Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

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Phazael
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Phazael »

In my personal experience, WW are not essential in large numbers. One modest sized unit to chip down armor has always gotten it done for me. I leave the armor hunting to the Wild Riders. For me, I don't like the MR penalty counting for Sister units when the only source in the army is a Unicorn that cannot claim LOS from them. Even when I ran two five packs I NEVER joined my unicorn to the unit. I am also not a big fan of penalizing five packs for MR in either Sisters or Wild Riders, but I can at least understand penalizing the voluntary items slightly.

But with the shot penalty, I ran two 20 packs of TF and a small WW unit and still snuck under the shot cap, which I consider a butt-ton of shooting for even a WE army. Forty TF shots will really shred just about any infantry or chaff unit out there, especially if the WW chip in with some double tapping to mop up. I am frankly shocked that shooting is as underpenalized as it is in the Swedish WE comp.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Bogi »

Definitely shooting is not penalised a lot, though I do feel that it should not be penalised more. In my usual lists I run no glade guard, under swedish I run them a lot since fast cav are too heavily penalised, war hawks counting for this cap makes it worse.

A used a sisters bus a lot and I feel it is not a powerful option at all, but it is popular and I guess kind of safe, they usually dont do anything. Swedish does hit the popular stuff as well as the good stuff, they want to provide variety and if a lot of people take the sisters bus then it must be good anyway? Why would everyone take a weak unit? There simply is not a good alternative. Foot based list or in the sisters are the only obvious choices, and I think the foot based lists are a weaker option. I place my lv4, or 2 lv4s, inside a WR unit, then usually jump them out into some glade riders....usually.

I use my WR bunker in way so that I minimise the risk of frenzy. Sometimes I try to get my BSB in a good firing position for the HoDA without him having to move and suffer minus to hit, this means a vanguard shot. I failed my ld to charge once only, usually there is an eagle or two to block the charge or I face my butt to the enemy if I dont need Line of sight. The one time I did not block a charge, failed a ld10 frenzy and went straight into a shade star. The end result was me winning combat but the only two remaining models on my side was my BSB and a lv4, who promptly died next turn. I won the game 12-8 so it was not so bad since the shades and characters in them did mostly die in the combat.

I have never taken a unicorn with the new book, I have done it in the old book, and in 7th ed it was no problem to do so. I want to try it and it almost seems to resolve the issues of having a mage bunker, but then high magic, is it good enough? Can the range problem of that high magic has be mitigated with a unicorn? Do you then stack up on swiftshifer shards and rely on the BS hand of glory buff? How many extra wounds will hand of glory on 10 WW do compared to -1T debuff on the enemy? I like the debuff since 2 units can both shoot at the same target. Take a unit of 15WW instead of 2x10? Take any support casters, some with a decent combat spell, and where would this mage go? I always thought death magic was a great lore on armies that did not need combat support but it still had soulblight, while High only has hand of glory which is really not that good. 8th ed since the start was an edition where the only reason charging was important was the chance to cast the strong combat buffs/hexes that came with the edition. Charge then cast, or even let him over run then cast. High does not do it for me in the combat phase.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Phazael »

L4 High, Scroll, Sword of Antiheros, and Talisman of Preservation has been my most productive build, when I am not sneaking a frog scroll in there. It opens up a lot of options on how you use her and you don't need to dump more points on characters. Two five packs of Sisters (who serve other purposes) are all the additional magic support I have ever felt I needed.

High magic is absolutely mitigated by a model that can march 20, especially if you roll Walk. You are missing the key component here, though, which is true flight arrows. The only units that I drop Hand on are generally combat units, especially against other elf armies or chaos armies. Being able to hit other elite elves and warriors on 3s with Wild Riders is going to mean a lot more than boosting archery. With True Flight in the mix, the Unicorn can sneak deep into enemy turf to harass chaff and war machines, participate in combo charges, or tie up troublesome single model units. She can buff other combat characters or units that operate on the enemy side of the table. The only spell I generally use on my archer units is Walk to maneuver them on to objectives or just plain out of trouble.

