Artisan's Contest April 2015 [VOTING] Aezeal Wins
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- frogboy
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Artisan's Contest April 2015 [VOTING] Aezeal Wins
Hi,
So the contest is over, 4 of us entered this month which I'm happy about as it's the first one in a long time so some of you may have missed it.
This thread will be open for a week or there about's for discussion and feedback. Try to keep it positive. In a weeks time I will ask you all to vote for your favourite by attaching a poll to the top.
Here's the link to the entry's
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=28616
So my entry is all about giving the Army list a better hoard option, stick the item on a Character and put him in a Wild Wood ranger unit or Eternal Guard unit with enough models to not care about casualties then there harder hitting with the frenzy and plus 1 strength.
Discuss...
So the contest is over, 4 of us entered this month which I'm happy about as it's the first one in a long time so some of you may have missed it.
This thread will be open for a week or there about's for discussion and feedback. Try to keep it positive. In a weeks time I will ask you all to vote for your favourite by attaching a poll to the top.
Here's the link to the entry's
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=28616
So my entry is all about giving the Army list a better hoard option, stick the item on a Character and put him in a Wild Wood ranger unit or Eternal Guard unit with enough models to not care about casualties then there harder hitting with the frenzy and plus 1 strength.
Discuss...
Its been too long since we burned a heretic, witch hunt anyone !??
sentinalofthewoods wrote:yes, unicorn riders that shoot rainbows..hell yeah
- Hyarion
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
I have a question about nXken's Ironbark item:
Can the armor save from the Ironbark be improved by the normal means? Would a Wood Elf Captain wearing Ironbark, a regular shield, and mounted have a 1+ save that would drop to a 5+ armor save after an unsaved flaming wound?
And several about Furyou Miko's Incisor:
Do you brush and floss every day? Sorry, wrong incisor....
Does the Heroic Killing Blow also apply to the Incisor's ranged attack?
May a model with Incisor and a longbow make an attack with each? or may the model choose which weapon to make a ranged attack with? Or does this fall under the "a model with a magical weapon must use it" rule?
Can the armor save from the Ironbark be improved by the normal means? Would a Wood Elf Captain wearing Ironbark, a regular shield, and mounted have a 1+ save that would drop to a 5+ armor save after an unsaved flaming wound?
And several about Furyou Miko's Incisor:
Do you brush and floss every day? Sorry, wrong incisor....
Does the Heroic Killing Blow also apply to the Incisor's ranged attack?
May a model with Incisor and a longbow make an attack with each? or may the model choose which weapon to make a ranged attack with? Or does this fall under the "a model with a magical weapon must use it" rule?
The Warrior of the Silver Flame
I hold the Glaive of Law against the Earth.
If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.
I hold the Glaive of Law against the Earth.
If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
For clarification on my item: You can only pick ONE of the traps when they are activated.
Incisor
1. has stuff that don't fit with WE: strenght 4 throw attack seems odd for elves and I think there is a reason our army doesn't have HKB attacks
2. I think ranged HKB attacks should not exist at all
3. if you accept all the things it does it's way undercosted
Ironbark
1. GIves an armor save I think the WE specifically don't have (we can use it ofc.. it would be nice, but I think it doesn't fit in our army list as it's written now - the fluff you made around it is nice though, but i"m not buying it)
Wild Wood Sap
1. I think giving a unit +1 strenght isn't "elfy"
2. I think having stuff that does damage to your own unit isn't very "elfy" either (fits orc and goblins or Chaos better).
3. I don't get the word "open" in the item description.
Waystalker Traps:
1. Are awesome
2. So very fluffy (both in this codex and expecially the older ones)
3. Is nicely balanced (points, damage and the limits on it's use
4. has a bit much tekst in the rules part.. but I think it works pretty intuitively.
Questions and/or remarks (critisism) for me/on my item? SHOOOOOT
(/me hides in a forest and sets Waystalker Traps all around)
Incisor
1. has stuff that don't fit with WE: strenght 4 throw attack seems odd for elves and I think there is a reason our army doesn't have HKB attacks
2. I think ranged HKB attacks should not exist at all
3. if you accept all the things it does it's way undercosted
Ironbark
1. GIves an armor save I think the WE specifically don't have (we can use it ofc.. it would be nice, but I think it doesn't fit in our army list as it's written now - the fluff you made around it is nice though, but i"m not buying it)
Wild Wood Sap
1. I think giving a unit +1 strenght isn't "elfy"
2. I think having stuff that does damage to your own unit isn't very "elfy" either (fits orc and goblins or Chaos better).
