The Power of the Acorns?

[Tropic]

If we use this rule interpretation, then we couldn't even deploy our free Woods.

There are 2 requirements for using the Acorn: after Terrain is set AND before units are deployed. Theoretically you could use the Acorn before the free Wood (before sides are determined) or after the free Wood (after sides are determined). See it's my item, I get to decide as long as I meet the AFTER terrain and BEFORE units deployed limitation. Oh and AB > BRB.

I agree with this Noght and am going to have to disagree with the majority of other posts on this thread because...

Its absolutely ridiculous to think you would deploy the acorn before choosing table sides !

There's nothing in the rules to say you have to and for fluff reasons I'm not having it that a handmaiden just happened to wonder into the enemy's deployment zone before the battle and began planting seeds "oh hi beastmen, lovely day for planting seeds" Come on !

If somebody quotes a rule which explicitly say "use the acorn before choosing sides" then I will eat my words but otherwise please stop trying to find faults in the rules.

Nought, your reference to Acorns isn't entirely accurate.

Acorns of the Ages
...At the start of the game, after the battlefield has been set up, but before deployment begins...

"Before deployment begins" is not "before units are deployed". It's referencing the entire phase of deployment. This is further supported by looking at the six Battle scenarios described in the BRB. Every one of them has a "THE BATTLEFIELD" section followed immediately by a "DEPLOYMENT" section (all caps from the book). It's no coincidence that the Acorns rule references the same two sections in the same way; all that's missing are the all caps.

The first four Battles--Battleline, Dawn Attack, Battle for the Pass and Blood and Glory--all have the same opening statement in the DEPLOYMENT section:

Roll off to see which player picks the half of the table they [will/want to] deploy in....

The fifth Battle (Meeting Engagement) alters this slightly based on the diagonal deployment board with the following statement, also in the DEPLOYMENT section:

The players roll off and the winner chooses the two opposite corners to be used and which half of the table each player will deploy in...

The sixth Battle (The Watchtower) is similar, but gives the choice to the opposing player during the DEPLOYMENT section:

Roll off to see who controls the watchtower at the start of the battle... The opposing player then picks the half of the table they will deploy in....

In all of these cases, it's quite clear that sides are chosen during the DEPLOYMENT phase, after THE BATTLEFIELD is set up. As such, the Acorn Woods are set up before the sides are chosen. In contrast, the free Wood we receive explicitly states that it's placed "during deployment, before any units are deployed..."

Not trying to find fault with the rules here. Just want to make sure we are all on the same page that Acorns Woods have to be placed before sides are chosen while the free Wood is placed after sides are decided upon. In fact, I think placing the Acorns Woods first before sides are decided actually benefits us. How else could we get the chance to get Woods into the opponent's side of the board so you can Moonstone over to them? Say you roll a 2 on the d3. You can virtually guarantee this by putting one Wood in the center of each half of the board. It would take an extraordinarily unfortunate scatter to get it back to the center of the board.

[Oregonwoodelf]

If we use this rule interpretation, then we couldn't even deploy our free Woods.

There are 2 requirements for using the Acorn: after Terrain is set AND before units are deployed. Theoretically you could use the Acorn before the free Wood (before sides are determined) or after the free Wood (after sides are determined). See it's my item, I get to decide as long as I meet the AFTER terrain and BEFORE units deployed limitation. Oh and AB > BRB.

I agree with this Noght and am going to have to disagree with the majority of other posts on this thread because...

Its absolutely ridiculous to think you would deploy the acorn before choosing table sides !

There's nothing in the rules to say you have to and for fluff reasons I'm not having it that a handmaiden just happened to wonder into the enemy's deployment zone before the battle and began planting seeds "oh hi beastmen, lovely day for planting seeds" Come on !

If somebody quotes a rule which explicitly say "use the acorn before choosing sides" then I will eat my words but otherwise please stop trying to find faults in the rules.

On 141 it says each battle is broken up into different categories, Armies, the battlefield, deployment, first turn, game length, and victory conditions. All the pitch battles are broken down like this too on their pages. So you have to set up terrain in the battlefield phase, then use your acorn. The deployment phase begins and the first step of that is to roll off and pick table sides. I wish it was the other way around . At least you can still move them with the staff. I really want this stupid acorn to work well but I still could not bring myself to use it in my first game.

