To Command or not to Command

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JohnnyH5
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To Command or not to Command

Post by JohnnyH5 »

Having not played Wood Elves since they had chariots and being a Lizardmen player (full command on most of my units) I was wondering if people take full command or any command models in their units.

Here is my thinking on the units that I currently have and unit sizes I plan to game with:

Glade Guard - Unit size 10 - Nil command
Eternal Guard - Unit size 30 - Full command
Deepwood Scouts - Unit size 10 - Nil command
Glade Riders/Wild Riders and Sisters of the Thorn - Unit size 5 each - Nil command
Dryads - Unit size 12 - Nil command
Waywatchers - Unit size 10 - Nil command
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Yuri
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Yuri »

Musician is always a good thing to have. Also, if you're playing Blood and Glory you'll need few banners.
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Beithir Seun
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Beithir Seun »

In general, we don't take many full command units but certain command models are still beneficial, specifically musicians. Depending on how you plan to use them, Glade Guard can benefit hugely from having musicians to allow them to swift reform and still shoot. I never leave home without musicians in my Glade Guard, no matter the unit size.

Glade Riders and Scouts will benefit from having musicians for the +1 Rally bonus. As these units are likely to be up in the enemy's face, you may find yourself fleeing charges quite often. That Rally bonus can really pay dividends (especially on Glade Riders, as Fast Cav).

Wild Riders can similarly benefit from a Musician, although you'll be hoping they won't have to Rally that often :D A Standard Bearer can help them out in combat, and every little bit of CR helps. It gives them the possibility of a magic banner as well. A champion is up to you; it used to be common wisdom that you didn't take a champion in Wild Rider units, but with the rule changes in the new book, it might be more beneficial now. I'd also recommend units of 7 for Wild Riders; it lets them take a couple of casualties without compromising effectiveness, but isn't so large that they become unwieldy.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Findecano »

Beithir Seun wrote: Wild Riders can similarly benefit from a Musician, although you'll be hoping they won't have to Rally that often :D A Standard Bearer can help them out in combat, and every little bit of CR helps. It gives them the possibility of a magic banner as well. A champion is up to you; it used to be common wisdom that you didn't take a champion in Wild Rider units, but with the rule changes in the new book, it might be more beneficial now. I'd also recommend units of 7 for Wild Riders; it lets them take a couple of casualties without compromising effectiveness, but isn't so large that they become unwieldy.
How exactly do Wild riders benefit from a musician?
Of the three advantages a musician gives you, only one is really valid for wild riders and that is the most rarely use
1. +1 CR in the case of a drawn combat (fairly rare situation)
2. +1 Ld to rally: the only time WRs can flee is from a failed break test (since they have itp), and being T3 with fairly mediocre armour if they manage to survive a round of combat where they are losing its a miracle.
3. Swift reform is irrelevent for fast cav.

A standard is a pretty good idea for WRs I might even consider the movement banner on a larger unit to get them up to M10, but I can't see a reason for ever bringing a musician.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by ZT Strike »

Personally I usually wont bring a champion unless he has an extra attack. Musicians will go on units that either reform often or go into combat. Standard Bearers always for combat units. I only give magic banners to archers.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Beithir Seun »

Findecano wrote:
Beithir Seun wrote: Wild Riders can similarly benefit from a Musician, although you'll be hoping they won't have to Rally that often :D A Standard Bearer can help them out in combat, and every little bit of CR helps. It gives them the possibility of a magic banner as well. A champion is up to you; it used to be common wisdom that you didn't take a champion in Wild Rider units, but with the rule changes in the new book, it might be more beneficial now. I'd also recommend units of 7 for Wild Riders; it lets them take a couple of casualties without compromising effectiveness, but isn't so large that they become unwieldy.
How exactly do Wild riders benefit from a musician?
Of the three advantages a musician gives you, only one is really valid for wild riders and that is the most rarely use
1. +1 CR in the case of a drawn combat (fairly rare situation)
2. +1 Ld to rally: the only time WRs can flee is from a failed break test (since they have itp), and being T3 with fairly mediocre armour if they manage to survive a round of combat where they are losing its a miracle.
3. Swift reform is irrelevent for fast cav.
I think you just answered your own question with points 1 and 2. They gain the benefits of the +1 in drawn combats and +1 to Rally should they flee. As Fast Cavalry, they'll be able to move as normal when they do rally, so that musician can come in handy.

What you're *really* asking is whether it's worth taking a musician. If you're really tight for points then trimming command models would be the first place to go to for those few extra points, but otherwise I think all combat units benefit from having a musician.
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Dalsgaard
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Dalsgaard »

Sisters of Thorn in a unit of 8 with weaver and BSB seems to be a staple unit already - standard with lichebone pennant for a sweet 3++ against magic. Maybe a musician because you never want to see combat with these. (Well, maybe some chaff clearing...)
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Polycotton
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Polycotton »

My whole Wood Elf career has been plagued by failed leadership tests so I really dig musicians for the inevitable rally role.