3. I don't get the word "open" in the item description.
Waystalker Traps:
1. Are awesome
2. So very fluffy (both in this codex and expecially the older ones)
3. Is nicely balanced (points, damage and the limits on it's use
4. has a bit much tekst in the rules part.. but I think it works pretty intuitively.
Questions and/or remarks (critisism) for me/on my item? SHOOOOOT
(/me hides in a forest and sets Waystalker Traps all around)
- frogboy
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
Elfy ? There's loads of stuff which give us extra strength, the old longbow was Strength 4 at short range, we have double handed weapons, spears and magic.Wild Wood Sap
1. I think giving a unit +1 strenght isn't "elfy"
2. I think having stuff that does damage to your own unit isn't very "elfy" either (fits orc and goblins or Chaos better).
3. I don't get the word "open" in the item description.
Well doing damage to owning unit to compromise for points cost. Also the sap is from the edge of the wild wood. Seems fluffy enough to me
The word open is in reference to the the little jar which the sap is carried in. Read the discription
Thanks for entering everyone, it's something I used to enjoy when I first joined the forum so glad we've brought it back. I really enjoyed seeing everyone's entry this time and let's hope we can get even more intrest in the next one
Its been too long since we burned a heretic, witch hunt anyone !??
sentinalofthewoods wrote:yes, unicorn riders that shoot rainbows..hell yeah
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
@Hyarion you are correct, sir.
I really like the very fluffy traps. Gj Aezeal
I really like the very fluffy traps. Gj Aezeal
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
I like the competition. Will there be one for May or do we have to wait till June?frogboy wrote:Elfy ? There's loads of stuff which give us extra strength, the old longbow was Strength 4 at short range, we have double handed weapons, spears and magic.Wild Wood Sap
1. I think giving a unit +1 strenght isn't "elfy"
2. I think having stuff that does damage to your own unit isn't very "elfy" either (fits orc and goblins or Chaos better).
3. I don't get the word "open" in the item description.
Well doing damage to owning unit to compromise for points cost. Also the sap is from the edge of the wild wood. Seems fluffy enough to me
The word open is in reference to the the little jar which the sap is carried in. Read the discription
Thanks for entering everyone, it's something I used to enjoy when I first joined the forum so glad we've brought it back. I really enjoyed seeing everyone's entry this time and let's hope we can get even more intrest in the next one
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
Yeah a scaly skin can be further improved.. and a 1+ REALLY isn't fitting for WE.nXken wrote:@Hyarion you are correct, sir.
I really like the very fluffy traps. Gj Aezeal
- frogboy
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
Maybe do one straight after this but run it for three weeks
Its been too long since we burned a heretic, witch hunt anyone !??
sentinalofthewoods wrote:yes, unicorn riders that shoot rainbows..hell yeah
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
would be fun.
Who are the judges btw, is it votes from everyone or votes from a team of specialists, or just a single person like you or naggie.
Who are the judges btw, is it votes from everyone or votes from a team of specialists, or just a single person like you or naggie.
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
My vote is for the Incisor.
Since it cost 20 points, means my waystalker can get all the special rules for his sniper shots. Note that the rules doesnt say that the effects only apply to attacks made with incisor.
1. Heroic killing blow is nice against monsters and characters.
2. Reroll to hit and attack against one target(enemy general or only mage comes to mind).
bonus for the combo of getting to reroll to wound and heroic killing blow. and a good chance of getting some hit with rerolls to hit too.
Since it cost 20 points, means my waystalker can get all the special rules for his sniper shots. Note that the rules doesnt say that the effects only apply to attacks made with incisor.
1. Heroic killing blow is nice against monsters and characters.
2. Reroll to hit and attack against one target(enemy general or only mage comes to mind).
bonus for the combo of getting to reroll to wound and heroic killing blow. and a good chance of getting some hit with rerolls to hit too.
- frogboy
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
There will be a poll the same way we do the Painting & Modelling Challange, I will add the poll to the top of this thread in a few days.Aezeal wrote:would be fun.
Who are the judges btw, is it votes from everyone or votes from a team of specialists, or just a single person like you or naggie.
Its been too long since we burned a heretic, witch hunt anyone !??
sentinalofthewoods wrote:yes, unicorn riders that shoot rainbows..hell yeah
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
Well I'd certainly LIKE to have the incisor in my army book.. it would make a waystalker an auto include I think. But that isn't really the main criterium for this competition... I recall reading about fluff, fitting the armybook, balance etc etc. Having said that what do you think about my arguments that it's (way) overpowered/undercosted at 20 points. (I'll not further bother you again with all my arguments why it's not fluffy or fitting in a WE book).Rafiki wrote:My vote is for the Incisor.
