Asrai - Axes or Swords

Discuss anything related to the Asrai, our forests, or camps around the Old World in here.

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irishfarmer
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by irishfarmer »

dusk1983 wrote:I think the main thrust of the "anti-axe" argument is not so much "living in harmony with nature and all that hippy dross". At the end of the day, Athel Loren is in and of itself sentient, and if it's primal intelligence has associated the *form* of the axe type weapon and anyone wielding one as a threat then I believe that no matter how practical the weapon itself is, the Asrai wouldn't risk upsetting the delicate symbiotic relationship they have with the forest. If there was a single weapon shape that could have this kind of impact on the consciousness of the forest I think an axe would be the most likely candidate.

Then, even not including the consciousness of the forest itself, the fact that there are fully sentient treemen and dryads who have seen their brethren and their beloved forest come under attack by ignorant outsiders mostly wielding axes (albeit tree hewing axes rather than ones forged specifically for battle), some individual forest spirits could have a violent instinctive reaction to the sight of such weapons (I believe in the fluff of the current book, Durthu was scarred terribly from dwarf axes- or was that Coeddil?) just like a man mauled by a dog would have a reaction of some sort to the sound of a dog barking or growling. Again, I think the potential for misunderstanding from a diplomatic point of view would far outweigh the practical benefits.

I've always seen Athel Loren as a body, with the Asrai considered "good bacteria". If the forest instead begins identifying them as a parasite or disease, the immune system would kick in. (dryads, treemen, etc. instead of white blood cells of course)

All that said, from an aesthetic perspective I don't really care one way or another. The fluff has undoubtedly changed anyway, but I thought I'd weigh in on my two cents. Plus Bill just hit 1000 comments, so I'm feeling a bit guilty about how much I lurk but don't comment.
I tend to agree with Dusk on this one. Consider how the three Hunters, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli handled wood when they were on the edges of Fangorn in Two Towers. No chopping trees, and only gathering what the trees had "let fall." Axes and fire had been used as a "weapon of terror" against the Old Forest by the Hobbits, when the trees encroached on the border of the shire, as referred to in Fellowship of the Ring. Axes and reckless chopping were very much on tree beard's mind when he called the entmoot in Two Towers. Treebeard's eyes apparently "goggled" a bit when Gimli's axe fell out (convenient wardrobe malfunction!) when being introduced to each other at Isengard.

I do understand the celtic theme thing, and I will of course, be fine if there are axes for wood elves in the new book: its what GW has given. But if the design team had asked ME (Hahaha on that!) than I would have said they ought to stick with the historical weapons of elves: Spear, Bow, Sword.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Samoht »

irishfarmer wrote:
dusk1983 wrote:I think the main thrust of the "anti-axe" argument is not so much "living in harmony with nature and all that hippy dross". At the end of the day, Athel Loren is in and of itself sentient, and if it's primal intelligence has associated the *form* of the axe type weapon and anyone wielding one as a threat then I believe that no matter how practical the weapon itself is, the Asrai wouldn't risk upsetting the delicate symbiotic relationship they have with the forest. If there was a single weapon shape that could have this kind of impact on the consciousness of the forest I think an axe would be the most likely candidate.

Then, even not including the consciousness of the forest itself, the fact that there are fully sentient treemen and dryads who have seen their brethren and their beloved forest come under attack by ignorant outsiders mostly wielding axes (albeit tree hewing axes rather than ones forged specifically for battle), some individual forest spirits could have a violent instinctive reaction to the sight of such weapons (I believe in the fluff of the current book, Durthu was scarred terribly from dwarf axes- or was that Coeddil?) just like a man mauled by a dog would have a reaction of some sort to the sound of a dog barking or growling. Again, I think the potential for misunderstanding from a diplomatic point of view would far outweigh the practical benefits.

I've always seen Athel Loren as a body, with the Asrai considered "good bacteria". If the forest instead begins identifying them as a parasite or disease, the immune system would kick in. (dryads, treemen, etc. instead of white blood cells of course)

All that said, from an aesthetic perspective I don't really care one way or another. The fluff has undoubtedly changed anyway, but I thought I'd weigh in on my two cents. Plus Bill just hit 1000 comments, so I'm feeling a bit guilty about how much I lurk but don't comment.
I tend to agree with Dusk on this one. Consider how the three Hunters, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli handled wood when they were on the edges of Fangorn in Two Towers. No chopping trees, and only gathering what the trees had "let fall." Axes and fire had been used as a "weapon of terror" against the Old Forest by the Hobbits, when the trees encroached on the border of the shire, as referred to in Fellowship of the Ring. Axes and reckless chopping were very much on tree beard's mind when he called the entmoot in Two Towers. Treebeard's eyes apparently "goggled" a bit when Gimli's axe fell out (convenient wardrobe malfunction!) when being introduced to each other at Isengard.

