Anyone have any experience with Masters/Swedish?

[Q10fanatic]

Hello Phazael, thanks for the response.

Re: BSB - I had been playing almost this exact list with a BSB with AoSS and a GW in the EG block. My problem with the BSB was two fold: much of my army was so spread out that it didn't get re-rolls; and killy characters and most other blocks were eventually able to wear down the block and get his points.

I had played with the old list for several games and they started following a pattern. In the first 2-3 turns, I would dominate. I'd take out virtually every monster, war machine, and small unit. Then, over the last 3 turns I would be really ineffective and struggle to do anything. The old list really, really struggled with large blocks and super-kitted out characters. High magic helped, but a competent opponent knew what to dispel. My hope is that the metal mage will give me another hard counter to armor and force my opponents to make difficult decisions in my magic phase.

Glade Lord - I love the HoDA on the Lord, it's a psychological weapon as much as anything, especially with Hand of Glory cast on him. With that said, he doesn't do much else well. So fantastic points denial but otherwise limited offensive potential. I'm considering Ogre Blade and OTS as a possible alternate.

UniWeaver - I've actually been playing the 4++, Power Stone, Crown of command as well, with decent results. This is just an alternate kit. I like being able to bully people with the +6 to cast, but its not something I feel strongly about.

Metal Mage - Partly there for the dispel scroll, also there to threaten heavy cav and help me get that key spell through.

Hagbane - I've had great results with these actually. When I used Trueflight I would really really struggle to deal with anything T5 or better. Never seemed to roll 6s. It may be my meta, everyone I play brings 2 monsters, warmachines, or monstrous cav/infantry blocks.

Hagbane Scouts - I use the scout to make sure I can hit warmachines on 6s first turn, target monsters, and act as chaff. It may be a meta thing, but they typically perform well for me. What would you suggest I replace them with? More Wild Riders?

Waywatchers - Have you been able to use them effectively in smaller units? my experience has been that they need the numbers to be effective against T4 or better.

Phil Rossiter - Thanks for the response. I guess I have the same question regarding waywatchers for you. Do you find that they're effective against high toughness questions?

[Bogi]

I would not go to a Swedish Comp without a mounted death mage. They are brutal with 6 dice and as many free dice as you like. Compliment with moonstone in the list and its cheesy, some people will not want to play you, so take it only to win tournaments. So many lists are susceptible to the purple sun. Dwarfs unless they break the spell are in huge trouble. Place her in a large WR block and your ready to go.

Huge comp hit that you then compensate with a lord for ld10 sniper, HoDA and +3S sword in case things want to charge in and die. Lots of glade guard in units of 13, 18, 23 or what ever the bracket is.....I think glade riders are a much better unit so take them up to the maximum before fast cav comp comes in, and thats it. My list is over 18 swedish comp, when high comp is allowed, and I have to say that it would beat a lot of uncomped tournament lists.

The death mage wins games on her own, simple as that.

[Aezeal]

I go about 50-50 on hagbane and TF on GG usually THEN about 15-20 ww/HB scouts divided as needed (this is uncomped btw).

I really like hagbane myself.


Bogi: I will be looking into deathmagic for my next game.. how does it perform against the nasty chaos characters and HE/DE armies?

[Phil Rossiter]

Yeah I can understand that Phazael. Even within England there are North/South variations and such, I've never played a tournament north of London. In a country the size of the US it's a lot more pronounced.

Normally I would say Q10fanatic that you have enough shots to deal with high T stuff, even with reduced Hagbane. But I guess your meta says otherwise. I have 2x10 Core Hagbane and 12 Waywatchers. The Hagbane are enough to deal with high T, with multi-shot support from the watchers, last game they took down a Bloodthirster for example. Games vs Leadbelcher-heavy Ogres are fine so long as you use cover and range. But I consider the WW essential vs armour lists.

[Aezeal]

I consider both WW and hagbane essential. But only HB on the GG I think I'd not have enough HB in the right place at the right time (turn 1) to start doing damage right away.
Funny you play with full HB on the GG.. I was under the impression most (and more and more) people preferred TF on GG.