Since it cost 20 points, means my waystalker can get all the special rules for his sniper shots. Note that the rules doesnt say that the effects only apply to attacks made with incisor.
1. Heroic killing blow is nice against monsters and characters.
2. Reroll to hit and attack against one target(enemy general or only mage comes to mind).
bonus for the combo of getting to reroll to wound and heroic killing blow. and a good chance of getting some hit with rerolls to hit too.
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
Its overpowered for its cost no questions asked, those rules for 20 points. Sure it disappears if you remove the biggest threat your opponent has, but it might actually make it possible for a waystalker to kill a lord = autoinclude.
but seriously the RNG must hate the wood elves, it seems to me that almost all other armies get handed some overpowered items/unit, which begs to be abused.
I can understand that some items might slip through the mathhammer at Games workshop, but seems every thing wood elves got was powered on the far side of caution.
but seriously the RNG must hate the wood elves, it seems to me that almost all other armies get handed some overpowered items/unit, which begs to be abused.
I can understand that some items might slip through the mathhammer at Games workshop, but seems every thing wood elves got was powered on the far side of caution.
- Baardah
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
I really don't get the 1+ AS is so unfluffy argument. Protection from harm can come from so many different things in a fantasy setting. I can think of a thousand plausible reasons for a wood elf to have a heavy armour save without wearing heavy armour.
Anything from an amulet emanating a forcefield, to magical hard as nails knitted sweaters to magical warp ain't to......well I can't type down all the thousand reasons.
I agree that a wood elf in a tin can knights armour is unfluffy, but a magical piece of leather armour giving the elf a 1+ AS isn't necessarily unfluffy.
The AS is just a mechanic. With could easily have been called something else. Like damage threshold or something. A Saurus is actually but naked and still has an armour save without a single piece of armour on it.
It's just easier to call it an armorsave rather than give it another name and another rule that would still be determined by the role of a D6 +/- modifiers...
So something making it very hard to damage an elf gives him a high armorsave. Doesn't even have to be a piece of metal wrapped around any part of his body.
Anything from an amulet emanating a forcefield, to magical hard as nails knitted sweaters to magical warp ain't to......well I can't type down all the thousand reasons.
I agree that a wood elf in a tin can knights armour is unfluffy, but a magical piece of leather armour giving the elf a 1+ AS isn't necessarily unfluffy.
The AS is just a mechanic. With could easily have been called something else. Like damage threshold or something. A Saurus is actually but naked and still has an armour save without a single piece of armour on it.
It's just easier to call it an armorsave rather than give it another name and another rule that would still be determined by the role of a D6 +/- modifiers...
So something making it very hard to damage an elf gives him a high armorsave. Doesn't even have to be a piece of metal wrapped around any part of his body.
My summer night wood elves
Drstrangelove wrote:Imagine a magic item. For 20 points you get +4M, Vanguard, extra +1 to your armour save, unlimited free reforms, and an extra S3 attack at I4.
That item would be in every list.
That item is a horse...
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
I agree you have written a very fitting way to give the WE a 1+ AS. I just think the 1+ AS is not in line with the armybook we currently have and doesn't really fit out army in that way. WE are just low T, easily damaged etc etc. Basicly the same thing I said about frogboys sap (and he didn't agree with that either so it's probably just me).Baardah wrote:I really don't get the 1+ AS is so unfluffy argument. Protection from harm can come from so many different things in a fantasy setting. I can think of a thousand plausible reasons for a wood elf to have a heavy armour save without wearing heavy armour.
Anything from an amulet emanating a forcefield, to magical hard as nails knitted sweaters to magical warp ain't to......well I can't type down all the thousand reasons.
I agree that a wood elf in a tin can knights armour is unfluffy, but a magical piece of leather armour giving the elf a 1+ AS isn't necessarily unfluffy.
The AS is just a mechanic. With could easily have been called something else. Like damage threshold or something. A Saurus is actually but naked and still has an armour save without a single piece of armour on it.
It's just easier to call it an armorsave rather than give it another name and another rule that would still be determined by the role of a D6 +/- modifiers...
So something making it very hard to damage an elf gives him a high armorsave. Doesn't even have to be a piece of metal wrapped around any part of his body.
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
Well armour save might not be fluffy, but ward saves could easily have been used, like with the forest spirit and talismanic tatooes.
The new army book comes off as quite dark fairytale magical forest, so big suits of armour does seem a bit off.
on another note, im quite surprised to see no one made a banner for this contest.