[frogboy]

Before deployment begins is the same meaning as before you deploy your troops. Other wise it would say before the paragraph in the rule book which is written DEPLOYMENT.

And yes you would be able to put the trees anywhere this way as at least you would have a choice.

The whole point of our army is to be inside a wood, for shooting for combat and for spell casting why you would we have a magic item costing 100 points which doesn't benefit us.

Even the fluff supports this way of placing it, not that that seems to matter to anybody these days.

[Boskie43]

Why do we keep adding rules and wordings that we want when there are rules? Just because something in be book isn't the "I win" button doesn't imply we change the way we want the rules to work to make it ridiculous.
Let's just make a new game called "our hammer" and we can change up rules however we'd like, whenever we'd like? No reason to have a rule book so that way we can be super uber powerful rather than potentially strong? Sounds good to me.

End rant:

Does no one read the main rule book anymore? Has 8th been out that long that we ignore it? Are we all too blinded by the new shiny things that we can't see it? There is no reason to add all those extra words because in fact it makes it obviously wrong. Deployment is literally a phase of the setup. I'll go into it more in a second. But clearly , collectively we need to review that part of set up ias deployment doesn't start with troops, it starts with a "roll off to see which player picks the half of the table they will deploy in" (except for watchtower which has special deployment rules)

If you use the acorn in a conservative manner -you can help dictate an enemy deployment in some manners so as to help with your tactical plan once the game starts. Though terrain is rather worthless in true line of sight 8th ed (dumbest rule switch of all time), we can still use it to our advantage. Play it conservatively - don't just stack one side. Put some in the middle to see if they attempt to avoid it or go in and use the stave to whack them. Do you honestly believe they gave us an item that when combined with our other woods could make it so we literally never leave the woods/our side of the table? Even going by that precious fluff it would be wrong. They leave the forest to fight frequently when required the fluff shows that. Game balance and the combat heaviness of 8th would potentially make that ridiculously powerful with how strong our shooting can be.

It clearly says BEFORE deployment. It doesn't say before you deploy your troops. The very first thing you do in deployment, which follows the battlefield phase (which helps you know your terrain before the acorn gets planted/popped), is to roll off to see who gets to pick which side of the table they have. They then place a unit, or troops if you'd prefer. It's clear in the wording and the rules that Acorn goes off before we even get to select a table side. Plan your placements accordingly. Even in the introduction right by Jervis' head under "the armies deploy" is a non legal?(best word I could think of) version that shows in fact that you choose table sides and then deploy your armies during deployment. It's how it works wether we like it or not.


As to having insanely high priced magical items... Yeah I agree it's dumb. But they are all hardly "I win" buttons. Why should this be any different?

Why do we have a wizarding hat? Why is there a book of ashur that i personally have never seen in countless tournaments to this point? When did we last see a scroll of leeching? Rampagers standard anyone? And those aren't army specific. Anyone can take those and yet not used.

Why does almost every army book have a 65+ point magic weapon item that almost NO ONE uses? Or 100 point banners that a character would then spend 125 points (25 more for BSB) and not be able to survive long enough since the banner loses effect if he dies? That banner will rarely, if ever, be used? Because some jackass at GW thought it would be cool, have it some fluff with no consideration how it functions within the rules, and then gives it an arbitrary point cost.

[frogboy]

Before deployment begins VS before the deployment "phase" begins.

See what I did there, its called English.

[Boskie43]

What I see is that yet again you added a word. In this case "phase". That's not English. That's adding words so that you can play "your-hammer".
It does not say deployment phase in the rule book.
It literally says deployment.
Nothing more. Nothing less. We add the term phase as players to show that it is part of an organized method of doing something - in this case the greater whole of setup before the actual beginning of turn one. Games-workshop - in THEIR rule book just calls it "Deployment". Thus... "Before deployment begins" happens .. Oh... I dunno.. Before deployment maybe?

I wish I had an easy way to add a picture here while on my phone so that I can show you what page 142 looks like and then what page 144 and subsequent scenarios show.

[frogboy]

Ok i have to say at this point that this argument is going nowhere and its not in the spirit of the forum so may suffer for that reason but ive started so i will give it one more try.

Your adding words not me. Like I said already "before deployment begins" if what your saying is correct it would say, before DEPLOYMENT or before the Deployment phase or before the paragraph titled deployment. But it doesn't it says what I said already.