[Phil Rossiter]

With this book I've faced Star Dragons, Phoenixes, Greater Daemons, Chimerae, Abominations, Varghulfs and there are plenty more criminals out there, such as Plague Drones. These are my primary worry, not war machines so much. War machines on the whole won't do so much damage to largely MSU elves as big flyers will, if left unchecked. 30" from a hill or building is a large threat zone and big guys will be coming for me anyway.

With 60 bow shots say, those 20 Hagbane would be Trueflight. But with just 20 Trueflight and 12 Waywatchers, the bad boys mentioned above would have a field day.

[Aezeal]

With this book I've faced Star Dragons, Phoenixes, Greater Daemons, Chimerae, Abominations, Varghulfs and there are plenty more criminals out there, such as Plague Drones. These are my primary worry, not war machines so much. War machines on the whole won't do so much damage to largely MSU elves as big flyers will, if left unchecked. 30" from a hill or building is a large threat zone and big guys will be coming for me anyway.

With 60 bow shots say, those 20 Hagbane would be Trueflight. But with just 20 Trueflight and 12 Waywatchers, the bad boys mentioned above would have a field day.

yeah you need to kill monsters fast . I would not use less than say.. 15 hagbanes per 1000 points at minimum really. Usually half my GG have TF and all my scouts.
I don't like warmachines however... you say not much damage against MSU WE.. and that is true.. but on WR they can quickly kill their points worth. Even that wouldn't be my biggest problem with them though.. I just really fear the direct hit on my lvl 4 which ruins my magic phase for the rest of the game. If they kill my lvl 4 in turn 1-2 it's game over.. some armies might survive that.. but not WE I think, certainly not in my army.

[Beragon]

With this book I've faced Star Dragons, Phoenixes, Greater Daemons, Chimerae, Abominations, Varghulfs and there are plenty more criminals out there, such as Plague Drones. These are my primary worry, not war machines so much. War machines on the whole won't do so much damage to largely MSU elves as big flyers will, if left unchecked. 30" from a hill or building is a large threat zone and big guys will be coming for me anyway.

With 60 bow shots say, those 20 Hagbane would be Trueflight. But with just 20 Trueflight and 12 Waywatchers, the bad boys mentioned above would have a field day.

yeah you need to kill monsters fast . I would not use less than say.. 15 hagbanes per 1000 points at minimum really. Usually half my GG have TF and all my scouts.
I don't like warmachines however... you say not much damage against MSU WE.. and that is true.. but on WR they can quickly kill their points worth. Even that wouldn't be my biggest problem with them though.. I just really fear the direct hit on my lvl 4 which ruins my magic phase for the rest of the game. If they kill my lvl 4 in turn 1-2 it's game over.. some armies might survive that.. but not WE I think, certainly not in my army.

Yeah, and doom divers, repeater bolt throwers, and organ guns have never been nice to my elves.

[Phazael]

Most of the things you cite as problematic and are trying to deal with shooting are really best dealt with by one of two things:

1) Unicorn- Flank, maybe horn pushes a wound, and charge. You win combat by three. That sends most single model units packing by itself. When dealing with one rank units or chariots, I sneak her behind the ranks and abuse the hell out of her protection counters. She is also a masterful war machine killer for similar reasons.

2) Suicide Wild Riders- Seriously, these guys will obliterate enemy armor if you send them in. Even when they get wiped out, what remains is easily scooped up by a few random TF or WW shots. The six packs, at least, are a big fire and forget missile designed to cripple various high armor or toughness threats.

Of late, I have also been dorking around with a Dragon Lord packing the Obsidian Blade, which has been surprisingly effective, but the first two options are more reliable.

@Q10-
Small WW units can chip knights down for the wild riders or mob up the remainders of a suicide charge. They can also double as war machine hunters. Finally, they can (when small) function as sacrificial blockers to enemy vanguard. A lot of times, opponents will leave small units alone in the face of a Wild Rider unit, but a large unit will always draw attention for its value and have issues with maneuvering. A small unit can also support the enemy infantry shots with double tapping quite effectively. Basically, my take on wood elves is that the characters and large archery units need to live and the rest of the army is expendable, so I don't like the large unit.

