Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

[astorre]

I need a breakdown haha... what's a good comp to aim for? What's the comp matter? How are games scored?

[astorre]

Here is what I have now, though I have no idea if its good under comp:

Lv 4 Lifeweaver - Acorn

Glade Captain - BSB, GW, Armor of Silvered Steel, Trueflight Arrow
Lv 2 Shadowsinger - Dispel Scroll

28 Eternal Guard - FC
23 Eternal Guard - FC, Banner of Discipline

28 Wildwood Rangers - FC
5 Wardancers - Champ
12 Scouts - Starfire
12 Scouts - Hagbane
12 Scouts - Hagbane

12 Waywatchers

2499pts
Comp: 12.0

[Phil Rossiter]

Normally tournaments give a limit for acceptable comp scores, eg between 10 and 15 say. Some tournaments make the difference between scores affect VP's, some TP's. Have the US Masters organisers said much yet?

Last year was won by a HE player, there was an interesting discussion on this thread:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62213

The thing was that the winner actually used pretty much the same army all the time, he just tweaked it slightly for Swedish comp. The key may be to pick a build you think is pretty decent but maybe under-used or that people will be unfamiliar with, as it's likely to comp better. For some armies MSU combat can be s good move, as Swe comp tends to punish big units. Not sure how well that would work with Wood Elves.

[astorre]

Normally tournaments give a limit for acceptable comp scores, eg between 10 and 15 say. Some tournaments make the difference between scores affect VP's, some TP's. Have the US Masters organisers said much yet?

Last year was won by a HE player, there was an interesting discussion on this thread:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62213

The thing was that the winner actually used pretty much the same army all the time, he just tweaked it slightly for Swedish comp. The key may be to pick a build you think is pretty decent but maybe under-used or that people will be unfamiliar with, as it's likely to comp better. For some armies MSU combat can be s good move, as Swe comp tends to punish big units. Not sure how well that would work with Wood Elves.

No I dont know much about the Tournament yet, I have to February to get ready.
I was really hoping you'd chime in! The list I posted above, isn't it similar to the combat list you were discussing in the other thread?

[Phil Rossiter]

Thanks astorre.

My list was more mixed it only had one infantry block for example. I like cavalry too much! The problem I can see is killing stuff if you're not in a wood. The Rangers backed by Life look pretty sound. EG will be reliable but without Venom Thicket poison they're unlikely to kill much. You might get lucky and roll Withering or Mindrazor but you might not. The shooting looks fine, I just wonder if it's worth trading one unit of EG out for something.

Maybe a couple of eagles and how bad is the comp hit for upgrading the lvl2 to a lvl4?

[tomrobo23]

depending on the advantages of comp is how you decide which comp score is better. for instance bjorn supremacy used the difference to convey vps. 1 comp score difference was 100 pts advantage at the start of the game, it was worth taking a worse list for better comp.

Best way is to read the comp to find units that arent badly hit by comp and use them over a more optimised unit i think.people taking awful units for the comp score just had awful units which were useless. Also Sweedish due to unit size brackets generally meant you take character stars as they optimise points for punch and comp score. Also deamons and lizardmen got away with murder.

I loved sweedish. i was using empire at the time and i was in the top ten going into the last few rounds and i was using horde of halberds horde of greatswords (soft on comp and i love them) with a lvl4 metal (comp again but also good synergy) and no cannons or demi gryphs or steam tanks.

I was playing deamons and they had mono slaanesh with 2 giant chariot things and it was a great game which would never normally happen at a tournament. Likewise i got to play lord kroak, how often did you see him (especially before the rise of dark elves and wood elves)

[Phil Rossiter]

Just run the numbers on a couple of my lists.

The one I posted in the Regen thread (with Moonstone) that finished half-way at a lightly-comped tourney came in at 14.2. My new list, which I'm sure is better, comes in at 14.5!

