Asrai - Axes or Swords

Discuss anything related to the Asrai, our forests, or camps around the Old World in here.

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Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Samoht »

Thought I'd move an interesting topic that was raised in the rumours thread out to it's own space, as it felt worthy of a non-derailing discussion.

I initially stated distaste for one of the new character models as it carries two axes and to me axes were more dwarvish and quite the antithesis to Asrai values. I know there had been axes on Wood Elf models in the past, but I had held the view that we were elegant elves with swords, rather than brutish tree-hacking axe wielders and had that view for all my 20+ years of collecting.

Then some bright spark pointed out a very simple counter argument:
Jossebuschman wrote:I like the axes. It stresses the celtic theme of the wood elves.
I think swords are the weapons that should not be used. It takes too much iron and therefore a lot of wood needs to be burned, not to mention the mining.

Our weapons should be: bows and arrows, spears and axes.
And now I'm finding I agree completely.

Couple of other quotes from that discussion:
Samoht wrote:You make a very valid point that I'm surprised I never reached, especially because I have always found our ability to forge so much sword steel a fluff problem. It's why I have always painted my Asrai swords soft metals like copper and gold, but your simple less metal weapons makes much more sense.

I'm converted. Less swords, more axes, here begins my converting revolution.
Kojibear wrote:Very interesting topic shift. Made me think that's for sure. I think over time the Wood Elves would have adapted their fighting style, so axemanship, spear and long dagger fighting may have become preferred over swordsmanship for one reason or another - fighting in enclosed spaces, lack of resources (no iron ore resevres), only using wood litter etc. Hmm...interesting. Hmm...I think I will ask google about any advantages axe fighting might have. :question: :)
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Maeglin »

Good idea, especially since the council members have started to join in!
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

I still think spears make most sense really, good for hunting and don't have to be swung in cramped quarters. Probably shorter spears, rather than the long spears used by HE and DE.

They just aren't as sexy.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Turin »

Copied from the rumours Thread (replied while this thread was created) :
Jossebuschman wrote:I like the axes. It stresses the celtic theme of the wood elves.
I think swords are the weapons that should not be used. It takes too much iron and therefore a lot of wood needs to be burned, not to mention the mining.

Our weapons should be: bows and arrows, spears and axes.
I like the axes, too !
Though I'm coming more from the "American Native - Mohawk - Tomahawk" Fraction with just a bit Celtic sprinkled in ...
:D :D :D

On second thought - Too much metal on the axes - real Tomahawks would have been sufficient. :p
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Beithir Seun »

As I said in the rumours thread, I think Wood Elves are a lot more 'flexible' when it comes to their weapon selection that either High or Dark Elves. I can understand regiments of disciplined spearmen or axemen all wielding the same weapon in the same style in a High Elf or Dark Elf army, but for Wood Elves I think they take a much more "anything goes", individual approach. Each elf uses whatever weapon they are most comfortable with, in whatever style they prefer, even in the same unit. It's long established in the fluff that elves in general are much more proficient with all types of weapons than, say, humans are, so it makes sense that they'd use whatever they have available and still be pretty deadly with it...


As for the whole "lack of iron ore/resources" - I don't buy it. Just because we don't have miner elves doesn't mean they have no access to iron. The whole south and east borders of Athel Loren lie next to huge mountain ranges, where iron ore is likely to be abundant, even just as surface deposits. Wood Elves also aren't adverse to blacksmithing, they're just more careful and less wasteful than Dwarves might be, in that they only use dead wood and aren't mass producing items. Following on from that, it's also likely that weapons are much more individual pieces, forged for specific individuals and then passed down through generations over the years. Given that the relative birth/death rate of elves is skewed in favour of the latter, it's entirely possible that there's actually a surplus of weapons just waiting for new elves to be born and pick them up.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Samoht »

Beithir you make some good points there and I pretty much agree with you on the mixed 'whatever weapon comes to hand' as opposed to strict regimental ordered equipment. I never see us as having army uniforms and more just fighting in what we're wearing.

