NonnoSte]

But High Magic in the unit fixes most defensive issues and lets you go more aggressive. It's the new Harp but it works better on cavalry.

Except it's not granted.
I'd have loved High and Dark Magic attributes working as the Calaingor Staff does, and I agree with you, Phil, about the un-fluffiness of all the 8 lores.
A little expansion would have been great (even Ogres could master 4 lores other then their own, c'mon!), but I would have been happy with something like Beast, Life, Shadow and Light.
I still think that Light buffed Forest Spirits are just great.

About protection, I think that the simpliest think in the world could have been make Talismanic Tattoos to work like the mark of Tzeentch and made them available for characters as mundane upgrades.
I would have run a 3+/3++ Stag/Eagle Lord with Ogre Blade in every list.

[Phil Rossiter]

Having run them before and after I feel the cavalry are much better now. WR's are obviously awesome. But the 4++ of the Sisters is so much more durable than the old WR's it's not even funny. This gives a superb platform for characters because it brings static res and protection at range, whilst not giving up easy active res, not to mention other buffs like Razor standard and Lifebloom.

High Magic has low casting values which means it's hard for the enemy to stop everything. Every spell cast is another Counter and that's on top of 4++ (compared to Harp 5++) on the whole unit including characters. Normally I'd expect to get one spell through a turn except one turn where the enemy scrolls. But with the High spam phase it can be better than that.

[NonnoSte]

In my eperience (not that great, I sadly have to confess), It's quite difficult to achieve much more than the one spell per turn, unless you're running the Book of Ashur and you're sitting in a wood as well.
These premise, net you a dice per spell over a normal L4, allowing one more casting attempt per phase.
In an average phase where you have 6-8 dice, you can hope to cast reliably 3-4 spells, where your opponent will be able to stop just two.
But without the book, I don't see that huge advantage.
An Archmage with the Book of Hoeth looks to me like perfectly able to shut down a Spellweaver without the +2 to cast.
Slanns with rerolls too and a lot of armies have multiple items to interfere with the casting.

I'm not saying it doesn't work (I run it myself with the Giant Blade Lord and the AoD BSB), but it's just unreliable compared to other Elven or Undead Buses, or even Ogrin Deathstars.

This means that you have to seek combat just in the last two turns or you're likely to be killed, regardless of counters.

[Phil Rossiter]

The point is that the unit functions without magic. 4++ on everything limits damage pretty well and 7 S6 AP attacks kills stuff, the re-rollable Poison is good too. I just ran it at a tournament and while it has limits, 18" gives it choice about what it engages.

Say you have a 6v4 phase. Book of Hoeth is not enough to stop a six-diced spell, he has to scroll it. Or you throw three dice and he has to throw four dice at it, then you cast again on three. That's not taking Power Scroll, Power Stone or Forbidden Rod into account.

[DocDropPod]

I know I just would have liked to have some sort of special cloak or something, similar to Sea Dragon Cloak (DE) or White Lion Cloak (HE) just to make our Lords more effective.
Something like Oaken Armour (5+ scaly skin) or Athel Loren Cloak (additional -1 to hit in cc and shooting modifier)
Just brainstorming here
I dunno. Just feel we could have received some cool wargear...

[Stygian]

I would really like to see spites and kindreds make a return. And wardancers/WD characters get some love. Either change the way killing blow works so that it goes back to effecting mounted characters or give WD characters heroic KB. I would also like to see at least 1 way of getting a beatstick lord into the list. And for the love of loec quite doing unnecessary stuff like 25 pt item allowances!

Love the idea of talismanic tattoos as gear btw.

[nXken]

I like your take on the Tattoo's!
Instead of upgrading Light Armor, upgrade the tattoos for same points

The return of spites would be great! We'll need each fluffy edge to keep our own Asrai-identity once the HOTEK is real as a faction.

The Wardancer noble... i like the shadowdancer... sorry.

Special characters for "every unit" yes please! That would be epic!
O&G have special (named) characters for each and every unit of that army, we can't even deploy a Glade Rider Noble... (the possibilities... Combat Glade Rider Lord with ogre blade, TOTS, ....)

About the Oaken Armor: I've posted up an idea on this in the inventors challenge.