[astorre]

This one comes in at 11.4:

Lv 4 Treeman Ancient
Lv 3 Shadoweaver - Dispel Scroll
Sisters of Twilight

11 Dryads
13 Glade Guard - Musician, Standard, Arcane Bodkins
13 Glade Guard - Musician, Standard, Arcane Bodkins
13 Glade Guard - Musician, Standard, Trueflight Arrows

6 Wild Riders - Shields
6 Scouts - Hagbane Tips
6 Scouts - Hagbane Tips

12 Waywatchers
Treeman

[Phil Rossiter]

The Ancient looks better vs normal cannon than your basic Treeman because of the extra wound and the healing. Needs to be hidden from Flaming ones though. Has to be the general too. Not sure if they let special characters in last year.

[Shyanekh]

Not sure if they let special characters in last year.

In my experience most Swedish comp tournaments do allow special characters. However, they don't tend to get looked at and assessed with the same level of detail that other units do. I've found that a lot of them just aren't worth their comp hit as a result.

Personally I like to try and aim for roughly the mid range in terms of my army comp. So in an 8-14 environment I'd try to get an 11.

[astorre]

I think this is a 0-20 environment, but each point of difference nets a bonus 100vp, up to 800. I'm tryin to figure out how to get the most shots in I can with a few units that can break ranks.

[astorre]

A few questions:
Arcane Bodkins on GG, worth it? Trueflight and hagbane are comped heavily after first 25 arrows.
Trueflight GG, Hagbane Scouts, or both?
What are Rangers/EG good at?
What do y'all think of this Glade Lord build:
Daiths Reaper, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Strength
What do y'all think of lone Captains on Great Stags?

[jberrysf]

Here's what I noticed, trying to build my lists.

Death, Shadow and Life are comped pretty hard, so I'd look at High Magic or Heavens and build from there.
Glade Guard and Scouts get comped harder for Hagbane and Trueflight, while Waywatchers in general are hit hard. I might take only 1 Trueflight GG unit and then one Arcane Bodkins unit. The tricky thing I saw is that Glade Riders dont have different comp values for Hagbane or Trueflight. I'm probably going to take 10 GG with Trueflight, 10 GG with Arcane, 9 Glade Riders with Hagbane and 6 Glade Riders with Hagbane and cut Waywatchers down to a single unit of 7 or 9. Not sure yet. 7 is -11 while 9 is -15. Not sure if the extra 4 are worth it.

Lastly, it comes down to seeing the little things in the comp system and min/maxing as best you can. For example, since 5-6 Wild Riders is -9 (with shields, obviously) you take 6 instead of 5 because there is literally no comp hit for that 6th model. So you find those little places to save a point here and a point there and you should be able to pull a decent score. I put in a pretty beardy list and ended up at exactly 10, but I need to see if I can whittle that down some more.

[Jamesaet3]

I had a comp of 12.5 for one tournament and I still got stomped.

My next list is actually a 15.9 comp and I think Its gonna rock at the next tournament.

[Phil Rossiter]

Links for 2015 Masters, courtesy of Swordmaster:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67403

[Coyle_Ravane]

A few questions:
Arcane Bodkins on GG, worth it? Trueflight and hagbane are comped heavily after first 25 arrows.

No, really bad value compared to waywatchers. Only ever worth it in tailored lists where you know your opponent.

Trueflight GG, Hagbane Scouts, or both?

Both

What are Rangers/EG good at?

EG can beat a lot of core infantry in combat, and can hold most more powerful units for a while, used cleverly they can take your opponent's best unit out of the game for 2 or 3 turns. WWR can beat a lot of low to medium quality infantry quite easily, and only need a little help even against most elite troops. Also good vs trolls, Ogres etc.

What do y'all think of this Glade Lord build:
Daiths Reaper, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Strength

Ok, but WE just don't build particularly good combat characters.

What do y'all think of lone Captains on Great Stags?

They can have uses in the right list, but generally not worth it.

[Phil Rossiter]

Problem with the Lord build is that Reaper plus PoS is 70pts. 3+ RR is fine vs S5 but not more powerful stuff.