As for the BSB, I know you may not favor this, but I mount mine on a Stag. Its great for soft scores and it makes it a small combat unit in its own right, particularly when working in tandem with the Unicorn. It also lets you move his radius to where it will do the most good. Worst case scenario, you can join him with the Unicorn to share protection counters if needed (and MR). The downside is that the comp hit for what he does is a little big, but he does bring a lot to the table if you are practiced with him. Until I got on my dragon kick recently, he was also my only fighting character.

As for the scouts, I see several alternative options. Five man Sisters units make great escorts for the Wild Riders and excellent monster/war machine hunters. They also supplement your magic phase. War Hawks carry a much smaller comp cost and do a lot of the same things, plus they are one of the most overlooked units in the entire army book. Additional small WW units are also a good choice, because if you are taking the scout hit for 18 point models, why not pay 2 more per and get WW? Another option I have seen used to great effect are Branch Wraiths. A couple of these gives you a good shot at having Dwellers, plus they make excellent chaff while providing terror defense for your archer units. Finally, there are the extremely comp friendly Glade Riders. They suck on the surface, but also have a good role as late game fortitude or objective claimers. Their main problem (ambush) becomes a boon if they come in too late for the enemy to divert attention to them.

Re: Death Mages-
You will trounce newer players with death magic, there is no doubt. But experienced players know how to defend it. While PSun drastically hurts certain armies, it does not really score points on its own, unless you get lucky with some bad rolls by the opponent. I personally do not think the hit is worth it, especially when the lore really only punishes three main tournament armies out there. Dwarves will simply shoot you up before you can get close enough to cause them real harm and Ogres will hellheart you on the turn you commit to it. That leaves Nurgle Daemons, which rarely come mono god (unless you are like my wife or I and a faction purist) and the smart armies are bringing flame cannon grinders to the table that will eat your Sister Bus alive. I am not saying Death is a bad lore, but most of the good players (the ones you need to beat round 4 or 5 to podium) know how to defend it, so the comp hit is too much for it.

[Phil Rossiter]

I don't think I've ever had a lvl4 sniped by a war machine. Perhaps because I've always had juicier targets for them to shoot! But with a 4+ Ward and Look out Sir it seems very bad luck. Of course, this is another reason to take a second level 4...

WE's are probably the best army in the game vs Organ guns because we can sit outside 30" and just pick stuff off. Doom Divers are OK but not deadly like they are vs knight buses and such. RBT are a fair fight. Whereas a Star Dragon with a unit-destroying template flying around the backfield is a more immediate issue IMHO.

Wild Riders are fantastic but they aren't going to get the charge unless flyers want them to. Against WoC characters, Phoenixes or Star Dragon say they will bounce. Unless a buff goes off and that depends on IF or drawing the scroll. The Unicorn I have no experience of but again, how does she charge a flyer?

[Phazael]

She is M10 swift. You set up your army with defense in depth and several counter charges. The minute the Dragon closes in to prepare a breath, you should have something able to counter charge it. If it hangs back, pepper either it or something more juicy with true flight. When you do get the sacrificial charge, focus on the Dragon if its with Wild Riders or the Rider if anything else. Either one going down means the model either croaks right there or is going to go down to something else later. I recently played against a three dragon list with the Unicorn girl and she actually racked up two on charges, thanks in part to using suicide wild rider charges to pick off the rider first. Racking up protection counters is actually super easy to do, because I almost exclusively select easy to cast spells so with a modest 8 dice phase (especially if I sit in the woods) I can reliably cast all four spells a turn, which means two are likely getting through. No one is blowing an early scroll on Apotheosis on an unwounded unit on turn one. On average, she usually has about five or six counters before she ever sees combat.