"Before deployment begins"

Aww this is so stupid. I'm not answering after this. Its either you see it or you don't. Also don't post pictures of the rule book without reading the site rules.

[Git]

I believe you are wrong, frogboy. Enough arguments have been presented and I will not bring in any more. Anyone can re-read the thread.

On the other side of this issue: I think it's great that the forests are placed before choosing sides. Then we can place them on both sides (or in the middle, if we only get one), ensuring we have forests on both sides. We should not be dependent on fighting in forests, but our opponents will be wary of giving us the opportunity. This can dictate both their deployment and movement.

[frogboy]

Well I know I said I wouldn't add anything more but sometimes I can't help myself

My Lords, Lady's and fellow peasants let me first say how great it is to have this debate and how fantastic it is that our once forgotten kingdom has been blessed by the powers at Games Workshop with an updated Army Book. I longed for these days for a long time and now it is here I can hardly believe it, what a wonder the rules are, such synergy. Our army has always relied on combined attacks, not using one unit or character but being active in all the phases of the game. Now in its current state with the Army wide rules as they are I would suggest that there is no other item in the Wood Elf book or available to the Wood Elves in the BRB which compliments these great rules other than The Acorn of Ages. It's not over powered but with the control of the positioning of the Woods we have a great boost in power, let's not confuse that with overpowered or broken, but it dose significantly increase the potential of the Wood Elves. I think we can agree on that at least.

Now let's look at Games Workshop, recent evidence suggests that as a company they have only been interested in profit, that's a healthy suggestion for a business after all. As paying customers we all want the best for our game and will buy what we think will give us the best chance of a good fair fight on the Warhammer battlefield. So Games Workshop knowing that have always tailored their lists in order to sell their products. Which is why I say we can have the choice of where we as paying customers can place our citadel forests. Because if it were not so, how many people from all them people (who did not make there own) would buy 4 citadel forest boxed sets if the rules did not benefit them. Nobody would.
Therefore I present my conclusion and findings in this matter, Games Workshop intended to sell lots of Citadel Forest boxed sets, they asked Mr Ward to present to us the paying customer in the way of an Army book something which wood achieve their goal. Something got lost in translation or the editor had to cut a few words out and altered the text at the last minuite. Resulting in several different opinions on how the rules should be played for The Acorn of Ages. We all know how it is intended to be played so stop struggling with this and come to the dark side, RAI or whatever it's called free your mind Luke I am your Father....

Haha ok so glad I sorted that one out phew ! Now we can all happily deploy our Woods where we want them, after the battlefield has been set up and just before deployment begins...

[Noght]

First Rule of Rules debates: AB > BRB. Completely ignore what the BRB says about "deploying" a WE wood. Our AB tells us when.

Free Wood: before unit drop, after table sides are chosen.
Acorn: after set up battlefield, before unit drop. That's it, only 2 requirements.

As it's my magic item, I can choose to use it one of 2 ways. I could "pop" it immediately after the battlefield is set up (before sides) and deploy D3 Forest. Or after I drop my free Forest. My choice, bound by the magic items limitations (after Battlefield, before Deployment drops).

There's is simply a huge space between "set-up the Battlefield" and "Deployment drops". Somewhere in there you are told specifically when you place the free Forest.

Heck, using your logic I wouldn't even get a free Forest if I roll Watchtower. I don't think so....

Of course, we need to clarify the difference between "deployment (verb)" and "Deployment (phase)". Let the scrum commence.

[Malkav]

Bring on the FAQ?

[Findecano]

Bring on the FAQ?

I rather doubt it, its been almost a year since they last put out a new FAQ for wfb and books like Lizardmen and high elves need answers to real issues much more than this one.

Personally my feeling is that frog boys solution is probably the intended one, in all the six standard scenarios it seems that the roll for table edge is considered to be part of the deployment process, but I also note that this is nowhere overtly specified in the rules of the game.

By rules as written I would say you can put down your woods at any point between when the battlefield terrain has been completely set up and when the first unit hits the table. I would also say that because this is potentially ambiguous regarding how it relates to the roll for table edges etc, it makes sense that the controlling player would choose exactly when in that window to activate the item and put down the woods (meaning that the wood elf player could legitimately wait until after table edges had been decided to put down his woods).

Having said all that the pre-game procedure for wfb is fairly wooly when you compare it to 40k, which has an extremely rigid order in which everything is done. It would not surprise me at all if the pre-game procedure is greatly tightened up in 9th edition and it becomes clear exactly where the acorn activates.