Remember that there are two key elements to the tactics I am using. First, I am engaging the enemy on their side of the table. This keeps him away from my archers, who can safely drill whatever they want from deep cover and distance, thanks to TF arrows. It also prevents the enemy from adjusting his position to better support his combats. Second, I am nickel and diming with 2d High Spells for counters, making the Unicorn able to choke out whatever the largest threat that is otherwise unkillable (and there is always something like this) for the last half of the game. Its amazing how easy it is to stop a lot of armies when they A) never leave their table half, and B) have their biggest hammer/crutch sidelined. Assuming one does not waste gobs of points on superfluous characters and is willing to sacrifice units for position, there is a lot of points you can rack up with 40 TF shots a turn, especially if something like 20 stubborn elite elves are standing in a venom thicket in front of them.

I know its a radical departure from the conventional wisdom, but really when you stuff all those points into characters and THEN cram them into one unit, it is really easy for good players to neutralize it, either by creating a giant zone of NOPE around it (light shooting, counter charges, ect) or to simply ignore it since its painfully obvious that the opponent has no intention of entering into any but the most lopsided combats. It is also way to reliant on the magic phase for my liking, and we all know how that can go south in a hurry. At least with something like the Unicorn, I can bunker or hide her until she works up some counters. In the case of the small Sister Packs, they perform other valuable functions in the army. IF you roll a low magic phase with the Sister Star, you are basically having 600-700 points sitting completely idle for a turn.

And I don't begrudge anyone for running it. It is effective and straightforward to use. I just don't believe it to be the best the book has to offer and I personally do not find it fun to use.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Aezeal »

I myself (not playing swedish) play a shooty army and I like it so that might be why I thought shooting was a bit heavily comped (well mostly the WW shots counting double). In uncomped games I really feel I need 15 of them to deal with armored units.
How do your TF hold up against T4 troops and monster btw? I prefer to have scouts and at least half my GG on the HB to deal with monsters and warmachines. I guess comp means the enemy can bring less nasties too but still it seems hard to deal with them with the list you mention.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Phazael »

Well, it really depends on the target in question. Here are some of the more common things I see and what I do about them.

Demon Prince of Nurgle/Tzeench- Ignore it (or contain it with Wild Riders), maybe blow up an item with Arcane Unforging, and then tank it late game with Unicorn to run out the clock on it.
Dwarf Warriors/Chaos Warriors/Plague Bearers/ ____ Orks- Soften them up a little with true flight, if no other good targets are around. Set up combo charges on unit once chaff has been addressed with Wild Riders and maybe Unicorn or Stag. Snipe out unit champs with Waystalker to prevent them from tossing the champ under the bus in challenges later.
Ogre Character Wall- Force flank charge situation with Wild Riders if possible. Ignore and chaff out if not. Drill with True Flight and Quench once other ranged threats (leadies, Iron Blasters) have been addressed. Try to snipe crown or hellheart with Unforging if possible.
Beasts of Nurgle/Trolls- Do not engage. Chaff out until other threats are dealt with. Otherwise ignore them unless you can bring the entire house down on them at once.

Really with T4, the simple rule is this. If it has a 3+ or better armor save, then send in the Wild Riders and mop up survivors later. If it has worse, keep it contained until shooting has deleted all opposing chaff and ranged threats. If it has regen and/or T5, leave it the hell alone until you can bring overwhelming force to the fight. Plague Drones are somewhat of an exception, because they can be broomed by Wild Riders and are easily tanked by the Unicorn or Stag, if need be.

