Eternal Guard

Discuss anything related to the Asrai, our forests, or camps around the Old World in here.

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Druwid
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

themidget428 wrote:my 2 cents, I've played 4 games so far with 20 of them and I love em.

First two games i had the bsb in the unit to make them 7x3. you can read about these in the batrep forum but basically in a venom thicket these guys are hoss, and by using ASF to remove a lot of attacks, and being ws5, they're surprisingly resilient with t3 5+.

Last two games I've moved my bsb so i've ran 20 of them 5 wide with the std of discipline. First game they got into combat with sword masters, killed a butload, lost by 1 and I failed my stubborn 10 with an 11, and my bsb was 2" out of range :cry:
I felt confident to atleast neuter the unit before dying the next combat round so that my bows could finish them off. I had to rely on the EG for the heavy lifting as this was the World Dragon unit and my waywatchers were too far away.

Game 2, a Lion chariot and 14 swordmasters charged into a venom thicket with my 20 EG. 21 attacks later, he had 2 sword masters and they ran for about 4 turns until they left the table. The lion chariot being stubborn as well stuck around forever until I poisoned him to death and he narrowed the unit down to about 5 models.

That said, Removing the shields is something I haven't considered doing that I may do in the future if i'm trying to free 20 points or so. Its so negligiable most of the time, and you wonder if the 2 or 3 saves you make over the game is worth the 20 points if you could have gotten an impactful magic item or something.
That's quite surprisingly, didn't expected so much resilience from these guys.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Beithir Seun »

Minsc wrote:If anything, I'd like to discuss if people think it's worth giving them shields at all? When? Why/why not?
Honestly, I don't see any reason *not* to take shields. If it were a choice between taking shields and getting another unit on the table then it might be a different matter, but for 25-30pts it will keep enough EG alive to make the points back over the course of a game.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Joelatron »

For me the argument against shields is this:

2x15 Eternal Guard with Full Command
2x5 Gladeriders with hagbane

total: 610pts

Eternal guard are there simply to hold for 1 round for the wildriders/dragon/other hammer to flank in. 15 are hard to remove in a single round of combat. No need for shields to do that.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by SpanielBear »

Joelatron wrote:For me the argument against shields is this:

2x15 Eternal Guard with Full Command
2x5 Gladeriders with hagbane

total: 610pts

Eternal guard are there simply to hold for 1 round for the wildriders/dragon/other hammer to flank in. 15 are hard to remove in a single round of combat. No need for shields to do that.
True, but the shields can ensure that there are 15 Eternal guard available when it comes to crunch time, not shot away by archers. And what upgrade did you have in mind that requires saving 30 points?

Also, to those that are wondering about the need to force an enemy to fight in a forest, I'd say it is easier than it could be. WE have few enough immobile blocks, almost everything is either scouting, fast cav or flying. If the enemy wants to ear points, he's going to have to hunt down our less mobile troops (especially Glade Guard with their arrow upgrades that may as well have "Points! Tasty points! Get 'em while they're unarmoured!" stencilled on their cloaks).

The forest prowess triggers if at least half the unit is within the wood, so getting a minor castle together of glade guard and eternals is both workable and an almost irresistable target for an enemy. Season with mages to taste, and done.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Joelatron »

There are plenty of things that require a squeeze for 30pts.

When you're also trying to fit in:
3x6 Wildriders: SB, champ with shields
either 5 sisters or a bus (depending on characters)
lvl4 BSB and waystalker(s), or Dragon, 2x2 lvl2s (beast magic) and BSB
scouts so you at least have some shooting!

And that is not even looking at the rare section.

My list philosphy (for all armies - also play Empire and High Elves) is:

Beating stuff in combat for a run down/kill every model > shooting it down to 1 model and getting 0vps for the effort

Wood Elf shooting is now too expensive to rely on (if you ever could) when at the end of the day the above formula will defeat you (especially in a 20-0 system). Eternal guard unlock the ability to beat units in combat to gain VPs. I would LOVE shields, but most of the things you are trying to anchor would ignore the armour anyway (stupid no parry when carrying a spear...)
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

SpanielBear wrote: Also, to those that are wondering about the need to force an enemy to fight in a forest, I'd say it is easier than it could be. WE have few enough immobile blocks, almost everything is either scouting, fast cav or flying. If the enemy wants to ear points, he's going to have to hunt down our less mobile troops (especially Glade Guard with their arrow upgrades that may as well have "Points! Tasty points! Get 'em while they're unarmoured!" stencilled on their cloaks).

The forest prowess triggers if at least half the unit is within the wood, so getting a minor castle together of glade guard and eternals is both workable and an almost irresistable target for an enemy. Season with mages to taste, and done.
GG in woods are definitely a tasty target, which may surprise people, at least at first. But that is what I meant, it is a soft squishy unit who are going to keep shooting you if you don't charge them. The same goes for waywatchers and scouts, who are also stubborn in woods.