Also +1 to Wood Elves with Chariots. I threw two away recently as they were just taking up space. I converted them from High Elf Chariots back in the day.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by JohnnyH5 »

Thanks for all the great replies, I will definitely take musicians with most of my units now.....
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Wooster Shooster »

I think fluff reasons alone justify taking the musician on wild riders.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by pivole »

Are musicians in my scouts necessary? Mainly, should I be taking flee reactions with them to warrant the 10 points?
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Beithir Seun »

pivole wrote:Are musicians in my scouts necessary? Mainly, should I be taking flee reactions with them to warrant the 10 points?
If Fleeing is beneficial to you, then yes you should be fleeing. It's very rare that you'll *want* a Scout unit in combat. Stand & Shoot is obviously the preferred charge reaction, but it won't always be the best option. If fleeing gives you an advantage then you should use it!

Musicians on Scouts is probably only worth it if you have points left over; they won't benefit from Swift Reforms, you won't want them in combat for the +1 in draws, and with Ld 8, you'll pass 3 out of 4 Rally tests which should see you through most games.
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Andrew
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Andrew »

Always take banners and musicians on everything. You'll never know when it might be useful!

Auto-losing Blood and Glory, or just getting that extra pip in CC or rallying, plus swift reforms and whatnot.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Atrophus »

Wooster Shooster wrote:I think fluff reasons alone justify taking the musician on wild riders.
Exactly, how do you call the hunt without a musician? :D
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OfTheThorn
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by OfTheThorn »

Full command + a Glade Captain on an elven steed pushes my unicorn mage into the second rank of Wild Riders. I'd pay far more than +30 points for that second rank position, +1 attack and +1 combat res.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by LadyLoec »

Atrophus wrote:
Wooster Shooster wrote:I think fluff reasons alone justify taking the musician on wild riders.
Exactly, how do you call the hunt without a musician? :D
So true! Generally I take musicians and banners in most units that can (exception is my smaller unit of GG, which have neither). Banners for B&G, musicians because I think they go well with how I see wood elf battles playing out in my head, ominous horns sounding from an unseen foe or misdirecting the enemy, drums rousing the very forest to wrath. Of course they have all the tactical advantages listed above, but my imagination wins out.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Findecano »

I think you just answered your own question with points 1 and 2. They gain the benefits of the +1 in drawn combats and +1 to Rally should they flee. As Fast Cavalry, they'll be able to move as normal when they do rally, so that musician can come in handy.

What you're *really* asking is whether it's worth taking a musician. If you're really tight for points then trimming command models would be the first place to go to for those few extra points, but otherwise I think all combat units benefit from having a musician.
What I mean is I've literally never had a unit of wildriders flee from combat since the new book came into effect, they hit with 5 attacks each, so 30 rerollable attacks from a unit with only 6 wounds, its generally either win big or get wiped out, you need to experience some really terrible rolling on your WRs attacks to lose combat without losing all your riders.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by OfTheThorn »

Findecano wrote:What I mean is I've literally never had a unit of wildriders flee from combat since the new book came into effect, they hit with 5 attacks each, so 30 rerollable attacks from a unit with only 6 wounds, its generally either win big or get wiped out, you need to experience some really terrible rolling on your WRs attacks to lose combat without losing all your riders.
I don't think the stags get rerolls...?
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Yuri »

6 guys, 30 attacks? You are hiding or missunderstood something.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Drstrangelove »

Yuri wrote:6 guys, 30 attacks? You are hiding or missunderstood something.
6 riders: 1 attack base, +1A for Devastating charge, +1 for Frenzy......3 attacks each. x 6 = 18

6 mounts: 1 attack base, +1A for Frenzy (not the absence of brackets confining Frenzy to the rider).....x5 = 12 attacks.

18 + 12 = 30.
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Yuri
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Yuri »

My bad. Totally forgot about mounts. Sorry! :o
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Findecano »

OfTheThorn wrote:
Findecano wrote:What I mean is I've literally never had a unit of wildriders flee from combat since the new book came into effect, they hit with 5 attacks each, so 30 rerollable attacks from a unit with only 6 wounds, its generally either win big or get wiped out, you need to experience some really terrible rolling on your WRs attacks to lose combat without losing all your riders.
I don't think the stags get rerolls...?
Yeah, my bad, not thinking properly, 18 rerollable S5 and 12 S4 is still something of an avalanche of destruction.
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Shandrakor »

Personally, I don't really see command models being worth bothering on Wild Riders with some minor exceptions. Wild Riders will win big or die in the process most of the time.

The exceptions being:
Champion model if you're expecting nasty characters (challenge one to avoid Wild Rider casualties), but otherwise unnecessary.

Musician is pointless because you'll never tie combat, and they're either dead or won combat otherwise. Fast Cav status auto reforming means the Musician is unnecessary as well.

And finally, Standard Bearer has uses in that you can get +1 for Blood and Glory, a magical standard (though most of the ones that are worth taking aren't particularly important), and +1 to combat result, such that you completely overwhelm your opponent even more in the combat result.

On that note, Wild Riders are kind of an anomaly. They're so hitty already that the command models just don't make much of a difference.

For other units, generally Musicians are a good idea if you put your units in positions where they tend to flee and/or are not Fast Cav / Skirmishing. Standard Bearers on combat units that can stick around (i.e. Eternal Guard), as well as units that won't see combat if you play Blood and Glory. Lastly, Champions on units that need the extra hitting power, as well as for temporary enemy character dampening.
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http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: To Command or not to Command

Post by Blackcat »

In general the only units that get banners are my combat units or glade guard if I want some more banners for blood and glory.

Glade guard are good with only musician and I never give a champion to any thing other than combat units
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