I know people love the Hagbane, and against a monster at short range (or when you have not moved), it is slightly better than true flight. Thing is, getting that kind of fish in a barrel scenario is very rare and TF outclasses poison in just about every other circumstance, especially when it comes to deleting chaff or things in hard cover, like that 10 man Dark Elf Xbow unit hiding in a building with their wizard, for example. With True Flight, you can fire through the woods, into the building, in my sleep, underwater, with the lights off, and its still going to hit on 3s. Against your basic T4 opposition, a 20 pack of TF will push rougly 5-6 wounds before saves on T4, while poison matches that only if you are stationary, at point blank, and the target is completely in the open. TF also effectively takes a lot of defensive upgrades and spells out of the equasion. And if you don't dig the unicorn and swap in a heavens caster on foot, it is even more ridiculously murderous. You can also Walk them into firing positions and still hit at base BS. Wood elves simply cannot fit an answer for every situation into a list, even if you want to comp in the toilet, so my plan is always to eliminate enemy fire and chaff so that I can move around the table with impunity. This makes containing or ignoring the unkillable stuff a lot simpler. Hell, if you like evasion play you can just run away and walk off with a minor win in most cases. Also, I have found people tend to pucker up if you start chipping wounds with the Waystalker off of their BSB or wizard, becoming very reluctant to expose such characters to sniping.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Aezeal »

Your Arrow math isn't correct. It is right for T4.. but monsters and lots of other nasty stuff has T5.. and there the differences are relatively big and in favor of HB.

BTW I usually only hit on 5+ with my hagbanes, since I shoot at monsters (no cover) or approaching units (no cover) usually only long range even since I usually don't have to move either if I deploy them on either side of the midline (usually both my units have a target on their own side). Most often I would thus hit on 4+, maybe 5+ if I move (but I hardly do that) or they are behind a forest.

The calculations are only for hitting and wounding (AS is the same after that). I've used 36 arrows as a base since that makes multiplying with dice most easy.
When you see 2/6 * 2/6 the first one is to hit, the second to wound (2/6 obviously being 5+). HB damage starts with 6/36 (the 6's which then auto wound) and then the remaining to hit rolls are added after multiplying the to wound roll. For TF all damage at a certain T is the same (since not difference in hitting and wounding). I think these cover the most relevant rolls. Only on the 6+ to hit at T4 does TF perform better.

T4
4+ hit, 5+ wound
HB: 6/36 (poison)+ ( 2/6 * 2/6) = 10/36
TF: 4/6 * 2/6 = 8/36

5+ to hit 5+ wound
HB: 6/36 + ( 1/6 * 2/6) = 8/36
TF : 8/36

6+ to hit
Hb: 6/36
TF: 8/36

T5(or higher)
4+ hit, 6+ wound
HB: 6/36 (poison)+ ( 2/6 * 1/6) = 8/36
TF: 4/6 * 1/6 = 4/36

5+ to hit 6+ wound
HB: Poison 6/36 (1/6) + ( 1/6 * 1/6) = 7/36
TF : 4/36

6+ to hit
Hb: 6/36
TF: 4/36
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Aezeal »

Ofcourse T3 is in favor of TF when hitting on 5+ or higher (equal on 4+ to hit).
On the 3+ to hit everything is in favor of the HB obviously. (After turn 2 a lot of targets are in short range so that could be relevant more than half of the game).

T3
4+ hit, 4+ wound
HB: 6/36 (poison)+ ( 2/6 * 3/6) = 12/36
TF: 4/6 * 3/6 = 12/36

5+ to hit 5+ wound
HB: 6/36 + ( 1/6 * 3/6) = 9/36
TF : 12/36

6+ to hit
Hb: 6/36
TF: 12/36
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Mollesvinet »

The numbers are still relatively close, even for higher toughness. Try doing the math for hagbane shooting at units in buildings or enemies hiding behind their allies for hard cover. As soon as you hit 7+ to hit with hagbane the difference in numbers is enormous.

I think a balance is best and for me I put poison on scouts and trueflight on glade guard as a rule of thumb.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Aezeal »

I never shoot at 7+ to hit with GG obviously :D. But really on 6+ to wound the difference can be pretty major. That means warmachines and monsters and those I often want gone first (I got seperate WW for armored troops). Anyway the math is there so people can decide for themselves.
I usually take 2 units of HB and 1 unit of TF and then HB scouts too (won't fit in comp I think though). If something is in heavy cover I've got the TF as backup.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Gorsameth »

Mollesvinet wrote:The numbers are still relatively close, even for higher toughness. Try doing the math for hagbane shooting at units in buildings or enemies hiding behind their allies for hard cover. As soon as you hit 7+ to hit with hagbane the difference in numbers is enormous.

