Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
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- Woollymammoth
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Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Durthu has a lot of hidden rules and there is a lot more than meets the eye.
OFFENCE
Durthu is very powerful in melee:
+7 Magical Attacks (Frenzy) that are magical (Forest Spirit) which Re-roll to Hit (Hatred)
+D6 Strength 6 Stomps (non-magical)
A Lamentation of Despairs:
Unfortunately, instead of powerful D6+1 S5 shooting that a Treeman/Ancient can take, they gave him 2D6 strength 2 Killing blow attacks.
+ With 7BS, he can move 5", multi-shot, Fire 12" and still have 3+ To Hit.
+ Any 6s rolled To Wound will ignore armor saves vs Calvary, Infantry & War Beasts
- You will only roll one 6 on average
- Killing Blow is nearly useless otherwise, unless for some crazy reason you're in range of an Infantry/Calvary Character that's not in a unit, which is very rare.
Tree Whack:
Given the power of his attacks, you wouldn't really consider using this. Maybe if you're up against a monster with low I and high T and/or armor. This sounds like an awesome ability to take out Calvary until you read "Single Model". It's actually a great option against another S5/T6 monster with low I (for Treeman/Ancient, probably not Durthu).
Challenges:
Durthu is a character, therefore he can challenge. In most cases this will come into effect when fighting a unit with both a character and champion. Once you challenge, they may:
Decline: You can now send their character to the back, greatly weakening the unit. You then have an opportunity to cause several wounds. You might force a break and run the unit (and character) down, but note that they will be steadfast unless disrupted (and you cannot disrupt). The only time this is risky is if they have a huge SCR, but worse case they beat you and you have to break on 10Ld (Stubborn).
Accept with Champion: You can obliterate their champion and likely get +5 overkill while taking little to no damage.
Accept with Character: There's not many characters that can stand up to Durthu, especially if there vulnerable to T-stomps. The important part is that now their entire unit is rendered useless, as you're in a challenge.
MAGIC
He's a wizard, which adds one more channeling roll. LV1 1 Beast means you will probably take Wildform, but there is a bit of randomness each game if you want to take PIP, Amber Spear, or Savage Beast of Horros. Everything cost one less to cast on himself due to Lore Attribute, and he has +1 to cast in a forest (BotA) so its pretty easy for him to cast spells despite being level 1. Still, Wildform is potent for both strength and defense for him or any melee unit in range.
DEFENSE
- 3+/6++ (Forest Spirit) is a nice defense, but not great for your general.
- Flammable is terrible, although you need a powerful fire hit to even hit him. Goblins with flaming banner bows won't do the trick.
- 6W is not enough, but befitting of all monsters his size.
- Terror may be useful
Base Size
Offense
The fact that you can make him turning toward the small end of the base is significant. This means less attacks on you, while your attacks are basically unhindered. You can place him sideways to start if you are afraid of cannons, then pivot to start moving.
Defense
Its a little hard to hit him. Anything but a Direct Hit will scatter mostly off and even so he can weather off a S5 Helcannon shot pretty easily. You need a S10 Direct Hit to really hurt him. Vs 1 Helcannon I wouldn't be afraid, but with any warmachine heavy army its always a risk. Don't forget that we have the fastest army in the game though. If you're not blasted off the table on turn 1, you can fairly easily tie down warmachines by turn 2.
Army General
18" IP with 10Ld is very nice and will be often be useful.
Point Cost
385 is not much. The important thing is that you can still fit in a level 4 Spellweaver. (How about a Lifeweaver healing his wounds?)
Summary
The new treemen are some of the most gorgeous models put out by GW. They make a beautiful centerpiece to WE armies. Unfortunately they lack both the speed and ranged prowess of the majority of other units and overall play style. Combined with the warmachine-favoring rules of 8th, they are often left out. They do, however, fill the need for a high strength battering ram, but due to the flammable special rule become useless against half the monsters in the game (flame breath, K'dai Destroyer, etc.)