When it comes down to it, I really run my wood elves like I used to run my Bretts. Put ranged pressure on people until they break formation and use superior movement and MSU tactics to pounce on isolated combat units. I think the biggest failing of many WE players is a lack of sufficient commitment to the close combat phase, honestly. With the kind of movement (and ranged pressure) woodies bring to the table, they can really dictate the fight wherever they choose, so its really a shame that most people just try to use the run and gun approach 90% of the time. Its also a major reason I so strongly advocate true flight. Being able to swiftly eliminate any competition in the movement and shooting phase really saddles the opponent with tough choices. Tanking the high point unkillable murder machines with the Unicorn is a major element in that strategy. Being able to move around constantly and not have my ranged output impeded is another.

I guess the base point is that I make strong use of the Unicorn to contain major threats that the army cannot otherwise cope with. Most unkillable threats can simply be avoided in favor of easier targets. In the case of a model like a Star Dragon, I usually try to pick off the rider with random stray shots or a suicide wild rider charge first, to lower the damage output and remove the LD advantage. But in my experience, it usually takes a star dragon three turns to become a credible threat. Without a rider, the Unicorn needs roughly 10 total counters to survive the second half of the game, assuming no outside assistance, which is very feasible at that point in the game. Meanwhile, the rest of my army can usually mop up a High Elf army in short order, particularly one I remove their shooters with true flight and small units. The same sort of principle applies to things like Nurgle DP or a phoenix, except you need even less counters to run out the clock. When you consider the fact that the Sisters (or the Unicorn itself) can also heal wounds, it really becomes fairly ridiculous in a hurry. Toss in a random Arcane Unforging, and you can really make things uncomfortable for the opponent. Most of this comes down to being diligent with positioning units in the movement phase, which (imo) is what this army and WH in general should be about. Obviously, if you are not up to snuff in the movement phase, none of this is going to work for you.

[Aezeal]

Most of the things you cite as problematic and are trying to deal with shooting are really best dealt with by one of two things:

1) Unicorn- Flank, maybe horn pushes a wound, and charge. You win combat by three. That sends most single model units packing by itself. When dealing with one rank units or chariots, I sneak her behind the ranks and abuse the hell out of her protection counters. She is also a masterful war machine killer for similar reasons.

2) Suicide Wild Riders- Seriously, these guys will obliterate enemy armor if you send them in. Even when they get wiped out, what remains is easily scooped up by a few random TF or WW shots. The six packs, at least, are a big fire and forget missile designed to cripple various high armor or toughness threats.

Of late, I have also been dorking around with a Dragon Lord packing the Obsidian Blade, which has been surprisingly effective, but the first two options are more reliable.

@Q10-
Small WW units can chip knights down for the wild riders or mob up the remainders of a suicide charge. They can also double as war machine hunters. Finally, they can (when small) function as sacrificial blockers to enemy vanguard. A lot of times, opponents will leave small units alone in the face of a Wild Rider unit, but a large unit will always draw attention for its value and have issues with maneuvering. A small unit can also support the enemy infantry shots with double tapping quite effectively. Basically, my take on wood elves is that the characters and large archery units need to live and the rest of the army is expendable, so I don't like the large unit.

As for the BSB, I know you may not favor this, but I mount mine on a Stag. Its great for soft scores and it makes it a small combat unit in its own right, particularly when working in tandem with the Unicorn. It also lets you move his radius to where it will do the most good. Worst case scenario, you can join him with the Unicorn to share protection counters if needed (and MR). The downside is that the comp hit for what he does is a little big, but he does bring a lot to the table if you are practiced with him. Until I got on my dragon kick recently, he was also my only fighting character.

As for the scouts, I see several alternative options. Five man Sisters units make great escorts for the Wild Riders and excellent monster/war machine hunters. They also supplement your magic phase. War Hawks carry a much smaller comp cost and do a lot of the same things, plus they are one of the most overlooked units in the entire army book. Additional small WW units are also a good choice, because if you are taking the scout hit for 18 point models, why not pay 2 more per and get WW? Another option I have seen used to great effect are Branch Wraiths. A couple of these gives you a good shot at having Dwellers, plus they make excellent chaff while providing terror defense for your archer units. Finally, there are the extremely comp friendly Glade Riders. They suck on the surface, but also have a good role as late game fortitude or objective claimers. Their main problem (ambush) becomes a boon if they come in too late for the enemy to divert attention to them.