[Boskie43]

First Rule of Rules debates: AB > BRB. Completely ignore what the BRB says about "deploying" a WE wood. Our AB tells us when.

Free Wood: before unit drop, after table sides are chosen.
Acorn: after set up battlefield, before unit drop. That's it, only 2 requirements.

Your first line is totally correct. An army book over rides the basic rule book IF there is a conflict or some special rule.
The BRB doesn't say anything about deploying a WE wood.
Thus NO conflict to have the army book override the rule book. There is simply a transitional pause there that the WE book tells us to do something before we transition to the next part of setting up the game.
Thus you are correct. Our army book tells us when.
Let me correct you on your reading of the rules. Considering you've misstated what the Acorn says. I appreciate you attempting to help lay out when each is "dropped". Let's Make sure we actually do what the RULES actually say.

"Ambush from the world roots" (our free woods). "During deployment, before any units are deployed, and must be placed wholly in your half"

"Acorn of the Ages". "... After the battlefield has been set up, but Before Deployment begins..."

Guess what... Ambush clearly shows it is during deployment and the very first thing is to roll off and see who has each side. Boom... Ambush placed. Once we know who is on each side so we can satisfy the "during deployment" along with "wholly in your half" and "before any units are deployed".

Here is how a game is setup considering, to quote frogboy "English" - and I'll insure that I place where each is used respectively.

-Choose Armies (chosen amongst the system on page 132).

-Pick which "pitched battles is used" - either roll a d6 to do it or agree with your opponent on which to use.

-Battlefield ( terrain is now set up) "place at least d6+4 pieces chosen from your terrain collection. alternatively make at least d6+4 rolls on the random terrain chart". You then roll off and alternate placing said pieces of terrain.

"Before deployment". Acorn pops so you roll and place d3 woods on the table where you want and then they randomly scatter 2d6. Once that is done, choose which kind of forests you want them to be - choose from the mysterious forest table.

Deployment - (for all scenarios but watchtower) - roll off to see who gets to choose which table side first. Now that we are within the deployment part of set up there are two things for woodlands ambush:
1. Table sides have now been rolled for so we have a table side from which to "wholly in your half of the battlefield".
2. Units have not yet been dropped but the choosing side criteria is done - so place the Woods now before a unit is deployed.
Now "players take it in turn to place units on the table"
Some scenarios - watchtowers may add a step or dawn attack will have full army deployment (placing a watch tower) but there is still a clear area between deployment and durning deployment with the ability to drop after sides have been chosen, as he rules require for it ( woodlands ambush)

Vanguards occur now. Roll off to see who goes first for this if both have vanguards.

First turn - follow scenario for who goes first. Just as an example as I would guess Battleline is the most played scenarios amongst the community - roll off after deployment to see which player takes first turn - player than finished gets a +1 to his roll. So as we can see... This is another big change in 8th edition.. You don't choose to go first or 2nd any more - you win that die roll you are first.

Gsme turn length - usually 6 turns - scenario can change it a bit.

Victory conditions - how we find the winner after the game has been played to the game length played.


There it is... Laid out exactly within the rules for both be BRB and the WE book. No question when this occurs if you follow the rules laid out to us. There isn't even a conflict. Simply a bit more to do at clearly laid out parts of the game set up before turn one actually comes.

Totally agree with Frogboy when it comes to the dumb "citadel woods" remark. Anyone that is a douche enough to call someone out for not having the exact woods and using a template needs to be punched in the nuts.
Saying that - to not follow the rules for when to set stuff up when clear guidelines are there is also kinda being a douche to further enhance the army. In effect, you're cheating.. Only bigger douche is the guy across the table who not only cheats if you don't realize it, but is also a total ass when going at it.

And another quick thing.. We place woods where we would like them to be.. Then they scatter. Are we going to complain about how it works if you luckily roll for 3 woods but then all 3 scatter 12 inches away from where you wanted them? Hardly matters... We don't know where we're going to deploy yet anyways and are guaranteed only 1 free wood in our deployment area if you do not conservatively deploy your woods.

This is a rather simple game that more often than not (but not always) is relatively easy to follow and allow a game to flow if you follow the rules as they are here. Pretty simple if you ask me. Doesn't require rocket science.

[gingersmali]

^ nice job.