I'm interested in trying a Durthu List. Does anyone have any interesting feedback or experiences with Durthu?
(I searched the boards for this and all the info regarding Durthu is mixed into broad, unrelated or pre-book speculation topics)
OFFENCE
Durthu is very powerful in melee:
+7 Magical Attacks (Frenzy) that are magical (Forest Spirit) which Re-roll to Hit (Hatred)
+D6 Strength 6 Stomps (non-magical)
A Lamentation of Despairs:
Unfortunately, instead of powerful D6+1 S5 shooting that a Treeman/Ancient can take, they gave him 2D6 strength 2 Killing blow attacks.
+ With 7BS, he can move 5", multi-shot, Fire 12" and still have 3+ To Hit.
+ Any 6s rolled To Wound will ignore armor saves vs Calvary, Infantry & War Beasts
- You will only roll one 6 on average
- Killing Blow is nearly useless otherwise, unless for some crazy reason you're in range of an Infantry/Calvary Character that's not in a unit, which is very rare.
Tree Whack:
Given the power of his attacks, you wouldn't really consider using this. Maybe if you're up against a monster with low I and high T and/or armor. This sounds like an awesome ability to take out Calvary until you read "Single Model". It's actually a great option against another S5/T6 monster with low I (for Treeman/Ancient, probably not Durthu).
Challenges:
Durthu is a character, therefore he can challenge. In most cases this will come into effect when fighting a unit with both a character and champion. Once you challenge, they may:
Decline: You can now send their character to the back, greatly weakening the unit. You then have an opportunity to cause several wounds. You might force a break and run the unit (and character) down, but note that they will be steadfast unless disrupted (and you cannot disrupt). The only time this is risky is if they have a huge SCR, but worse case they beat you and you have to break on 10Ld (Stubborn).
Accept with Champion: You can obliterate their champion and likely get +5 overkill while taking little to no damage.
Accept with Character: There's not many characters that can stand up to Durthu, especially if there vulnerable to T-stomps. The important part is that now their entire unit is rendered useless, as you're in a challenge.
MAGIC
He's a wizard, which adds one more channeling roll. LV1 1 Beast means you will probably take Wildform, but there is a bit of randomness each game if you want to take PIP, Amber Spear, or Savage Beast of Horros. Everything cost one less to cast on himself due to Lore Attribute, and he has +1 to cast in a forest (BotA) so its pretty easy for him to cast spells despite being level 1. Still, Wildform is potent for both strength and defense for him or any melee unit in range.
DEFENSE
- 3+/6++ (Forest Spirit) is a nice defense, but not great for your general.
- Flammable is terrible, although you need a powerful fire hit to even hit him. Goblins with flaming banner bows won't do the trick.
- 6W is not enough, but befitting of all monsters his size.
- Terror may be useful
Base Size
Offense
The fact that you can make him turning toward the small end of the base is significant. This means less attacks on you, while your attacks are basically unhindered. You can place him sideways to start if you are afraid of cannons, then pivot to start moving.
Defense
Its a little hard to hit him. Anything but a Direct Hit will scatter mostly off and even so he can weather off a S5 Helcannon shot pretty easily. You need a S10 Direct Hit to really hurt him. Vs 1 Helcannon I wouldn't be afraid, but with any warmachine heavy army its always a risk. Don't forget that we have the fastest army in the game though. If you're not blasted off the table on turn 1, you can fairly easily tie down warmachines by turn 2.
Army General
18" IP with 10Ld is very nice and will be often be useful.
Point Cost
385 is not much. The important thing is that you can still fit in a level 4 Spellweaver. (How about a Lifeweaver healing his wounds?)