I do understand the celtic theme thing, and I will of course, be fine if there are axes for wood elves in the new book: its what GW has given. But if the design team had asked ME (Hahaha on that!) than I would have said they ought to stick with the historical weapons of elves: Spear, Bow, Sword.
This is pretty much what I had previously felt too, but comparisons with LotR is probably not a great thing to focus too much on, both from the fact that GW need and tend to make clear distinctions between the two worlds, but also because, although I am a huge Tolkien fan, it does tend to both drive and limit our imagination and reference of these fantasy worlds. It's so hard to not think of Tolkien when dealing with elves, orcs, and hobbits. Orcs & goblins are a great example, the Warhammer ones are quite different from the Tolkien and movie versions and all the better and more diverse for it.

In terms of Warhammer Wood Elves, some of the forest spirits may have a fear of axes, but they may also fully appreciate their uses in defence and reduced metal and fire requirements. Conversely it does also increase the simmering disharmony in the woods theme that has been pushed to give the fluff a bit more of an interesting edge.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by irishfarmer »

Samoht wrote:
This is pretty much what I had previously felt too, but comparisons with LotR is probably not a great thing to focus too much on, both from the fact that GW need and tend to make clear distinctions between the two worlds, but also because, although I am a huge Tolkien fan, it does tend to both drive and limit our imagination and reference of these fantasy worlds. It's so hard to not think of Tolkien when dealing with elves, orcs, and hobbits. Orcs & goblins are a great example, the Warhammer ones are quite different from the Tolkien and movie versions and all the better and more diverse for it.

In terms of Warhammer Wood Elves, some of the forest spirits may have a fear of axes, but they may also fully appreciate their uses in defence and reduced metal and fire requirements. Conversely it does also increase the simmering disharmony in the woods theme that has been pushed to give the fluff a bit more of an interesting edge.
Certainly they are different, however it is inescapably true that WH is derived from LoTR and owes much of the many things we assume about such creatures, the archetypes, to Tolkien. Orcs are crazy chaotics, hobbits eat a lot, different varieties of elves, Dwarves hunger for vengeance, etc. just for starters. Where WH tends to depart, its via the warping characteristics of the chaos that his infiltrated its milieu, changing the psychology of its creatures. Tolkien's high elves, at least by the third age, are comparatively mild creatures that are given to song rather than to war. WH's have been made arrogant by the intrusion of chaos.

This might be an avenue to justify the use of axes, I suppose.

And you can't dismiss the currently established history. To the elvish mind, the separation of the races has not really been all THAT long ago, given the long lives of their race. They were a swords and spear race then. No reason why such traditions should not continue now. However, that is also making an assumption that the currently established back story remains the same. It may very well be changed in the current book. But as I said before, I will play it the way it is. The way of the wood elf is ultimately not decided by a sword or an axe. Its the connection it has for the forest, and the love hate relationship the forest has toward them. And unless a great deal is changed, I am guessing the bow will remain the visible sign of the wood elf gone to war more than either of those hand held weapons anyway. I certainly hope it shall be so. But again…I will play it the way GW deals it.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Personally I don't mind asrai having and using axes, especially in the mixed weapons sense. I do think that sword, spear and bow should be the main weapons they use. While I love swords, logically I think the spear and bow should really be the main choices, with swords more as side arms.

Now, on the other hand, if they start giving Asrai weapons like morningstar, mace etc I will have serious concerns.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by godswearhats »

Dusk,

I think your point is a good one. Bear in mind, though, that there are plenty of denizens of Athel Loren who see the Asrai as a negative thing, whether they're wielding swords OR axes :-)
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by wildZguy09 »

Although dusk has a good point, if i was a tree :) and it was a choice of killed by dwarfs or see an elf wield an axe in defense of me well you know were that's going. Maybe trees have PTSD flashbacks when they saw an axe cut down their buddy (i mean no offence by this) but who knows they are trees albeit sentient. Personally i am pretty certain they wouldn't mind but that's my opinion.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by dusk1983 »

godswearhats wrote:Dusk,

I think your point is a good one. Bear in mind, though, that there are plenty of denizens of Athel Loren who see the Asrai as a negative thing, whether they're wielding swords OR axes :-)
Those individual creatures and spirits are held in check by the majority of others of their kind who disagree. But these anti-elf individuals would leap at any chance to turn popular opinion to their point of view. An example might read something like this.