I think a balance is best and for me I put poison on scouts and trueflight on glade guard as a rule of thumb.
How are the High Toughness numbers close when Hagbane does double the wounds?
Yes hard to hit targets the Truelfight is better, that is there whole job and when dealing with that or chaff they are superior but they don't even come close to being as effective against T5 or greater targets which includes crucial targets like warmachines and giant flying deathdealing monsters.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Mollesvinet »

The number is only double when you hit at 4+ so this is only the case against some monsters but not warmachines. Remember we are talking about glade guard here, so at least 24" away and if your opponent gives you a clear shot at his warmachines without having to move then he is asking for it to die.

I guess some of my dislike to hagbane is my opinion that hitting on 5's and 6's is not very wood elvish :P

Being grounded is also against my nature, as we used to be able to move and shoot without penalties
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Phazael »

There is also the reliability to consider. If I get a 5er of Sisters or WW into combat with that war machine on turn two, then I can use the GG to shred advancing infantry. Also, with TF I can put my combat units in the way and keep the enemy tentative to advance. In my experience, most people are not going to place a monster in the center of the table unless it is screened, has a fair armor save, or is behind some form of cover. While HB undoubtedly shred larger monsters in the armies of more novice players, strong opponents will never let you get clean shots on anything important.

Talking from the perspective of my other main tourney army (Mono Slaanesh DoC), I routinely have the greater daemon following a soul grinder in and usually moving up a flank, so that an entire army of bowmen cannot focus fire. That grinder is usually sporting a flame cannon and gives no care to Wild Riders at all. There is usually a second grinder walking along side that one or on the opposing flank and there are a host of other fast moving chaff units zooming forward that I am more than ready to lose to get the monsters stuck in. In that scenario, the Grinders simply will not die in time (4+ armor, 5++ Ward) and certainly not before they have time to cripple archery/cav units with their flame cannon, even with my preferred shooting setup. You basically have one turn to pick something to shoot at and you are looking at a likely light cover scenario if you put a forest anywhere I can interpose it. If there IS any obstructing cover, you are going to push one wound per 12 HB GG at long range while not moving (once I am in short, flame cannon goes to work) and TF puts forward almost the same with the added ability to move.

That's not the issue, though. The issue is that you really want to kill the Keeper behind that Grinder before it gets into combat or (worse) drops Cacobomb on your face and ends the game. The issue is that the Keeper is behind hard cover from the grinder and likely out of range of the bulk of the HB guys, so you have to move to bring more shots to bear, which means hitting on 7s. More and more DoC players are moving towards using Grinders, so the likelihood of facing someone doing this is getting greater.

That scenario might seem rare, but I am noticing a lot more dragons and flying monsters out there in other armies and those can certainly be easily hidden behind another resilient monster, be it Hydra/Karryb/Cauldron for Dark Elves, Treemen for us, Phoenix for HE, or various things in the Warriors book. It is also pretty easy to plop war machines out of initial range and in hard cover for most armies that bring them to the table, requiring you to fire on the move for the early turns. Not to insult anyone's view on this, but I don't recall anyone just marching a lone giant up the middle of the table against my wood elf army in any tournament I ever played in. The main point being, the math does not tell the whole story, especially if you play a pressure style like mine where you take most of the fight to their deployment zone.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Q10fanatic »

I usually drop my HB guard on a hill if possible. That removes cover from intervening units. I'll then drop HB scouts somewhere with either short range or a clear line of fire. That allows me to threaten any war machines that scare me first turn.

If need be, I can cast Hand on my unit of HB to get them hitting on 6s if I move them.
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Re: Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

Post by Phazael »

That solves the interposing unit problem (for non large targets), but not the distance problem for war machines or other forms of cover (being in a building or ruins, being behind woods, ect). I also am not a fan of magic dependent strategies, especially that rely on one spell getting off (with the obvious exception of High Counter Spam).
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