Eternal Guard and wildwood rangers are not such tasty targets however. They pack a punch, especially in woods, and what are they going to do if he enemy doesn't charge them? Sit there some more? Terrifying.

If you tie them down to staying in their woods, they can be ignored. By all means try to get your opponent to charge you in the woods, but if they don't go for it, you have to be prepared to bring your combat blocks out of the woods.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

As already said fighting in the woods is quite situational, to me if I can choose between a charge outside a wood and being charged in a wood I choose the first if helps me to stop that unit and exposing them next turn to my wild riders.
Actually I think that shield could be useful against shooting, at least to bring enough models in close combat
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by The Peacemaker »

Coyle_Ravane wrote:
SpanielBear wrote: Also, to those that are wondering about the need to force an enemy to fight in a forest, I'd say it is easier than it could be. WE have few enough immobile blocks, almost everything is either scouting, fast cav or flying. If the enemy wants to ear points, he's going to have to hunt down our less mobile troops (especially Glade Guard with their arrow upgrades that may as well have "Points! Tasty points! Get 'em while they're unarmoured!" stencilled on their cloaks).

The forest prowess triggers if at least half the unit is within the wood, so getting a minor castle together of glade guard and eternals is both workable and an almost irresistable target for an enemy. Season with mages to taste, and done.
GG in woods are definitely a tasty target, which may surprise people, at least at first. But that is what I meant, it is a soft squishy unit who are going to keep shooting you if you don't charge them. The same goes for waywatchers and scouts, who are also stubborn in woods.

Eternal Guard and wildwood rangers are not such tasty targets however. They pack a punch, especially in woods, and what are they going to do if he enemy doesn't charge them? Sit there some more? Terrifying.

If you tie them down to staying in their woods, they can be ignored. By all means try to get your opponent to charge you in the woods, but if they don't go for it, you have to be prepared to bring your combat blocks out of the woods.
How do you force an opponent to charge into the woods?
Answer: with shooting silly!

A big unit of glade guard, or 2 smaller units with the trueflight arrows sitting in a woods. Then you put eternal guard in front of them. Remember you only need half the unit in the woods to get forest stalker.

Considering the above units is going to be like 1000pts total(also good character bunkers), the rest of your army will basically consist of waywatchers and fast cav. If your opponent doesn't go for your unit sitting the woods then they won't get enough points to win.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by SpanielBear »

The Peacemaker wrote:
Coyle_Ravane wrote:
SpanielBear wrote: Also, to those that are wondering about the need to force an enemy to fight in a forest, I'd say it is easier than it could be. WE have few enough immobile blocks, almost everything is either scouting, fast cav or flying. If the enemy wants to ear points, he's going to have to hunt down our less mobile troops (especially Glade Guard with their arrow upgrades that may as well have "Points! Tasty points! Get 'em while they're unarmoured!" stencilled on their cloaks).

The forest prowess triggers if at least half the unit is within the wood, so getting a minor castle together of glade guard and eternals is both workable and an almost irresistable target for an enemy. Season with mages to taste, and done.
GG in woods are definitely a tasty target, which may surprise people, at least at first. But that is what I meant, it is a soft squishy unit who are going to keep shooting you if you don't charge them. The same goes for waywatchers and scouts, who are also stubborn in woods.

Eternal Guard and wildwood rangers are not such tasty targets however. They pack a punch, especially in woods, and what are they going to do if he enemy doesn't charge them? Sit there some more? Terrifying.

If you tie them down to staying in their woods, they can be ignored. By all means try to get your opponent to charge you in the woods, but if they don't go for it, you have to be prepared to bring your combat blocks out of the woods.
How do you force an opponent to charge into the woods?
Answer: with shooting silly!

A big unit of glade guard, or 2 smaller units with the trueflight arrows sitting in a woods. Then you put eternal guard in front of them. Remember you only need half the unit in the woods to get forest stalker.

Considering the above units is going to be like 1000pts total(also good character bunkers), the rest of your army will basically consist of waywatchers and fast cav. If your opponent doesn't go for your unit sitting the woods then they won't get enough points to win.
Exactly.