Drycha: See, Sisters!? Older brothers!? The fleshlings wield the weapons of our enemies! They will wait for the winter snows to fall and then murder us while we sleep through the cold cycles, when we are least able to defend ourselves! They will hew and cut and murder our home, our family, just like the other fleshlings that have come in the past! They are no different! Deceivers! Plunderers! Let our wrath fall upon them whilst they mince their weak flesh words! Snuff out the flames of life before they blaze unhindered throughout the boughs and wild places! Places that are ours! They were ours and only ours once, and can be so again!

Axe-Elf: Wha? Nah, man. Bitch be trippin. These are just for killin stuff. I gots 2 cause they look the tits.

Drycha: See how they lie, even when caught with a treekiller in it's hand! You would trust our future to these simpering weaklings? Follow me brethren! Follow me to the liberation of our home! Follow me to the extermination of the filthy disease that has been allowed to spread for too long! Our home is rife with their pestilence, and we must cut this rot away before it weakens us all! To battle!

Assorted hordes of now convinced treefolk: Kill the elves! Yay! Cut their ears off and eat pie! Huzzah!

Ace-Elf: Balls.
...So if you're addressing me direct, just call me Lance or Dusk, no 1983 please.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Odinsleepwalker »

Blackcat wrote:Personally I dont think wood elves should be using any sort of metals at all other than what can be crafted without fire. My wood elf army is currently using stone arrow heads and spear heads and no metal of any sort for fighting.

But....

Thematically axes make sense. Historically, as has been said already, the celts and the native Americans both used axes and they live and fight in very similar ways to wood elves. As to axes not being graceful weapons they certainly can be. Reduce the size of the axe and you can perform feats of "axeplay" with ease. Has anyone watched vikings? They use axes with skill and speed, maybe a bit more brute strength than a wood elf would use but still.
I'd have to agree with this. The stone arrow heads and such makes perfect sense.

The forging of such weapons as swords and axes by WE seems difficult to figure though. But, the nice thing about fantasy anything is that, in the end, none of it is real. :D

Personally, the way I like to rationalize the Wood Elf axes would be that they're made/re-forged from looted weapons. I'd imagine quite a few Beastmen get dropped in Athel Loren. Then their blacksmiths just do all their forging just outside the woods. haha
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Or the forging is done magically, how I always imagined elves making blades.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Caranthir Ciryatan »

The fluff for the Asrai way back was that the majority of the hardy colonist that decided to remain in the Old World where mainly from the forested regions of Ulthuan, Avelorn and Chrace. So the addition of axes to spears and bows make more sense.

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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by hutobega »

Dusk I just died reading your post. Lol and wait... did you change your name? Or does your avatars remind me of someone else!!!!!! Lol
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by dusk1983 »

hutobega wrote:Dusk I just died reading your post. Lol and wait... did you change your name? Or does your avatars remind me of someone else!!!!!! Lol
Nosir Hutobega! I've been Dusk for as long as I've been old enough to get onto the interwebs. :-)

I imagine you're confusing with Bill who has Statler as his avatar picture whilst I have Waldorf. (We're both old and cranky, but he tends to be a fair bit more clever than I)

But I'm glad you got a kick out of it.
...So if you're addressing me direct, just call me Lance or Dusk, no 1983 please.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by Billthesurly »

We are twins who were seperated at birth. Explains why we tend to think alike. I'm cranky because I'm older. He's cranky because he lives on the bottom of the world and all the blood pools in his head. :D
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by frogboy »

I thought the rumour was that Bill you took too much Cowbell back in the day which resulted in crankiness and dusk got bitten by a Red Back which frizzled his brain, resulting in crankiness...
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by overtninja »

Whatever the reason for having axes or swords (or whatever those things are), they'll certainly help us out! Everyone needs something to actually menace all those 1+ or 2+ armor saves running around. I'd imagine we'll be fielding them like swordmasters in smaller groups to get choppy on things, since they'll probably be a bit pricey.
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Re: Asrai - Axes or Swords

Post by dusk1983 »

overtninja wrote:Whatever the reason for having axes or swords (or whatever those things are), they'll certainly help us out! Everyone needs something to actually menace all those 1+ or 2+ armor saves running around. I'd imagine we'll be fielding them like swordmasters in smaller groups to get choppy on things, since they'll probably be a bit pricey.
My completely unfounded or lacking any basis in fact opinion is that they'll be 12 points at most. Why? Theyre new. GW will want us to field full armies of their Axe-o-nauts, so they'll be seven kinds of awesome in the rules.
...So if you're addressing me direct, just call me Lance or Dusk, no 1983 please.
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