Summary
The new treemen are some of the most gorgeous models put out by GW. They make a beautiful centerpiece to WE armies. Unfortunately they lack both the speed and ranged prowess of the majority of other units and overall play style. Combined with the warmachine-favoring rules of 8th, they are often left out. They do, however, fill the need for a high strength battering ram, but due to the flammable special rule become useless against half the monsters in the game (flame breath, K'dai Destroyer, etc.)
I'm interested in trying a Durthu List. Does anyone have any interesting feedback or experiences with Durthu?
(I searched the boards for this and all the info regarding Durthu is mixed into broad, unrelated or pre-book speculation topics)
Last edited by Woollymammoth on 04 Sep 2014, 15:23, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Listen to the dimensional cascade podcasts. Episode 9 and/or 10 has him fighting another named character. It's in the Outer Fields section.
- Baardah
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
He featured in a couple of pit fights in the dimensional cascade podcast. He crushed golgfag maneater without a sweat, but died to flaming attacks from settra the imperishable in the next round, but in afterthought he did so because the player chose to tree whack instead of regular attacks on turn 2 or something. He would have smashed him otherwise I think.
My summer night wood elves
Drstrangelove wrote:Imagine a magic item. For 20 points you get +4M, Vanguard, extra +1 to your armour save, unlimited free reforms, and an extra S3 attack at I4.
That item would be in every list.
That item is a horse...
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
A couple of things to point out:Woollymammoth wrote:+7 Magical Attacks (Frenzy) that are magical (Forest Spirit) which always Re-roll to Hit & Wound (Hatred)
+D6 Strength 6 magical Stomps
1) I don't know where you are getting "always Re-roll to Hit & Wound". Hatred is reroll To Hit only, and only in the first round of combat. Never does he get to reroll his To Wound rolls.
2) See the following FAQ on Stomp:
"Q: Do Stomp or Thunderstomp hits benefit from any other special
rules, equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits?
(p76)
A: No."
This means your TStomps are non magical, as "Magical Attacks" is a special rule.
- Woollymammoth
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
I see, they got cute with the wording for Hatred. "Re-rolls all misses in first round of combat".
I'm used to playing against chaos, which specifically states that the stomps of a demon are magical.
I guess they didn't feel like making our spirits have magical stomps. If they claw you with their hands that's magical (Treeman, Dryads, Treekin) If they kick you with their hooves or bash you with their head or horns that's magical (great stag, unicorn) If they bite you, that's magical (dragon)
So their head, hands, teeth and hooves are magical, but not their feet? This is obviously an oversight. That FAQ was written to explain, for example, how a Juggernaut of Khorne has "Murderous Charge" which is +1 strength if it charges, representing the extra force behind its attack, but would not affect it stepping on you at the end of battle. Since its a "special rule" they had to include that line, but when you compare it to the Forest Spirit rules it doesn't make any sense. Or maybe they deliberately ignored it so that a treeman can cause D6 stomps against a Banner of the World Dragon.
I'll look up that podcast
I'm used to playing against chaos, which specifically states that the stomps of a demon are magical.
I guess they didn't feel like making our spirits have magical stomps. If they claw you with their hands that's magical (Treeman, Dryads, Treekin) If they kick you with their hooves or bash you with their head or horns that's magical (great stag, unicorn) If they bite you, that's magical (dragon)
So their head, hands, teeth and hooves are magical, but not their feet? This is obviously an oversight. That FAQ was written to explain, for example, how a Juggernaut of Khorne has "Murderous Charge" which is +1 strength if it charges, representing the extra force behind its attack, but would not affect it stepping on you at the end of battle. Since its a "special rule" they had to include that line, but when you compare it to the Forest Spirit rules it doesn't make any sense. Or maybe they deliberately ignored it so that a treeman can cause D6 stomps against a Banner of the World Dragon.
I'll look up that podcast
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Hah, ya, it's a pretty well known fact that when GW writes a rule, they don't consider all the other rules they wrote that relate to it.
Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
I would argue that the stomps for forest spirits are magic. It says attacks. And it's not like treekin are using magic swords or anything.