I often wonder why GW don't spell things out extra clearly, but i guess they just assume its a game and people aren't going to be douche rule lawyers about it.

[Noght]

So in reply to Boskie's post:

My WE book says, and I quote, " At the start of the game, after the battlefield has been set up, but before deployment begins, place D3 Citadel Woods on the battlefield."

Notice the lack of CAPITALIZATION of the word "deployment". I submit that the word "deployment" is the verb, as in "to deploy", not the Deployment Phase, because that is completely different IMO.

FYI: the use do the word "deployment" and "deploy" in the Ambush from the Worldroots rule also follow this rule.

This is a rather simple game that more often than not (but not always) is relatively easy to follow and allow a game to flow if you follow the rules as they are here. Pretty simple if you ask me. Doesn't require rocket science.

See what I did there....

[Boskie43]

Do me a favor...
Where does GW in the basic rule book say that they have a DEPLOYMENT PHASE. We, the players, have added the word Phase to this to show an organized structure.
GW simply and literally labels it "deployment"

Before deployment begins, even if you factor in capitlization... seriously? Almost pissed myself laughing at the drawing out of the strings and the attempted breadth of making of the word.

Whatever. Argue semantics to attempt to further the book however you'll like.

It is clearly there. You yourself even copy pasted it exactly how it says. Here, English again:
To deploy - is a verb
deployment - is a noun.

Whether you choose to capiltaize it or not.
WAIT. OMG. battlefield isn't capitalized. Does it mean something else?

To use TWO separate online English dictonaries. And both of them have the NOUN and the verb of the word. Neither dictonary capitalizes deployment (the noun).

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deploy
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deploy?s=t

[Eye-Thief]

I apologise to go 'slightly' off-topic here, but;

If we're calling into debate the effect of the capitalisation, that would also lead people to question the lack of capitals on 'enchanted items' in the Armoury of Torgovann. But that is a completely different debate that I won't draw into this thread.

Back on topic;

I do personally feel that the wording suggests that you would place the D3 woods before rolling for sides, much as Boskie has pointed out in great detail above.
Perhaps this was intentional, as the forests do scatter 2d6", and if you picked your side only to have all your woods scatter inconveniently, that would kind of suck. Placing the woods before-hand, while forcing your hand to try and even out the battlefield, prevents the type of situation where all 3 of your Acorn woods scatter into your opponents table-half.

Additionally I'm not sure if this thread will continue to provide constructive feedback on the topic after reading this last page. Good points have been raised on both sides, it might be time to put this one aside until we get a solid answer on it?

[Gerinako]

More I think about it I'm going to go true flight arrows and spam the middle of the board with forests.

[Tropic]

Not that people notice what I've written anyways, but my last comment on this:

Deployment doesn't start with the first unit dropped on the board. Deployment starts with a roll-off for sides. Capitalized or not, both the BRB and the AB use the exact same words of "the battlefield" and "deployment" to describe the sections to which the Acorns rule applies. It can't be any clearer than that.

As for the RAI, I still contend this way of writing the rules works to our advantage as it ensures that the entire board has woods in it, not just our half. Isn't it better to have our vanguard units gain access to forests on their side of the board to garner the Forest Stalker benefit than wait for them to get into our half of the board? If you want to play a gunline camping list, then I suppose you don't, but based on the tactics I've seen on this forum few people play with a WE static gunline. With so much fast cav available to us, that kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

[Noght]

If we're calling into debate the effect of the capitalisation, that would also lead people to question the lack of capitals on 'enchanted items' in the Armoury of Torgovann. But that is a completely different debate that I won't draw into this thread.

I actually thing it's significant, YMMV.

Do me a favor...
Before deployment begins, even if you factor in capitlization... seriously? Almost pissed myself laughing at the drawing out of the strings and the attempted breadth of making of the word.

Whatever.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deploy
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deploy?s=t

We'll see. Funny, using your dictionary.com I get the definition of "deployment" as "to deploy" followed by the definition "deploy". Merriam says "deployment" (noun) as "act of deploying". So both definition of "deployment" (noun) = verb "to deploy".

Go back to the top of this page, I said let the scrum begin between definition "deployment" and "Deployment" (from BRB)

I'll miss you after your drive-by tolling rules arguments are a thing of the past.

[Eye-Thief]

If we're calling into debate the effect of the capitalisation, that would also lead people to question the lack of capitals on 'enchanted items' in the Armoury of Torgovann. But that is a completely different debate that I won't draw into this thread.

