Eternal Guard

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Druwid
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Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

Hi guys, just want to know what do you think about Eternal Guard and if you had the chance to test it.
Actually I think that a mage with beast lore is necessary, plus BSB and a hammer unit (wild raiders maybe?); still have to test it.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Druwid wrote:Hi guys, just want to know what do you think about Eternal Guard and if you had the chance to test it.
Actually I think that a mage with beast lore is necessary, plus BSB and a hammer unit (wild raiders maybe?); still have to test it.
I've got a few games in now, and they've worked well.

They were supported by a heavens weaver, bsb and sisters of the thorn,and dropping -1 to hit modifiers and rerolling 6's to hit and wound on the enemy units helped keep them alive, with stubborn ld10 (standard of discipline in the sisters boosting the weaver to ld10) and bsb rerolls kept them fighting until I could bring in wardancers or wildriders to win the fights.

I'm running a unit of 10 and one of 15, the 10 man unit held up a big unit of chaos warriors with a character for 5 rounds of combat before they died thanks to the spells, and shield of thorns did more damage than the EG did!

They did get wiped out in 1 round of jammy rolls by a unit of swordsmasters, but nevermind.

I think life, heavens or shadow are best for supporting them, especially life (boost hem to T7 and resurrect any who die), although I use heaven's because you can bubble curse of the midnight wind at 12" to keep several units debuffed.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Sunshine coconut »

I've played a few games with them. They are good. A great stick unit (Unless you go up against Sword masters apparently). I find they work well as bait. I don't think people are scared of them and will send their elite rank infantry against them. But that is why you take moonstone ;)

ASF and a flank charge on a monster hurts a lot though too. I run a lvl 1 beast mage (scroll caddy) with them too. Just in case ;)
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

Quite interesting tbh, I was thinking to put a unit of 25 models flanked by a 3° lvl mage with High Magic Lore and 2 mages 1° lvl one shadow, the other beast lore. No heroes inside, too much squishy to me, better keep them far from close combat; for sure they need a hammer unit to help them or they should face a unit after the 3° round, properly weakened with shooting and debuffed with shadow.
Do you think shields are useful?
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Gorthaur »

Coyle_Ravane wrote:
Druwid wrote:Hi guys, just want to know what do you think about Eternal Guard and if you had the chance to test it.
Actually I think that a mage with beast lore is necessary, plus BSB and a hammer unit (wild raiders maybe?); still have to test it.
I've got a few games in now, and they've worked well.

They were supported by a heavens weaver, bsb and sisters of the thorn,and dropping -1 to hit modifiers and rerolling 6's to hit and wound on the enemy units helped keep them alive, with stubborn ld10 (standard of discipline in the sisters boosting the weaver to ld10) and bsb rerolls kept them fighting until I could bring in wardancers or wildriders to win the fights.

I'm running a unit of 10 and one of 15, the 10 man unit held up a big unit of chaos warriors with a character for 5 rounds of combat before they died thanks to the spells, and shield of thorns did more damage than the EG did!

They did get wiped out in 1 round of jammy rolls by a unit of swordsmasters, but nevermind.

I think life, heavens or shadow are best for supporting them, especially life (boost hem to T7 and resurrect any who die), although I use heaven's because you can bubble curse of the midnight wind at 12" to keep several units debuffed.
How many models wide do you use these units, I was going to do them in 10-15-20 strong depending but im not sure how wide I should make the movement trays.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

Considering that they attack on 3 ranks (4 in a wood, but I dubt that a sane player would ever charge 'em there) would be best 25 7 models wide with +1 movement to reach close combat as soon as possible (avoiding fire),being sure to have 3 full ranks able to fight.But this is just my noobish opinion, had just 1 game with WE...
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Gorthaur wrote:
How many models wide do you use these units, I was going to do them in 10-15-20 strong depending but im not sure how wide I should make the movement trays.
I went 5 wide, easy to maneuver. If needed though I have no problem stringing them out in a single rank, to block charges against other targets.

They are only there to hold units in place for the wildriders to charge, or to hold up a scary unit while I fight the rest of their army. I don't expect them to win combats on their own.