Wardancers are also good, being stubborn in woods, skirmishing to reduce-expand their footprint as needed, and a 3++ for a turn makes an excellent road block. A shadowdancer in an eternal guard unit could also work, preventing an enemy combat character from mincing the regiment.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by popisdead »

Beithir Seun wrote:
Minsc wrote:If anything, I'd like to discuss if people think it's worth giving them shields at all? When? Why/why not?
Honestly, I don't see any reason *not* to take shields. If it were a choice between taking shields and getting another unit on the table then it might be a different matter, but for 25-30pts it will keep enough EG alive to make the points back over the course of a game.
Toss in a Branchwraith and you have a 5+/5+ save with Earthblood which is nice. Even just from shooting that is a nice buff.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

popisdead wrote:
Beithir Seun wrote:
Minsc wrote:If anything, I'd like to discuss if people think it's worth giving them shields at all? When? Why/why not?
Honestly, I don't see any reason *not* to take shields. If it were a choice between taking shields and getting another unit on the table then it might be a different matter, but for 25-30pts it will keep enough EG alive to make the points back over the course of a game.
Toss in a Branchwraith and you have a 5+/5+ save with Earthblood which is nice. Even just from shooting that is a nice buff.
this is a really good idea m8!
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by tomrobo23 »

I came up with an awesome (rubbish but fun) idea for a mini eternal guard star.

shadowdancer with glittering scales.

Glade lord, armour of silvered steel, dawnstone, great weapon, talisman of 5++

lvl4 high magic, moonstone, scroll, mr2

glade captain BSB, hail of doom, great weapon

Basically load them into 30 eternal guard in your wood with trueflight glade guard behind them and the rest of the army being mobile so that they can't be pinned down. Your opponent comes to you or you moonstone to him. Between high magic tokens and the shadoweaver on one corner and the glade lord on the other you cut down any wounds and then further cut them down with your tokens to save your characters if wounds do get through. From there you can take the shadoweavers woven mist dance to cut their rank bonus. with 6 ranks of your own and your opponent doing little wounds back you can grind out a pretty comfortable win in CR.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Minsc »

tomrobo23 wrote: Glade lord, armour of silvered steel, dawnstone, great weapon, talisman of 5++
Dawnstone and the 5++ (Talisman of Endurance) are both magical talismans, so he's illegal. :(
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by tomrobo23 »

Minsc wrote:
tomrobo23 wrote: Glade lord, armour of silvered steel, dawnstone, great weapon, talisman of 5++
Dawnstone and the 5++ (Talisman of Endurance) are both magical talismans, so he's illegal. :(
oh yeah, didn't really matter, i tacked that on as i saw it left a lot of points but thanks for picking it out. I'll be relying more on high magic through tokens and apotheosis to keep the two fighters going their own protection is still pretty good overall.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

tomrobo23 wrote:I came up with an awesome (rubbish but fun) idea for a mini eternal guard star.

shadowdancer with glittering scales.

Glade lord, armour of silvered steel, dawnstone, great weapon, talisman of 5++

lvl4 high magic, moonstone, scroll, mr2

glade captain BSB, hail of doom, great weapon

Basically load them into 30 eternal guard in your wood with trueflight glade guard behind them and the rest of the army being mobile so that they can't be pinned down. Your opponent comes to you or you moonstone to him. Between high magic tokens and the shadoweaver on one corner and the glade lord on the other you cut down any wounds and then further cut them down with your tokens to save your characters if wounds do get through. From there you can take the shadoweavers woven mist dance to cut their rank bonus. with 6 ranks of your own and your opponent doing little wounds back you can grind out a pretty comfortable win in CR.
Don't like it...too many heroes/points in 1 unit, they are a huge target...actually I prefer to give no reference to opponents
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by tomrobo23 »

Druwid wrote:
tomrobo23 wrote:I came up with an awesome (rubbish but fun) idea for a mini eternal guard star.

shadowdancer with glittering scales.

Glade lord, armour of silvered steel, dawnstone, great weapon, talisman of 5++

lvl4 high magic, moonstone, scroll, mr2

glade captain BSB, hail of doom, great weapon

Basically load them into 30 eternal guard in your wood with trueflight glade guard behind them and the rest of the army being mobile so that they can't be pinned down. Your opponent comes to you or you moonstone to him. Between high magic tokens and the shadoweaver on one corner and the glade lord on the other you cut down any wounds and then further cut them down with your tokens to save your characters if wounds do get through. From there you can take the shadoweavers woven mist dance to cut their rank bonus. with 6 ranks of your own and your opponent doing little wounds back you can grind out a pretty comfortable win in CR.
Don't like it...too many heroes/points in 1 unit, they are a huge target...actually I prefer to give no reference to opponents
that's the point of a star. . . It's all your eggs in one basket, except to get the points you have to kill the basket pretty much entirely and when you have +1mv banner and moonstone you really aren't that vulnerable. Stars have become extremely prevalent these days for that reason.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

Mmm I don't think could ever be my strategy
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by tomrobo23 »

Doesn't need to be, just another use for eternal guard. Personally i'm looking to experiment with a unit of 30 or so. Sitting lvl4 shadow behind where those debuffs play havoc against EG. Whereas before we filled our core with archers the ability of the special and rare archers provides a more cost effective choice which isn't glade guard. It essentially is a swap from the old book, shooty core becomes shooty rare/special and EG fill most of the core with 1-2 trueflight units and a 5 man glade rider unit for the utility.
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