[Aezeal]

I'd like a few tattoo items. I'd like spites back as items. I'd like spites as a swarm. I'd like a shadowdancer being a viable choice in competative non comped play (and I'd like the magic upgrade a bit cheaper).

I don't really need the kindreds back though.

Mostly I hope the (rumored new) elf faction to be more like woodelves than HE or DE. The best shooting and magic of all the factions, with less emphasis on heavy armor (though borrowing a bit from HE/DE armor would be nice ). And I'd like the magic phase to be more end times and not like 8th, if we are the strongest mages I'd like us to be able to use TONS of power dice. IMHO channeling for power dice (not dispell dice) should get a big buff: 5+ for each magic level maybe. And then limit spells like dwellers to 1 succesfull cast per game (I mentioned that somewhere already.. was that in this topic?... nevermind.. I just WANT that). More spell casting units woudl fit the magic nature of elves too.... not 2 cav maybe.. but 1 infantry, 1 swarm (SPITES casting spells!!!), 1 infantry?

Dryads getting attack forms back would be nice too. If we could get the spites I'd not mind loosing either dryads or treekin (GW treekin are ugly.. make them go and give dryads back their old stats: T4, S4, attackforms and 2 wounds and 2 attacks it was I think: on a 25 mm base and as MI (2 supporting attacks, or 3 with correct shape )

[Etheneus]

I'd like a few tattoo items. I'd like spites back as items. I'd like spites as a swarm. I'd like a shadowdancer being a viable choice in competative non comped play (and I'd like the magic upgrade a bit cheaper).

I don't really need the kindreds back though.

Mostly I hope the (rumored new) elf faction to be more like woodelves than HE or DE. The best shooting and magic of all the factions, with less emphasis on heavy armor (though borrowing a bit from HE/DE armor would be nice ). And I'd like the magic phase to be more end times and not like 8th, if we are the strongest mages I'd like us to be able to use TONS of power dice. IMHO channeling for power dice (not dispell dice) should get a big buff: 5+ for each magic level maybe. And then limit spells like dwellers to 1 succesfull cast per game (I mentioned that somewhere already.. was that in this topic?... nevermind.. I just WANT that). More spell casting units woudl fit the magic nature of elves too.... not 2 cav maybe.. but 1 infantry, 1 swarm (SPITES casting spells!!!), 1 infantry?

Dryads getting attack forms back would be nice too. If we could get the spites I'd not mind loosing either dryads or treekin (GW treekin are ugly.. make them go and give dryads back their old stats: T4, S4, attackforms and 2 wounds and 2 attacks it was I think: on a 25 mm base and as MI (2 supporting attacks, or 3 with correct shape )

I agree to some point on this.

I would love to get more dice or something to boost the magic phase. I would have loved to see that our blessing also gave us 5+ channel in a forest aswell as the +1to cast.

Spites I would like to have back and that our treeman ancient could use them as before but I don't see why people miss the kindreds. I didn't play much with the old book but during the year I did I used them once to get a wardancer noble and now I have shadowdancers for that.

Give Shadowdancers and Waystalkers 50 p magic items allowance and just make the HoDA a non sniper item. How hard is that. My friends let me play like that at home and non complain.

I prefer tattoos over oak armor but always felt WE should have a cloak or something, specially on waywatchers, a camouflage that gives the enemy -1 to hit. Maybe just against ranged weapons but still something. And of course the tattoos should be stacking with other wards.

oh! And a treekin lord (special character also but not only) with rules that make treekin playable again.

[Aezeal]

No treekin lord.. we have treemen already. lets not mess things up.

BTW I mean that magic phase change for all races, as a BRB rule. If you put many mages on the table you should be able to use them better. I think 2x lvl 4 is already to much now but I'd like to be able to put 4 mages on the table reasonably competatively.. especially for a "magic" race like the elves.

[Stygian]

I'd like a few tattoo items. I'd like spites back as items. I'd like spites as a swarm. I'd like a shadowdancer being a viable choice in competative non comped play (and I'd like the magic upgrade a bit cheaper).

I don't really need the kindreds back though.