Once I can afford it. I'm replacing my dryads and going up to a unit of 20 and one of 15.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Baardah »

I think there is legs in deploying our EG units in 3 wide 10-12 man roadblock darts in woods. It might be situational but in this instance you get max out of these small units.
You get all models attacking, re-rolling 1's to wound etc. if they are in one of the acorns venom thickets they'll have poisoned attacks.

And you minimize incoming attacks as well.

The same goes for GG and WWR
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Baardah wrote:I think there is legs in deploying our EG units in 3 wide 10-12 man roadblock darts in woods. It might be situational but in this instance you get max out of these small units.
You get all models attacking, re-rolling 1's to wound etc. if they are in one of the acorns venom thickets they'll have poisoned attacks.

And you minimize incoming attacks as well.

The same goes for GG and WWR
The problem is that your opponent will simply ignore them, as there's no benefit to charging them most of the time.

If he does charge them,it's probably because his 20 strong block of ironbreakers led by Urist McFacebreaker just don't have anything better to do right now than demolish your eg after laughing at their pitiful attempts to hurt the dwarves.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Beithir Seun »

Coyle_Ravane wrote:The same goes for GG and WWR
The problem is that your opponent will simply ignore them, as there's no benefit to charging them most of the time.

If he does charge them,it's probably because his 20 strong block of ironbreakers led by Urist McFacebreaker just don't have anything better to do right now than demolish your eg after laughing at their pitiful attempts to hurt the dwarves.

The purpose of a roadblock unit is that you place them so that your enemy *can't* ignore them. They either have to pull off some crazy manouevre to get around the roadblock, or charge through them. How do you think people use Eagles?

The benefit to using Eternal Guard as roadblocks (rather than Eagles, or Glade Riders, or Dryads for example) is that unless he kills all of them in the first turn, the likelihood is that the EG will be hanging around thanks to Ld9 Stubborn. Your turn comes around, the enemy unit has been held up by a tiny EG unit and you slam into his flanks.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Beithir Seun wrote: The purpose of a roadblock unit is that you place them so that your enemy *can't* ignore them. They either have to pull off some crazy manouevre to get around the roadblock, or charge through them. How do you think people use Eagles?

The benefit to using Eternal Guard as roadblocks (rather than Eagles, or Glade Riders, or Dryads for example) is that unless he kills all of them in the first turn, the likelihood is that the EG will be hanging around thanks to Ld9 Stubborn. Your turn comes around, the enemy unit has been held up by a tiny EG unit and you slam into his flanks.
I know that, I've been repeatedly advocating EG over the "just fill core with GG" philosophy over the last week for exactly that reason.

My point was that a wood is not mobile (at least not with a unit in it anymore), so if you can't rely on the enemy coming through the wood. Outside the wood you can move around as needed to block the enemy off, in the woods you rely on them bring too impatient to go round, or passing close enough for you to charge out.

Either way, I don't expect to see many cases of people chargeing solid EG or WWR blocks in woods unless it is with something capable of almost wiping them out in one turn, whic just keeps that unit safe from your archers on your turn, and probably leaves them free again on their own next turn.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Oregonwoodelf »

I used two units of eternal guards(15 and 20) in my first game last night against dark elves (2800pts). My unit of 20(banner of swiftness) charged one of his hydras(got withering on the hydra for 3) killed it , then overran into warlocks killed them too. My unit of 15(banner of discipline) got charged by 25 executioners held for a turn until my unit of 7 wild riders with bsb(drinks his potion of strength at beginning of turn) could hit the flank. I cast mind razor on the EG that was the end of the executioners. My WR overran through a forest into the flank of 10 coldone knights that had just charged my treeman. Totally killed the coldone knights and won the game 2400 to 600. :D I only ran 12 glade guard with trueshot arrows, most of my shooting came for DW scouts and way watchers. I agree with Coyle_Ravane eternal guard are probably the best core choice, I think DW scouts(take mostly hagbane for moster and war machines) and WW(use them for high armor or killing t3 little/no armor with multiple shot) are the way to go for shooting. I think glad guard are best with trueshot arrows or no magic arrows at all. I have only had one game so far, so there is lost of list testing to do.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Beithir Seun »

Coyle_Ravane wrote: My point was that a wood is not mobile (at least not with a unit in it anymore), so if you can't rely on the enemy coming through the wood. Outside the wood you can move around as needed to block the enemy off, in the woods you rely on them bring too impatient to go round, or passing close enough for you to charge out.
I hadn't realised Baardah was talking about EG in woods; I was talking about EG in general. I agree with you on the ignoring issue then, if you're just going to plant your EG in a wood and wait for them to get charged. That's certainly not making the best use of your units.