Re: Death Mages-
You will trounce newer players with death magic, there is no doubt. But experienced players know how to defend it. While PSun drastically hurts certain armies, it does not really score points on its own, unless you get lucky with some bad rolls by the opponent. I personally do not think the hit is worth it, especially when the lore really only punishes three main tournament armies out there. Dwarves will simply shoot you up before you can get close enough to cause them real harm and Ogres will hellheart you on the turn you commit to it. That leaves Nurgle Daemons, which rarely come mono god (unless you are like my wife or I and a faction purist) and the smart armies are bringing flame cannon grinders to the table that will eat your Sister Bus alive. I am not saying Death is a bad lore, but most of the good players (the ones you need to beat round 4 or 5 to podium) know how to defend it, so the comp hit is too much for it.

I play completely differently

1. To me it seems sending a uni rider to the enemy makes it a vulnerable in enemy lines.

2. I agree WR are fire and forget.. BUT I keep them behind my lines and try to intercept enemies that get close.. I don't go towards enemy lines (at least not as long as they have ANY shooting left).

I don't think WW are good warmachine hunters, at least not compared to HB scouts. I'd use them if I needed to get a final wound on a machine ofc.. but I'd not put them on the table for that purpose.

I've not tried sisters as machine hunters.. but scouts are scouts (positioning probably better) and longer ranged AND cheaper. I'll get back to the sisters after the next point. You mention warhawks as warmachine hunters.. and I totally agree they can work (and to me it's their primary role. BUT when the enemy packs it's army tightly with the machine in the middle the warhawks have a hard time reaching the machine (they can end up in charge range of enemy units). The same goes for sisters but even worse.. sisters need room between the enemies to actually reach the machines.

And most importantly: you say you want the large archery units to live.. while I usually end up giving mostly my 34 core archers (for 2000 points that is) and try to preserve the rest. GG are not going to evade enemies unless you keep putting chaff in front of the unit. I prefer just NOT doing that and letting them kill the unit of 160 points The enemy will then be vulnerable for countercharge.. or at least 1-2 turns unable to charge much if they had to pursue to kill them.

[Phazael]

Well, here is how I make stuff work:

Unicorn Girl- With M10, she can pretty much go engage perimeter units in complete safety. If you set her up to counter charge, other units like the Wild riders can threaten anyone who wants to jump in. Usually, though, its get some counters and sneak into the backfield. If someone wants to castle, then great I will just burn some stuff down with trueflight and take the minor win.

5 Man WW- With their small footprint, it is really hard to keep them out unless you castle. If you castle, then trueflight is going to burn stuff down for at least a minor win. If some one comes not to play, I have no problem obliging them.

Protectiong Large GG units- I typically run a large roadblock of EG in a Venomthicket that my TF unit(s) fire behind from. Anything advancing past the wild riders then has to concern itself with other chaff bits I have. Finally, if I ever get off a single Walk in the magic phase, odds are no one is getting to the TF GG unit in the course of the game. Plus, if you actually take the fight to the enemy, they simply never make it to those larger units with anything that can credibly threaten them (generally).

But yeah, out playstyles are pretty opposite. Part of that is most likely our soft scores encouraging a method of play that amounts to more than "I roll some shots and you scoop some models" and my brain really isn't wired for a total sellout to shoot and scoot, due to years of playing Chaos armies. Most of how I play woodies comes from the couple years I ran Bretts, though. The same concepts and tactics that worked for me with Bretts, mid 8th, have worked even better for woodies. I can see the tradeoffs, though. Your style definitely has an easier time against 40k Dwarves and likely Skaven. Mine is probably a little more successful against Chaos and Elves, but falls absolutely flat against Nurgle DoC.

[Beragon]

Phazael, I'd really like to see a typical list you use. I've recently come to really liking the Highweaver on unicorn, last tourney I went to, I did not lose her once in 5 games (in fact, they're the only games I've ever fielded her). However, I know that I'm not getting the most out of her yet. She did manage to single-handedly take down a wounded HP Abomination (which charged her turn 5 or 6), a unit of trolls (flank-charged them and they were split from their General's LD), and a war machine (the only model I could manage to get safely in my opponents' backfield). Opponent's stopped trying to target her mid-game when they realized her 2+ ward vs magic spells and her tokens made her nearly immune to the weapons they could target her with.