However I think I'd always felt we avoided axes from a moral affinity with the woods stance and that's what I think I've lost now. I'd be happy to see more axes, probably more than swords, but the odd sword here and there definitely fits.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by brechttomme »

Beithir Seun wrote:I can understand regiments of disciplined spearmen or axemen all wielding the same weapon in the same style in a High Elf or Dark Elf army, but for Wood Elves I think they take a much more "anything goes", individual approach. Each elf uses whatever weapon they are most comfortable with, in whatever style they prefer, even in the same unit.
+1 :thumbsup:

The dual axes also make me think of the Celtic/Britannic style warriors from games such as Rome: Total War and I think that style would work well with elves, albeit a tad more elegant. That brings me to the next point, though: why can't axes be elegant? I know swords are longer and cause more of a graceful slash when they are swung, but I think people are imagining the axes as blunt instruments to chop wood. If elven swords can be beautiful and strong while lightweight, couldn't axes be like that too? For example, look at this mini (not mine at all, just found on the internet):
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These axes look a lot more elegant than the standard Dwarf variety, with their curves and all. :sexy: I could see them being used by a Wardancer, weaving in between enemies...

Regarding the resources, I think it's not that Wood Elves don't have access to them, but they just don't like to take more than necessary. Don't they work in a way where whatever they take from the earth, they have to give back in some way (by planting trees or caring for animals or something). I'm sure that's how they hunt at least. So maybe, Elven smiths can create beautiful axes without taking too much from nature.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Beithir Seun »

Samoht wrote:However I think I'd always felt we avoided axes from a moral affinity with the woods stance and that's what I think I've lost now. I'd be happy to see more axes, probably more than swords, but the odd sword here and there definitely fits.
To be honest, I don't really see any moral conflict between using axes, and affinity with the woods. I don't really think Wood Elves are that sentimental. Obviously, the affinity with the woods would prevent them from cutting down trees and mutilating the forest, but I think they'd be too pragmatic to rule out using axes as weapons to cut down Orcs, Beastmen or Undead instead...
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Axes can look elegant, but the fighting style is not. Swords can flow from one slash to the next, axes don't really work that way, more like: hack, regain balance, position for next swing, repeat.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by robtion »

On the topic of axes, I like the bear rider from Ax Faction. I am painting one for my WE army currently.
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A PIC painted by someone else, no way I could meet this standard.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Jossebuschman »

Wow, this discussion happened quickly.

I'm not saying that iron is not available to the Wood Elves, but that a lot of wood needs to be burned to be able to make a sword. Axes are relatively easy to make.
I base this on Germano-celtic cultures. It was a long standing convention in ancient historical writing that these cultures did not have a lot of swords because there was no iron to be mined. This however was a classic mistake in using ancient sources, namely Vegetius. In the area that is now Germany there was(is?) Iron to be mined (I'm not sure about Albion), but Germans were not proficient in mining. Therefore spears were the main weapon for Germanic tribes. Easy to make in large quantities. Axes were also widely used, though not as much. Swords were, as a previous poster pointed out, reserved for the leaders (and sometimes their retinues), more as a sign of power than as a weapon of war. They were often traded, not forged.
Note that I am talking about Germanic and Britannic tribes, In Gaul the sword was more common as they traded a lot with Italy and Iberia.

So much for the historical argument.

I think the real discussion however is how you see Wood Elves.
Gracefulness of the elves is a valid point and this certainly makes the sword an obvious weapon of choice for for instance wardancers. But to me Wood Elves would be more practical and mindful of the forest. Spears, bows and axes are just way more eco-friendly weapons and therefore to be preferred.
Wood Elves also aren't adverse to blacksmithing
I would argue that Wood Elves are very adverse to any kind of industry. In many of the stories concerning invasions it is stressed that the invader burns down the forest to feed their furnaces and that the Elves are outraged by it.

I agree with your point about weapons being handed down from generation to generation. I don't know much about declining quality of blades though (but if it is Valyrian steel they should be fine :P).
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Samoht »

Beithir Seun wrote:
Samoht wrote:However I think I'd always felt we avoided axes from a moral affinity with the woods stance and that's what I think I've lost now. I'd be happy to see more axes, probably more than swords, but the odd sword here and there definitely fits.
To be honest, I don't really see any moral conflict between using axes, and affinity with the woods. I don't really think Wood Elves are that sentimental. Obviously, the affinity with the woods would prevent them from cutting down trees and mutilating the forest, but I think they'd be too pragmatic to rule out using axes as weapons to cut down Orcs, Beastmen or Undead instead...
I'm already sold, I've switched sides, the arguments for more axes have proven too logical and I'm excited about the converting possibilities.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Beithir Seun »

Jossebuschman wrote:
Wood Elves also aren't adverse to blacksmithing
I would argue that Wood Elves are very adverse to any kind of industry. In many of the stories concerning invasions it is stressed that the invader burns down the forest to feed their furnaces and that the Elves are outraged by it.