To me, the presence of a wood is by-the-by. It's not something you should allow to dictate your strategy. All the points I made about EG are still valid.
Either way, I don't expect to see many cases of people chargeing solid EG or WWR blocks in woods unless it is with something capable of almost wiping them out in one turn, whic just keeps that unit safe from your archers on your turn, and probably leaves them free again on their own next turn.
If you're using them as a roadblock then the idea (as I stated earlier) is to give your opponent no other option but to charge them. It's your job to position your other units to take advantage of that. You use roadblocks for two purposes; to hold a unit up to allow you to avoid dealing with it for another turn, or to tie a unit down to allow you to deal with it straight away. You set your other units up appropriately, either by having counter charges set up, or by using the opportunity to get out of the opposing unit's way. Either way, EG are the perfect unit to act as the roadblock in that regard, thanks to being Ld9 Stubborn.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

Mmm for sure I'll try them the next game.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Baardah »

Beithir Seun wrote:
Coyle_Ravane wrote: My point was that a wood is not mobile (at least not with a unit in it anymore), so if you can't rely on the enemy coming through the wood. Outside the wood you can move around as needed to block the enemy off, in the woods you rely on them bring too impatient to go round, or passing close enough for you to charge out.
I hadn't realised Baardah was talking about EG in woods; I was talking about EG in general. I agree with you on the ignoring issue then, if you're just going to plant your EG in a wood and wait for them to get charged. That's certainly not making the best use of your units.

To me, the presence of a wood is by-the-by. It's not something you should allow to dictate your strategy. All the points I made about EG are still valid.
Either way, I don't expect to see many cases of people chargeing solid EG or WWR blocks in woods unless it is with something capable of almost wiping them out in one turn, whic just keeps that unit safe from your archers on your turn, and probably leaves them free again on their own next turn.
If you're using them as a roadblock then the idea (as I stated earlier) is to give your opponent no other option but to charge them. It's your job to position your other units to take advantage of that. You use roadblocks for two purposes; to hold a unit up to allow you to avoid dealing with it for another turn, or to tie a unit down to allow you to deal with it straight away. You set your other units up appropriately, either by having counter charges set up, or by using the opportunity to get out of the opposing unit's way. Either way, EG are the perfect unit to act as the roadblock in that regard, thanks to being Ld9 Stubborn.
I agree the situation won't the most prevalent, however some in believe that only half the unit had to be in a wood for the prowess to apply. I'm sure there will be situations where it can benefit us. Say that unit the enemy is marching through the wood towards your lines, not expecting a charge From a tiny unit of elves, happens to get exactly that. Charged by your EG dart. Just so that 5 of 10 models still is in the wood.

I know situational, but those situations will occur and when it does it is nice to employ that 3x3 +1 formation.
If the acorn is used to set up a forest fence in the middle of the board these units can hang around right behind them waiting for the moment to construct the situation by actually declaring the charge themselves. And if the situation doesn't occur apply a different formation and do the same job, just as efficient but without the relatively small boon the forest would have provided. Good thing is that their main strength is stubborn and they have that regardless...

Edit: another point is that people, at least in the beginning, might underestimate the min sized T3, no armor to speak of, elves, expecting to steamroll them and ending up being surprised..