Mostly I hope the (rumored new) elf faction to be more like woodelves than HE or DE. The best shooting and magic of all the factions, with less emphasis on heavy armor (though borrowing a bit from HE/DE armor would be nice ). And I'd like the magic phase to be more end times and not like 8th, if we are the strongest mages I'd like us to be able to use TONS of power dice. IMHO channeling for power dice (not dispell dice) should get a big buff: 5+ for each magic level maybe. And then limit spells like dwellers to 1 succesfull cast per game (I mentioned that somewhere already.. was that in this topic?... nevermind.. I just WANT that). More spell casting units woudl fit the magic nature of elves too.... not 2 cav maybe.. but 1 infantry, 1 swarm (SPITES casting spells!!!), 1 infantry?

Dryads getting attack forms back would be nice too. If we could get the spites I'd not mind loosing either dryads or treekin (GW treekin are ugly.. make them go and give dryads back their old stats: T4, S4, attackforms and 2 wounds and 2 attacks it was I think: on a 25 mm base and as MI (2 supporting attacks, or 3 with correct shape )

I agree to some point on this.

I would love to get more dice or something to boost the magic phase. I would have loved to see that our blessing also gave us 5+ channel in a forest aswell as the +1to cast.

Spites I would like to have back and that our treeman ancient could use them as before but I don't see why people miss the kindreds. I didn't play much with the old book but during the year I did I used them once to get a wardancer noble and now I have shadowdancers for that.

Give Shadowdancers and Waystalkers 50 p magic items allowance and just make the HoDA a non sniper item. How hard is that. My friends let me play like that at home and non complain.

I prefer tattoos over oak armor but always felt WE should have a cloak or something, specially on waywatchers, a camouflage that gives the enemy -1 to hit. Maybe just against ranged weapons but still something. And of course the tattoos should be stacking with other wards.

oh! And a treekin lord (special character also but not only) with rules that make treekin playable again.

I'm playing with 50 pt allowance same hoda restriction. Hardly op'd and really opens up some worthwhile combos.

Mostly I just miss the viability of my wardancer tribe and WD Lord with blades of loec, and of course alter nobles. All my painted models. Eternals are same or better just no harp so my old favorite builds are mostly dead. Don't get me wrong though the new book is excellent to me, near perfect in fact so I can't complain much.. so many new options and now ethereals and regen aren't a nightmare like when I left. Plus DE/VC got toned way down since last I played against them.

[Hyarion]

... but I don't see why people miss the kindreds. I didn't play much with the old book but during the year I did I used them once to get a wardancer noble and now I have shadowdancers for that.

Give Shadowdancers and Waystalkers 50 p magic items allowance and just make the HoDA a non sniper item. How hard is that. My friends let me play like that at home and non complain.

On one hand, you are right, we had Wardancer kindred Nobles now we have Shadowdancers, we used to have Waywatcher Kindred Nobles now we have Waystalkers, what's the big deal, right?

Waystalkers (apart from the goofy magic item allowance) are virtually analogous, Shadowdancers are similar (the fact that they are now mages and may therefore not fit within a comp system or an armies fluff not withstanding) also but less so.

What made kindreds really special was that they could apply to Lords as well as to Nobles. So it's not just a Shadowdancer, it's a Shadowmaster with the full allowance of magical gear to really become a cuisinart of destruction. There were also more kindreds in the old book that didn't get the translation into the new book that added a lot of flavor to Wood Elf lists that really made them stand out from other elf lists.

I don't think it's too far out there to suppose that our current WE book was written with End Times and 9th edition in mind with their merging of the distinct elven factions into a single pointy eared nation. As part of that, I think the current WE book was written in such a way as to remove a lot of the distinctive things that made the WE stand out so much from their cousins. For playing end times games, I imagine that works quite well and on it's own, our book works quite well. But it lacks a some of the flavor that made it distinct and I think kindreds were a part of that that didn't necessarily have to be.

[Stygian]

I agree with Hyarion, and for people like myself who despise comp and have no desire to participate in end times those things are missed. I have my fill of competitive gaming via 40k where I can mesh my dark eldar with eldar and my grey knights with red scorps or sallies for all the broken goodness. I see what GW is trying to do but with fantasy they shouldn't IMO. Not that it matters much to my group anyway.. if 9th isn't cool we'll finally become those 'old dudes' that are stuck in the past of 8th edition lol.

[Aezeal]

Well I think you need to be realistic. The new book gave us a lot of new stuff to play with and some things had to be cut. I certainly wouldn't have mind if all those options where still available but I don't really miss it.