[Phazael]

I recently started up my warhammer blog again. Every army I have used since I think Paca this past year is up there. I know I put up my list from the last Alamo on this site someplace. Bear in mind that I have been using a dragon lately, which I consider sub par, as well as eagles to give my army some boost in comp and appearance scores, but my more recent concepts are all outlined. At some point I plan on being sober enough to take detailed pictures. I don't want to clutter up the thread anymore than I already have with that information, but I would be happy to discuss it. I think there are several things in this thread that probably merit their own threads, actually.

phazael.blogspot.com

[Yuri]

I'm looking at the SAC 16 rules. And, as it seems I like to follow global fashion, I am thinking of mounting the spellweaver on my unicorn.
Now, as it seems, if I bring the unikhorne, cost for unit of 6 sisters of the thorn jumps up to whooping -24 for that unit because uni has MR2 rule. Quick question: is that correct? If it is, I think that's too much because everything else is also heavily comped. But I'm not complaining. I can live without sisters or unicorn.

[Aezeal]

When I looked at the swedish comp I always had the feeling some armies (at least WE) get comped way to heavily.

[Q10fanatic]

Yes, they get comped really hard. It's to discourage the elite Mage bus. Funnily enough, Wild Riders have similar wording but the MR has to be from the Obsidian Lodestone, not just generic MR.

I played a few games without sisters and decided they were worth the comp hit to me. They're a unique support unit. Practice with and without them and see which you like.

Edit: corrected myself on the WR/MR rule.

[Bogi]

Re: Death Mages-
You will trounce newer players with death magic, there is no doubt. But experienced players know how to defend it. While PSun drastically hurts certain armies, it does not really score points on its own, unless you get lucky with some bad rolls by the opponent. I personally do not think the hit is worth it, especially when the lore really only punishes three main tournament armies out there. Dwarves will simply shoot you up before you can get close enough to cause them real harm and Ogres will hellheart you on the turn you commit to it. That leaves Nurgle Daemons, which rarely come mono god (unless you are like my wife or I and a faction purist) and the smart armies are bringing flame cannon grinders to the table that will eat your Sister Bus alive. I am not saying Death is a bad lore, but most of the good players (the ones you need to beat round 4 or 5 to podium) know how to defend it, so the comp hit is too much for it.

Place her in a wild rider bus with MR3. The sisters cost too much points and also comp points. The purple sun has a relatively happy range even from the front, yes its better from close but who care, if it does not go thorugh it will prevent their movement. It kills dwarfs very fast and effectively, if there are no machines left then you wont get shot. I played dwarfs many times and the game revolves usually around a 4+, will he manage to spell break your sun, otherwise its fine. I will not go through the army by army basis, but death is just amazing, especially at sweedish when the power of death can be brought full against comped lists. I have taken it successfully and I recommend you to try it as well.

[Bogi]

Sorry for double post, I feel WE are lucky in the Swe comp.

Swe does one thing well and that is restrict the best things in each book, is there enough consideration for other choices and their viability? Not sure, but WE dont take a huge hit on GR or GG to a certain amount. Expensive characters and shooting pulls some funny, but strong, high point lists coming from the WE book. Comparing to other lists, it seems WE have it nicely, as long as you dont take way watchers or too many wild riders/fast cav.

[Aezeal]

Well I have to admit I don't play swedish so I'll have to take your word for it. But I read every battle report posted here and multiple times I've seen powerfull build with other armies where I was thinking where is the comp in that (I can't remember it all but I seem to recall an OnG list with TONS of artillery etc). But maybe other armies get comped harder and it's not so bad for the WE, as I said I don't have any real experience with it.