I agree with your point about weapons being handed down from generation to generation. I don't know much about declining quality of blades though (but if it is Valyrian steel they should be fine :P).

I completely agree that they are adverse to industry, but blacksmithing is not necessarily the same thing as industry. I would expect Wood Elves to approach the forging of weapons as much more of an artisan craft, and almost a work of art. They must be capable and able to make use of metalworking in order to make any use of metal weapons, but the difference between industrial processes and the Wood Elf approach is that Wood Elves would only use what was necessary to make a weapon. There's a bit difference between wantonly cutting down trees and burning them to fuel furnaces, and taking only enough dead wood to forge an individual masterpiece weapon. We know there's at least one famed weaponsmith in Athel Loren, as we have Daith referenced several times in the current book, and he wouldn't really be famous if he was the *only* smith, so there must be others as well.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by godswearhats »

I like spears personally. It feels good from a less-industry perspective, and it also fits the bill for elegance (assuming it's wielded with two hands). Read Brandon Sanderson's Way of Kings if you don't agree with the latter.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Avian »

Leaving the fluff reasons for axes like ideology and economics of Athel Loren aside I see no reason that the WE wouldn't use axes.
A small hand axe is a very effective weapon, I do Early Medieval/Viking combat reenactment and have started using an axe recently as well as single handed sword and spear. A handaxe has a LOT of versatility, you can move your hand around on the handle to fit your situation.

If held at the end opposite the head you can do powerful swings but the head also makes an excellent hook. Depending on the shape of the axehead you can also thrust with it. A trick that used to be very popular with axe fighting (that's now banned in reenactment fighting for being crazy dangerous) was to put the axe head behind an opponent's knee as you ran past and lift them off the ground by it before thrusting the head into the chest (outside of reenactment i would go for the face). Another popular trick still in use is to hook onto a shield and to pull it out of the way either for a thrust or for your mate beside you to be able to get into the gap you just created. Both of these totally sound like things Wardancers would do.

If the axe is held just under the head it can be used as a knuckle-duster/punch-dagger for close combat where you're pressed up against one another. this has the added bonus that you can place the axehaft down your forearm in order to deflect sword/spear shots. The back end of the haft can also be used to hook weapons/shields out of your way too. the downside of this technique is it's lack of reach

Alternatively you can also hold the haft somewhere in the middle and this gives some benefits of both styles mentioned above.

Worth a mention for handaxes is the Francisca which is a Frankish throwing axe used between about 800-900AD I've not had the opportunity to play with one so I can't say for certain but have been told by others who have used them that they bounce. Like rugby balls. They hit the ground and they fly off in god only knows what direction and were commonly used to disrupt a shield wall just before charging it and attempting to breach it. Again this sounds very Wardancer to me.

I've also seen long two handed axes mentioned in the rumors thread and dismissed as slow, in the right hands they're anything but slow! in an Anglo-Saxon/Viking context they were usually swung in a figure of 8 and the user would simply walk forwards smashing spears, shields and anything in his path. There's also accounts from the battle of Hastings of Housecarls using these things taking a horse's head off and killing the knight armored in mail who was sat on the horse in a single blow without needing recovery time for the next strike. These on the other hand Don't really sound like the kind of thing Wood Elves would use as you need good open areas to use one. Within reenactment they are often used for area denial. One man with a broadaxe can hold a 12 foot wide gap on his own but he needs that clear space around him, not something you're going to get in the confines of Athel Lorren!


Hope this info helps the debate along make of it what you will.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Axes or Swords?

Asrai Spears!

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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Narahan »

It's as long as it is short...

Whether you're using the wood to smelt iron or as a haft, some poor treekin still has to give up his shin or arm or other body part (too rude and horrible to mention).
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Archaeoman »

I just saw the new model with dual axes and thought I'd jump in on this discussion. All I can say that guy is AWESOME!!!! And if you read the fluff below, he, the GG, and Waywatcher noble are warriors of the Wildwood. I personally freaked out, because my army is Wildwood themed! Thank you, GW, for making my fluff canon!