I actually thing it's significant, YMMV.

More of an observation than a statement suggesting that you were wrong. I actually feel the lack of capitalisation leaves things very open on both counts.

[Boskie43]

Not that people notice what I've written anyways, but my last comment on this:

Deployment doesn't start with the first unit dropped on the board. Deployment starts with a roll-off for sides. Capitalized or not, both the BRB and the AB use the exact same words of "the battlefield" and "deployment" to describe the sections to which the Acorns rule applies. It can't be any clearer than that.

As for the RAI, I still contend this way of writing the rules works to our advantage as it ensures that the entire board has woods in it, not just our half. Isn't it better to have our vanguard units gain access to forests on their side of the board to garner the Forest Stalker benefit than wait for them to get into our half of the board? If you want to play a gunline camping list, then I suppose you don't, but based on the tactics I've seen on this forum few people play with a WE static gunline. With so much fast cav available to us, that kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Didn't miss your post - and I totally agree - hence why I went even further and explained the entire process.
As I said in an earlier post - if we use it in a conservative manner we can help dictate how the battle will flow. This is the real key. We have such movement, even on our blocks, that by throwing things in the way and forcing your opponent to worry about how he will lay out his army (maybe you have moon stone... now he HAS to stick a small unit somewhere in those woods on his side or his entire flank will fall) you're in grand shape. Without even attempting to intentionally misuse the rules or attempt to understand what was intended, this item is REALLy good following the base rules.

Odds are good you'll get as least 1 woods while setting up the terrain before. Add in your second wood and on average 2 from acorn and you now have 4 woods to dance throughout with moonstone/saturate the middle of the field with... tons of tactics can be used to our advantage.

Block of troops standing right OUTSIDE of the forest or right inside our forest having the enemy come in means no steadfast for them. Put 2 forests in the middle of the table and force them to come through and engage them as they are in there. EG are stubborn so who cares about steadfast. Rest of our troops lose steadfast in the forest... so do they. Use it. Let them sit in there - you enjoy your benefits of steadfast while they do not.

Make the woods an abyssal and let our rangers sit right outside. ITP, get extra attacks against the enemy unit now in the woods that again do not have steadfast. Anything goes REALLY bad in that fight... might possibly hold on steadfast yourself.

More I think about it I'm going to go true flight arrows and spam the middle of the board with forests.

(outside duplication of arrows, another topic!)
I'm all for this idea. Even more so... put a big unit of Glade Guard w/ trueflight right behind a unit of Eternal Guard/Rangers. Hardcover for shooting "through" your troops (-2). Moved(-1)? Long range (-1)? Woods in the way (-1)? So negative 5 to my roll? Yeah 3s. And you can't get to them.


There is a ton we can do with it using the proper rules.

[Boskie43]

We'll see. Funny, using your dictionary.com I get the definition of "deployment" as "to deploy" followed by the definition "deploy". Merriam says "deployment" (noun) as "act of deploying". So both definition of "deployment" (noun) = verb "to deploy".

Go back to the top of this page, I said let the scrum begin between definition "deployment" and "Deployment" (from BRB)

I'll miss you after your drive-by tolling rules arguments are a thing of the past.

Have you ever used a dictionary?
On top of the fact that I'm hardly the only one here who states this.

And trolling? Seriously? Just because I read the rules (obviously differently than you do) and follow the logical progression of the written words (obviously again different than you do) does not make it a troll. People are allowed to have other opinions and set those forth. That includes how to use the words given to us in the context and rules that we have. I'm pretty damn certain if I was simply trolling or trying to get a "rise" out of someone I wouldn't have taken the time to type out (on a cell phone no less) the entire system to begin and follow through with a game WHILE showing how we use our special rules to insert extra parts into that said system. Thanks for the accusation though.

I'd love to see an actual page or reference within the rules of the game that shows I'm wrong here. Other than Frogboys, I don't agree to, your stretching of the word when given the exact statement from both our book and the BRB is just comical.
At least frog is arguing a fluff perspective, which I truly sympathize with. I believe GW could have written the rules better or even better articulated possibly if they wanted something different. Till then, we have rules. Nothing in the WE over rides the BRB for this instance.

[Beithir Seun]

Right gents, this has gone too far. There was absolutely no need to get into this argument and hijack the original topic of the thread, but you leave me little choice but to lock the thread.