- Woollymammoth
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
The podcast is great - I'm totally hooked. Always love a good Warhammer perspective. Really great rule breakdowns, future release rumors and fresh army ideas.
FYI - SINGLE UNITS & MOVEMENT, REDIRECTION
1. Firstly, you use the full model instead of a "first rank" when attempting to redirect a monster: Whereas a unit gets redirected sideways in this case and subsequently reforms for a gain of 1", the monster can charge the flank and overrun to move a good distance forward.
Pg 21:
In this unit, three out of the five Goblins in the front rank are in the Dwarfs' flank, so the unit charges into the flank.
2. Another point, is that single models can pivot freely during movement: Whereas units waste a lot of movement pivoting, units can move freely
Pg 27:
LONE MODELS AND MOVEMENT
Units that consist of a single model, such as monsters, chariots, lone characters or sole survivors of annihilated units, are mostly moved the same as other units. They move, wheel and march just like a larger unit. The one exception is that a single model can pivot on the spot as many times as it wishes over the course of its move. It can do so without penalty and so pivoting does not prevent models from marching, or even from shooting later in the turn. This represents the greater freedom of movement that an individual creature enjoys over its fellows in a ranked-up and disciplined unit - although a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting and so on.
FYI - SINGLE UNITS & MOVEMENT, REDIRECTION
1. Firstly, you use the full model instead of a "first rank" when attempting to redirect a monster: Whereas a unit gets redirected sideways in this case and subsequently reforms for a gain of 1", the monster can charge the flank and overrun to move a good distance forward.
Pg 21:
In this unit, three out of the five Goblins in the front rank are in the Dwarfs' flank, so the unit charges into the flank.
2. Another point, is that single models can pivot freely during movement: Whereas units waste a lot of movement pivoting, units can move freely
Pg 27:
LONE MODELS AND MOVEMENT
Units that consist of a single model, such as monsters, chariots, lone characters or sole survivors of annihilated units, are mostly moved the same as other units. They move, wheel and march just like a larger unit. The one exception is that a single model can pivot on the spot as many times as it wishes over the course of its move. It can do so without penalty and so pivoting does not prevent models from marching, or even from shooting later in the turn. This represents the greater freedom of movement that an individual creature enjoys over its fellows in a ranked-up and disciplined unit - although a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting and so on.
Last edited by Woollymammoth on 06 Aug 2014, 16:00, edited 2 times in total.
- uberjay
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
I took him to midlands GT with the sisters of twilight on a dragon. He single handedly walked through an entire OnG and VC army, won those games 20-0 and 18-2 then he got cannoned off in one and purple sunned in another. He is a combat monster! well worth the points and you can usually still fit a lvl3 with a scroll in.
Jay hop
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- Woollymammoth
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Durthu has I2? That's lame. I hope he was purped late game for you.
So a dispel is mandatory, but I'd probably take a lvl4 shadoweaver (hidden in some sisters), and lvl2 lifesinger with the scroll backing Durthu up.
Were you backing him up with a life wiz? What strategies were working for you? I recently tried my first game with a treeman and I got him pinned down in the center of battle and destroyed before he could take a swing.
So a dispel is mandatory, but I'd probably take a lvl4 shadoweaver (hidden in some sisters), and lvl2 lifesinger with the scroll backing Durthu up.
Were you backing him up with a life wiz? What strategies were working for you? I recently tried my first game with a treeman and I got him pinned down in the center of battle and destroyed before he could take a swing.
Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
I gave him a try in a recent game. (its in the battle reports section on video). Here are my thoughts.
1) Shooting-The shooting attack is fluffy but effectively useless. The only use is an occasional stand and shoot or to pick off chaff cavalry that you don't want to charge.