What better weapon to use in killing renegade forest spirits than an axe!? My Waywatcher noble toted the Wildfire blades, which I always envisioned as axes for tree hunting! I for one welcome axes and intend to use more of them as I retool my army. Let's get chopping!!! :evil:
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Maeglin »

For exercise (I don't do gyms) I practice with a large tomahawk style axe and a gladius style short sword. Now I'm no wardancer but the speed even I can wield the two together would be terrifying to face.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Billthesurly »

Maeglin wrote:For exercise (I don't do gyms) I practice with a large tomahawk style axe and a gladius style short sword. Now I'm no wardancer but the speed even I can wield the two together would be terrifying to face.
I'm with Maeglin. My wardancers almost all carry hand axe (or tomahawk if you will) with shortsword or another hand axe. And almost all of the blades in the army are painted in bronze. Most of the weapons be they spearpoints, axes, shortswords or whatever are painted bronze. I reserve steel for some swords and for blades that are supposed to be magical I add in some blue or red for a bluish or redish tinge to the metal.

Our best source of steel is from the armor and weapons of all the fools who violate our borders and no longer need them. :evil:

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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by godswearhats »

Congrats Bill. Welcome to the millennium club :-)
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Blackcat »

Personally I dont think wood elves should be using any sort of metals at all other than what can be crafted without fire. My wood elf army is currently using stone arrow heads and spear heads and no metal of any sort for fighting.

But....

Thematically axes make sense. Historically, as has been said already, the celts and the native Americans both used axes and they live and fight in very similar ways to wood elves. As to axes not being graceful weapons they certainly can be. Reduce the size of the axe and you can perform feats of "axeplay" with ease. Has anyone watched vikings? They use axes with skill and speed, maybe a bit more brute strength than a wood elf would use but still.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Tethlis »

I also don't see any conflict with axes. In reality, what we think of as an "axe" can be subdivided into a lot of different weapon types. A hatchet versus a tomahawk versus a two-handed battleaxe versus a woodsman's axe... I also think it's a very practical weapon for Wood Elves, no question.

That being said, swords and spears work as well. Those weapons were staples of warfare in Ulthuan, and while that era is obviously long past, I have to believe that heirlooms, martial traditions, etc. have been handed down in one form or another for both kindreds and family bands.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by dusk1983 »

I think the main thrust of the "anti-axe" argument is not so much "living in harmony with nature and all that hippy dross". At the end of the day, Athel Loren is in and of itself sentient, and if it's primal intelligence has associated the *form* of the axe type weapon and anyone wielding one as a threat then I believe that no matter how practical the weapon itself is, the Asrai wouldn't risk upsetting the delicate symbiotic relationship they have with the forest. If there was a single weapon shape that could have this kind of impact on the consciousness of the forest I think an axe would be the most likely candidate.

Then, even not including the consciousness of the forest itself, the fact that there are fully sentient treemen and dryads who have seen their brethren and their beloved forest come under attack by ignorant outsiders mostly wielding axes (albeit tree hewing axes rather than ones forged specifically for battle), some individual forest spirits could have a violent instinctive reaction to the sight of such weapons (I believe in the fluff of the current book, Durthu was scarred terribly from dwarf axes- or was that Coeddil?) just like a man mauled by a dog would have a reaction of some sort to the sound of a dog barking or growling. Again, I think the potential for misunderstanding from a diplomatic point of view would far outweigh the practical benefits.

I've always seen Athel Loren as a body, with the Asrai considered "good bacteria". If the forest instead begins identifying them as a parasite or disease, the immune system would kick in. (dryads, treemen, etc. instead of white blood cells of course)

All that said, from an aesthetic perspective I don't really care one way or another. The fluff has undoubtedly changed anyway, but I thought I'd weigh in on my two cents. Plus Bill just hit 1000 comments, so I'm feeling a bit guilty about how much I lurk but don't comment.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by kadeton »

It's perhaps also worth noting that burning lots of wood for charcoal to fuel forges might not be necessary now that Wood Elves have access to Fire and Metal magic. :wink:
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