For horsed characters the Ward armours are well worth a look because you get +1 AS almost for free.

[astorre]

Thanks y'all! Very helpful.
Coyle, while trueflight gg, hagbane scouts, and ww is best its comped extremely heavy. Taking 2x10 WW, 3x6 hb scouts, and 13 TFA Gg sets your comp back 10.1 pts out of 30! Its really hard gettin the rest of your army in without gettin down to 8 comp or below, and a lot of people will be startin 300-500 points up on you.

[Coyle_Ravane]

Well, it depends on the style of list you're building, but 12 trueflight guard, 2x 6 hagsbane scouts and 10x waywatchers is only about 4 off your comp score, but it's a pretty decent shooty core for an army. Even adding in that second trueflight guard unit doesn't take you past 5

If you really want to be shooty, maybe add another dozen GG with BoEF and no arrows, or some swiftshiver guard if you use high magic. Neither will add much to your comp.

[astorre]

I'm about to just say forget comp and take a 5-7 haha... I'm gonna get my army together next month but I'm havin trouble fittin in all the stuff I like!

[LandonElf]

A few questions:
Arcane Bodkins on GG, worth it? Trueflight and hagbane are comped heavily after first 25 arrows.

No, really bad value compared to waywatchers. Only ever worth it in tailored lists where you know your opponent.

Trueflight GG, Hagbane Scouts, or both?

Both

What are Rangers/EG good at?

EG can beat a lot of core infantry in combat, and can hold most more powerful units for a while, used cleverly they can take your opponent's best unit out of the game for 2 or 3 turns. WWR can beat a lot of low to medium quality infantry quite easily, and only need a little help even against most elite troops. Also good vs trolls, Ogres etc.

What do y'all think of this Glade Lord build:
Daiths Reaper, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Potion of Strength

Ok, but WE just don't build particularly good combat characters.

What do y'all think of lone Captains on Great Stags?

They can have uses in the right list, but generally not worth it.

Your advice would normally be sound, but not in a situation where a softer comp score> a hard list. Let me expand.

Arcane bodkins are pretty meh usually, however hagbane and trueflight are comped all to hell, and so are waywatchers. Bodkins are much more logical choices in a situation where a 3rd unit of Trueflight could cost you a 270 pts per match handicap.

To the OP- If you need heavy hitters, go ahead and take two units of 6 wildriders. They arent comped too bad until you go beyond 12. Im not a real fan of combat wood elves, but if you need more, consider EG. As they can help you bypass glade guard comp in your core.

The Great Stag is fantastic in swedish comp, as it allows you to spend alot of points without taking much comp hit. Stag plus 50 pts in magic items is only an extra -1 comp, since your already paying for a BSB anyway. Compare this to say a unit of 5 sisters which are -12!!

[jberrysf]

I've been having the same conundrum with my list and I posted a thread very much relating to this here: http://asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=28024

I tend to agree, by the way, with LandonElf, about both Arcane Bodkins instead of Waywatchers and about Glade Captains on a Stag. It might be feasible to run a slew of the Stag Captains (and maybe even a Unicorn Caster, like Phazael) and get a pretty low comp hit for a decent amount of damage output...

Another thing I like and you could think about is 3 or 4 Branchwraiths, who are only -5 each as disposable hitty hero level redirectors/casters.

[astorre]

Someone at Redstone ran a Highweaver on a Unicorn and 3 Stag Captains... not sure how they did.overall but it gave my buddy fits

[Coyle_Ravane]

Someone at Redstone ran a Highweaver on a Unicorn and 3 Stag Captains... not sure how they did.overall but it gave my buddy fits

I was just thinking that you might get a nice comp score running a stagbus. 4 stag captains and a beastweaver on a unicorn, in a unit of sisters. 2+ ward vs spells, 4+ ward vs shooting. Boosted savage beast. At least 3 ranks for sisters casting bonus, and denying steadfast.

[Phil Rossiter]

Will cannon armies still typically bring 2 under Swedish?