[Phazael]

Mass Archery, Sister Bus, Scout Spam, Wild Rider Spam
Basically, you get to pick two things off of that list if you want a high comp score or three if you want a medium score. Loophole units include Eternal Guard, Branch Wraiths, Warhawk Riders, and Treemen. All are ridiculously undercosted in the system for what they do. If you stay away from their irrational hatred of small Sister units, its childishly easy to get a good score with wood elves. Really, only 40k Dwarves, Night Goblin Gunline, and Tomb Kings can make stronger 14 comp lists. Its basically criminal how weak a 14 comp Ogre or Vamp army is to what you can make in those lists.

As for the Sisters, if you are running the Unicorn, the hit is way too big to take them at all in the army, unless you are comfortable playing in the 10 range of the banding. As much as I love my 5 pack units, having the system penalize you to the point where a 5 man Sister unit costs what a Greater Daemon does, which is ridiculous. Outside of that one thing (and SisterStars), though, Wood Elves get a huge pass in the system. The comp hits are probably too low for a number of units in the game. Taking a look at some of my softie lists, I could pull the dragon out and replace it with more archers and fast cavalry and still max out the system.

@Bogi-
That's totally true if your meta is light on elves. In any meta with elves or other light shooting armies (say TK or Empire), those fast cavalry busses die way too fast and death magic is almost entirely useless against an elf shooting line. You will crush a couple armies outright, but get murdered in the mirror match. So, its a good build for getting to 3-2 or 4-1 in an elf light meta, but hit one empire gunline or another elf player who invested in a decent amount of archery and you are in for a rough game. As a general caution, I think you are also going to see more DoC players doing what I do and running dual Flame Cannon Soul Grinders, which really dorks over most Wood Elf evasion builds. I also, based on personal experience, think that SisterStar auto-loses to non Sister based Wood Elf builds. Unrelated to Swedish, it is also very aggravating to play against and can lower soft scores in non-Swedish environments, so I am adverse to playing it.

I know it is a strong build, but I think it is not one that puts a player over the top, partially due to its limitations and partially due to people being very familiar with it as the Wood Elf Net Build of choice. In 5 GTs I have attended in the last year with the Wood Elf book and various Unicorn related builds, Sister Star has never been the top placing Wood Elf build. Its usually been my list with any Sister Star setups being a ways back. In fact, Justin Rusk (Rhuell) is the only guy I have seen actually crack the top 10% with that build and he is one of the best players I know.

So my basic advice to someone considering the SisterStar build would be this: If you actually enjoy playing that build, then go for it and practice with it a lot. It will get you three wins at a GT, but you will not be able to get by the later rounds unless you are an exceptional player (like Rhuell). If you are just playing the build to get wins, its time to explore options that people are not as familiar with. I am not saying everyone needs to run the unicorn, but taking things people don't see every time they face Wood Elves and getting practiced with those elements will get better results than taking a strong setup that everyone already has seen a bunch of times. That concept applies to more armies than just wooodies.

[Aezeal]

Thanks for the information Phazeal.
Can chaos roll with the 1++ BSB or the 3++ DP? Can DE use the twilightcloak? And HE the banner of all magic dies?

[Phazael]

A chaos player can pack as many as two flying lord choices with the 3++ save and still hit higher comp, provided he does not combine it with the rerolling 1s ability. If the rest of his list is fairly weak and tame, he might even hit 13 or so. The HE I Win Banner gets comped super hard (as it should), however. The unicorn (and arcane unforging) are my main answers to the chaos list. The HE Banner generally does not bother me, because I either chaff it out or (in the case of knights) use a combination of WW or Unforge to address it. And let me tell you, HE really hate having that crutch kicked out from underneath them. They hate having a non magical multishot sniper drill the wizards they hide in it even more.

[Aezeal]

hmm 2x 3++ is pretty nasty how the hell can that be allowed? Though the reroll able 1+ might be even more annoying.

WR(who don't have magical attacks unlike my HE opponent thought because not forest spirit) like the banner of the die tons of non magical attacks banner too I've found out.

ACtually the most annoying thing for the WE comp is that WW count for 2 shots. I'd not mind the rest but making WW (who I need) count as 2 shots mean I hardly can bring enough GG.