2) Magic- The level 1 beasts wizard thing is AWESOME. It not only guarantees you a wyssans, but if you get lucky he can nab a Savage Beasts. You no longer have to worry about being out of range with your character buff spells. (also he is a monster so always get the discount) Its also rather funny to miscast while in combat and nuke units your fighting
3) Combat-In combat, he is nigh unstoppable. WS7 and 7 attacks will make even DPs nervous. However, any large unit with Great Weapons or S6 can and will grind him out over time.
4) Cost- He seems pricy, but you get ALOT for the points. If you consider that you are getting a level 1 spellsinger in the deal then you are only really paying 305pts for the guy. Furthermore, his cost still allows for a level 4 with a small arcane item or horse. This is huge as in the past we always had to choose between a Fighty Lord and a Spellweaver, at least at 2500pt levels.
HOWEVER, in an army that frequently wins by points denial, a smart opponent will dump EVERYTHING they have into taking him down. With the Dead General bonus, he can give up 485 points and make your game waaaayy harder to win.
1) Shooting-The shooting attack is fluffy but effectively useless. The only use is an occasional stand and shoot or to pick off chaff cavalry that you don't want to charge.
2) Magic- The level 1 beasts wizard thing is AWESOME. It not only guarantees you a wyssans, but if you get lucky he can nab a Savage Beasts. You no longer have to worry about being out of range with your character buff spells. (also he is a monster so always get the discount) Its also rather funny to miscast while in combat and nuke units your fighting
3) Combat-In combat, he is nigh unstoppable. WS7 and 7 attacks will make even DPs nervous. However, any large unit with Great Weapons or S6 can and will grind him out over time.
4) Cost- He seems pricy, but you get ALOT for the points. If you consider that you are getting a level 1 spellsinger in the deal then you are only really paying 305pts for the guy. Furthermore, his cost still allows for a level 4 with a small arcane item or horse. This is huge as in the past we always had to choose between a Fighty Lord and a Spellweaver, at least at 2500pt levels.
HOWEVER, in an army that frequently wins by points denial, a smart opponent will dump EVERYTHING they have into taking him down. With the Dead General bonus, he can give up 485 points and make your game waaaayy harder to win.
- Woollymammoth
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Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
I brought him my first WE blowout but he didn't do anything but despair. Wildform is a bit expensive but def the best spell (cast augments in combat). Not sure of his value yet, might be better to just go with a Standard Treeman.
Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Cannot stand and shoot...he's immune to psycologyLandonElf wrote:I gave him a try in a recent game. (its in the battle reports section on video). Here are my thoughts.
1) Shooting-The shooting attack is fluffy but effectively useless. The only use is an occasional stand and shoot or to pick off chaff cavalry that you don't want to charge.
Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Yes, you can. The rulebook says you can't flee. Standing and shooting is legal.Hflord wrote:Cannot stand and shoot...he's immune to psycologyLandonElf wrote:I gave him a try in a recent game. (its in the battle reports section on video). Here are my thoughts.
1) Shooting-The shooting attack is fluffy but effectively useless. The only use is an occasional stand and shoot or to pick off chaff cavalry that you don't want to charge.
Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Doh, just checked it and you are correct. Thx
Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
No worries. His stand and shoot is just another reason why attacking him is a bad idea. He's pretty awesome.
- Woollymammoth
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
That's awesome, that means Treeman can stand & shoot with their S5 strangleroot as well.
Whether to take Durthu or a Treeman is an interesting decision. In standard 2500 pts, you can take Durthu, and hide a lvl4 Weaver in a sister bus. Already we are talking 3 channels, a way to heal Durthu (via thorns) a way to make Durthu 7/7 or sister bus hav S4 poison javelins (or 4/4 w/ ASF, poison and S5 mounts to surprise with a flank charge).
I have been taking treeman which is interesting but Durthu just packs a much harder punch. The 10" IP is very nice.
Last game, my treeman lost in second round to a Tzeench Demon Prince having scored 2 wounds first combat and dieing before second attack as10 hellriders flanked me and squeezed through the 5th round.