For a unit of 10 GG I think it will be the way they are deployed in general. 3x3+1. On the forest edge with back ranks in the forest...
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

I didn't mean to dismiss the idea completely. I just think a lot if people are getting varied away with how useful Forest Stalker is going to be, and not really seeing that you have to force the situation on your opponent, and you can't just rely on your opponent charging into the woods, unless you force it.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Druwid »

Ok but how do you force your opponent? There's also another problem to me: if you field 15 models, they can be wiped away in 1 turn of magic/shooting. A grudge thrower can easily get rid of a unit of EG; same for Wild Riders. So the main issue is not to force the opponent in the woods, but to keep EG+WR(or any other hammer unit) alive and able to face close combat.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Beithir Seun »

Coyle_Ravane wrote:I didn't mean to dismiss the idea completely. I just think a lot if people are getting varied away with how useful Forest Stalker is going to be, and not really seeing that you have to force the situation on your opponent, and you can't just rely on your opponent charging into the woods, unless you force it.

Oh, absolutely. In comparison with High and Dark elves (who get their army wide rule all the time...) we definitely got the short end of the stick. Forest Stalker is most definitely situational. Sometimes you will be able to force that situation, but most of the time you won't. All my opponents try to avoid woods out of principle anyway; doubly so if there's a unit of Wood Elves in it. It's definitely possible to force the situation, but shouldn't be relied upon...
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Pigey »

Since the EG has Hand Weapons and Shields as an option, would you consider getting the parry save?

I know you'd lose the extra rank and the armour piercing, I am just wondering if anyone considered using that.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Findecano »

Pigey wrote:Since the EG has Hand Weapons and Shields as an option, would you consider getting the parry save?

I know you'd lose the extra rank and the armour piercing, I am just wondering if anyone considered using that.
I'm pretty sure that if you have a special weapon (defined on p.88 as 'anything that isn't a hand weapon') then you cannot choose to use your basic hand weapon instead, this would include EG's wood elf spear.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Minsc »

Pigey wrote:Since the EG has Hand Weapons and Shields as an option, would you consider getting the parry save?
8th ed. forces you to use any kind of special weapon, as Findecano says.

If anything, I'd like to discuss if people think it's worth giving them shields at all? When? Why/why not?
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Minsc wrote:
Pigey wrote:Since the EG has Hand Weapons and Shields as an option, would you consider getting the parry save?
8th ed. forces you to use any kind of special weapon, as Findecano says.

If anything, I'd like to discuss if people think it's worth giving them shields at all? When? Why/why not?
I do. I don't expect it to make a massive difference in combat, but against shooting it can really help. It's basically a roughly 20% increase in durability against attacks with no save modifier or a -1. And it costs less than 10% of the cost of an EG.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by Pigey »

Minsc wrote:
Pigey wrote:Since the EG has Hand Weapons and Shields as an option, would you consider getting the parry save?
8th ed. forces you to use any kind of special weapon, as Findecano says.

If anything, I'd like to discuss if people think it's worth giving them shields at all? When? Why/why not?
Woops, sorry. I'm a bit late.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by themidget428 »

my 2 cents, I've played 4 games so far with 20 of them and I love em.

First two games i had the bsb in the unit to make them 7x3. you can read about these in the batrep forum but basically in a venom thicket these guys are hoss, and by using ASF to remove a lot of attacks, and being ws5, they're surprisingly resilient with t3 5+.

Last two games I've moved my bsb so i've ran 20 of them 5 wide with the std of discipline. First game they got into combat with sword masters, killed a butload, lost by 1 and I failed my stubborn 10 with an 11, and my bsb was 2" out of range :cry:
I felt confident to atleast neuter the unit before dying the next combat round so that my bows could finish them off. I had to rely on the EG for the heavy lifting as this was the World Dragon unit and my waywatchers were too far away.

Game 2, a Lion chariot and 14 swordmasters charged into a venom thicket with my 20 EG. 21 attacks later, he had 2 sword masters and they ran for about 4 turns until they left the table. The lion chariot being stubborn as well stuck around forever until I poisoned him to death and he narrowed the unit down to about 5 models.

That said, Removing the shields is something I haven't considered doing that I may do in the future if i'm trying to free 20 points or so. Its so negligiable most of the time, and you wonder if the 2 or 3 saves you make over the game is worth the 20 points if you could have gotten an impactful magic item or something.
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Re: Eternal Guard

Post by popisdead »

Yeah EG will always have to use their spears.
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