Project Manticore: FOC

Post ideas and develop rules or stats for whatever you want in here. Asrai units as well as other races

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Hyarion
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Project Manticore: FOC

Post by Hyarion »

Does anybody have opinions one way or another on the pros and cons of 8th edition's switch to percentages vs 7th edition's unit slots? Would they be better off combined?

Would it be better off to say something along the lines of:
< 2000pts: 0 Lord choices, 2+ Core units at a minimum of 25% TP (total points)
2000+: 0-1 Lord not to exceed 25% TP, 3+ Core units at a minimum of 25% TP
3000+: 0-2 Lords not to exceed 25% TP, 4+ Core units at a minimum of 25% TP
etc....

Does it also make sense to add slots for other things? Like warmachines? Wizard levels? Ranged attacks (as a percentage of models or even wounds)?
Should Lords and Heroes occupy the same percentage pool of points? Right now, Lords can take up 25% of an army, and heroes an additional 25%, should they be combined to one pool ~33%? Or maybe just under a certain threshhold?

I really liked 8th edition's percentages because you couldn't just make minimum sized units of cheap core troops and then max out on special/rare/characters.
On the other hand, 7th edition's unit slots allowed you to field a unit of whatever size you felt appropriate, provided you could afford such a unit without regard to proportion.
7th edition's slots were also good in restricting armies with cheap heroes capable of disproportionate effects (night goblin shamans and skaven warplock engineers) from dominating low point games.

Let me know what you think!
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frogboy
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Re: Project Manticore: FOC

Post by frogboy »

I loved my Chaos Army in 7th edition, minimum core meant 3 units of marauder horsemen :D

I think percentages also stop abuse in the other way, so no massive blocks of trolls for example

There's pros and cons for both but it mostly depends on what army your playing as well.
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Re: Project Manticore: FOC

Post by Aezeal »

I don't know project manticore but I guess it's something of a new game or new rules for warhammer?

I thikn %-tages give harder boundries so less abusable. I think the straight up percentages will be easier to work with than the table you posted since it's just easier to work with and that has a certain appeal.

I think where you put the lords/hero's cut off point depends on a few things:
- It hardly matters if all armies have access to strong lords
- It's probably more how you want to play the game... if you want a game with an emphasis on lords/monsters (age of sigmar) then you put it higher, if you prefer to play with rank and file troops you put it lower.

I think too much categories will not make it easier. I've never really seen why certain units where special or rare in warhammer, often special units where better than rare ones. I guess it limited both of them to just spam 75% with the same unit but that was the only use I saw in it.

I think
Lords and heroes should preferably go together but that will only work if heroes are worth their points and people will not just go all lords if you do this (a balancing act).
I think another slot could be rank and file troops which should include most units with more than 1 model
Then lastly a monster/warmachine slot (assuming those powerlevels are somewhat equal too).

To prevent spam of an overpowered unit you might want to add a maximum of a certain unit per 1000 points.
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Re: Project Manticore: FOC

Post by Hyarion »

Thanks for the reply Frogboy!

It's easy enough to give individual armies slight variations in their Org Chart (like with High Elves having extra special/rare slots), do you think it would be too confusing to have some armies work on a percentage and some armies work on a slot basis? Or would that be too confusing?
The Warrior of the Silver Flame
I hold the Glaive of Law against the Earth.

If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.

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Re: Project Manticore: FOC

Post by frogboy »

I believe the reason behind having rare and special is based on a background or fluff reason, but then I never read all the books so maybe i'm wrong.

Having percentages on one and slots on another could work but would need a lot of play testing or at least more theory hammer, I guess (but you'd run the risk of letting your personal opinions influence which you think is best for each army). Personally I prefer the slots but perhaps you could have minimums and not maximums (that would be my personal preference too) then you have more options to field what you like, but also run the risk of list abuse and spam lists.

I guess it all depends on who the rule set is designed for, if it's for you and some friends you can leave it open a little more.

Just some thoughts :D
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Re: Project Manticore: FOC

Post by Aezeal »

If you want a certain amount of core and you want to work with slots you just need to make the minimum unit size bigger or more slots.

2 slots at 15 GG or EG min per unit per 2000 points.. or 3 slots of 10 GG/EG per 2000 points.

It would still allow deathstars form special or rare though: 1 slots could be 1 HUGE unit of the strongest models if there is nothing to limit unit size. That is why %-tage seem so easy to use.
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Re: Project Manticore: FOC

Post by captkurt »

Percentages are the fairest way to go. That way it does not matter what you do within those percentages. However you can still adjust those on a per army basis if needed.

For example if the default is
Lords/Heroes max 25%
Core min 25%, 2+ units
Special max 25%
Rare max 25%

For example the Classic High Elf might be simply be changed to:

Lords/Heroes max 25%
Core min 10%, 1+ units
Special max 50%
Rare max 25%
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Re: Project Manticore: FOC

Post by Hyarion »

Thanks for the feedback. Why do you think slots are unfair by comparison, I could just as easily say that with slots every army has to build the same way. I'm not trying to argue, I just want to hear your points against also.

What do you think about having Lords and Heroes pulling from the same pool?
The Warrior of the Silver Flame
I hold the Glaive of Law against the Earth.

If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.

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Re: Project Manticore: FOC

Post by frogboy »

I used to like slots, but then I always took a range of stuff, I always found writing a list with percentages really hard and took ages as I was always trying to shoe horn everything in I wanted to play with. What's wrong with wanting a super bad lord and a caster? ;)

That's my argument for slots :D

Which pool would you have the characters pulling from? If core would that mean limiting the core pool in order to restrict stuff as well?

Personally I'm not a fan of restrictions
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Hyarion
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Re: Project Manticore: FOC

Post by Hyarion »

Rather than Lord choices being <25% and Hero choices being a separate <25%, so that your army could be 50% characters, maybe Lords and Heroes could both occupy the same allotment of points, to just pick a number, let's say 33%.

So a 2000 point army would mean you have 667 points to spend on characters in whatever way you so choose, some Lords and some heros, all lords, all heroes, whatever; that's all I mean by same pool.
The Warrior of the Silver Flame
I hold the Glaive of Law against the Earth.

If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.

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