Treeman - 5 S5 attacks, hitting on 4 wounding on 4 so two was pretty decent and I got lucky on the saves.
Durthu - re-rolling to hit with 7 attacks, that's at least 5 his wounding on 3+. With 6 wounds that means I'd have survived to strike again and likely obliterated him. Another interesting point is that I could have challenged the DP, making the Hellriders essentially useless albeit for static combat result.
The main thing to consider is that Durthu is 120 pts more than a Treeman with strangleroot. That's not too bad considering you could spend similar points on a WS with Bow of Loren doing absolutely nothing the whole game with his useless S3, or a unit of 12 dryads. But at the same time, you could never find an opportunity for combat with Durthu, however his channels and IP will likely mean that he contributes something.
Whether to take Durthu or a Treeman is an interesting decision. In standard 2500 pts, you can take Durthu, and hide a lvl4 Weaver in a sister bus. Already we are talking 3 channels, a way to heal Durthu (via thorns) a way to make Durthu 7/7 or sister bus hav S4 poison javelins (or 4/4 w/ ASF, poison and S5 mounts to surprise with a flank charge).
I have been taking treeman which is interesting but Durthu just packs a much harder punch. The 10" IP is very nice.
Last game, my treeman lost in second round to a Tzeench Demon Prince having scored 2 wounds first combat and dieing before second attack as10 hellriders flanked me and squeezed through the 5th round.
Treeman - 5 S5 attacks, hitting on 4 wounding on 4 so two was pretty decent and I got lucky on the saves.
Durthu - re-rolling to hit with 7 attacks, that's at least 5 his wounding on 3+. With 6 wounds that means I'd have survived to strike again and likely obliterated him. Another interesting point is that I could have challenged the DP, making the Hellriders essentially useless albeit for static combat result.
The main thing to consider is that Durthu is 120 pts more than a Treeman with strangleroot. That's not too bad considering you could spend similar points on a WS with Bow of Loren doing absolutely nothing the whole game with his useless S3, or a unit of 12 dryads. But at the same time, you could never find an opportunity for combat with Durthu, however his channels and IP will likely mean that he contributes something.
Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
I think the OP understimates just number of attacks when he says: goblin archers with flaming shot banner won't do anything... they could field like tons of those and he WOULD get hurt.
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Re his base size has everybody made him and their other treemen face the narrow end? I've always assumed that because the model best fits facing the long edge that that is the front of the model?
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
I made my regular Treeman facing the narrower edge, and I would also try to position Durthu to face the narrow side.Wrath_of_the_Wildwood wrote:Re his base size has everybody made him and their other treemen face the narrow end? I've always assumed that because the model best fits facing the long edge that that is the front of the model?
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Thanks Gwill I guess it's my bad I didn't put much thought into the direction when modelling I just wanted to get him together and so just followed the instructions. His head faces back to the narrow end with his sword arm maybe I can claim that hahaGwill_of_the_Woods wrote:I made my regular Treeman facing the narrower edge, and I would also try to position Durthu to face the narrow side.Wrath_of_the_Wildwood wrote:Re his base size has everybody made him and their other treemen face the narrow end? I've always assumed that because the model best fits facing the long edge that that is the front of the model?
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Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
40 gobs with bows are terrible archers. With poison you can easily force them to hit on 7 to negate poison (long range, moving, into forest). With flame same result. They would have to be very lucky to get even 3 wounds, that you save on 3+/6++
I've been running a treeman every game and they tank very well
I've been running a treeman every game and they tank very well
Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. Great job and it generated good feedback.
I think Durthu has a lot to add and will help break out of the All-archer rest-special fast cav mold for people.
I think Durthu has a lot to add and will help break out of the All-archer rest-special fast cav mold for people.
- godswearhats
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Re: Durthu, Eldest of Ancients
Made sticky. LEAF candidate.