The new army book comes off as quite dark fairytale magical forest, so big suits of armour does seem a bit off.
on another note, im quite surprised to see no one made a banner for this contest.
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
Well.. only 4 entries..and those are pretty spread out amongst possible magic items.
I do agree wardsaves and -1 to hit seem about the only defensive options fitting our current book.
I do agree wardsaves and -1 to hit seem about the only defensive options fitting our current book.
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
I approched this competition from the angle: What do we lack?
I then tried to fluff it up... Using pieces of bark didn't seem to unfluffy... Even regarding to Asrai history.
It's true that iron/steel/gromril (or even the elven forged metal, can't find the name) has no place in our armybook. Not this one, not the former, not ever.
But to shoot an item down just because it confers a mechanic we haven't got in our AB is just silly.
Heroic Killing blow on an arrow? Sure! I'll take it any day! But come on... I can't see a Dragon-Ogre (e.g.) dieing to 1 (however well-aimed) arrow...
I, for one, liked to read all the entries and saw the use, fluff and advantages/intents of the creator in each. I don't think any one item to be badly-designed. (except from a couple of tweaks )
I then tried to fluff it up... Using pieces of bark didn't seem to unfluffy... Even regarding to Asrai history.
It's true that iron/steel/gromril (or even the elven forged metal, can't find the name) has no place in our armybook. Not this one, not the former, not ever.
But to shoot an item down just because it confers a mechanic we haven't got in our AB is just silly.
Heroic Killing blow on an arrow? Sure! I'll take it any day! But come on... I can't see a Dragon-Ogre (e.g.) dieing to 1 (however well-aimed) arrow...
I, for one, liked to read all the entries and saw the use, fluff and advantages/intents of the creator in each. I don't think any one item to be badly-designed. (except from a couple of tweaks )
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
It's not shooting it down it's just the one point from the list below where I find the items a bit lacking
Use of Language (is it professionally written?): /10
• Playability (are the rules streamlined?): /10
• Balance (are the rules and points fair and do they adhere to typical GW design?): /10
• Fun (do the rules make for a fun experience?): /10
• Lore (are the rules fluffy and do they fit the character of the theme?): /10
I read the Balance part- typical to GW design - as: would it fit in the design of the current army book. Our current army book doesn't have high AS, only higher S shooting on the BoL and no HKB even on the shadowdancers. So I figure that is not how GW would have designed them for this book.
On most other points I find your item having a good score (though in balance of points I'm not convinced either... a 3++ scaly skin means that with a shield (cheap) it's already as good as an armor of silvered steel (45 point) and then you give a 6+ ward save (worth 15 points) and hatred vs demons. Ofcourse it has a downside but not enough to make it 25 points I'd say.
I do like your fluff (lore-wise and language) text a lot and I'd rate it highish there and the rules are streamlined (agains highish). Fun is a hard thing to rate.. not sure what would be exactly fun about it so somewhere in the middle ground there.
The same goes for the other items really basicly I only find that they wouldn't really fit in the current book. (and I find the incisor undercosted too).
Use of Language (is it professionally written?): /10
• Playability (are the rules streamlined?): /10
• Balance (are the rules and points fair and do they adhere to typical GW design?): /10
• Fun (do the rules make for a fun experience?): /10
• Lore (are the rules fluffy and do they fit the character of the theme?): /10
I read the Balance part- typical to GW design - as: would it fit in the design of the current army book. Our current army book doesn't have high AS, only higher S shooting on the BoL and no HKB even on the shadowdancers. So I figure that is not how GW would have designed them for this book.
On most other points I find your item having a good score (though in balance of points I'm not convinced either... a 3++ scaly skin means that with a shield (cheap) it's already as good as an armor of silvered steel (45 point) and then you give a 6+ ward save (worth 15 points) and hatred vs demons. Ofcourse it has a downside but not enough to make it 25 points I'd say.
I do like your fluff (lore-wise and language) text a lot and I'd rate it highish there and the rules are streamlined (agains highish). Fun is a hard thing to rate.. not sure what would be exactly fun about it so somewhere in the middle ground there.
The same goes for the other items really basicly I only find that they wouldn't really fit in the current book. (and I find the incisor undercosted too).
- frogboy
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
Here's my two pence (negative feedback)
So I like the iron bark, 3 plus save which is vulnerable to flaming attacks is alright, not over powerful and is something we are missing from the old book. Just not sure on the fluff. Treekin are reanimated bits of dead wood held together with magic and not living creatures I thought.
The waystalker traps don't sound like a magic item at all tbh, they sound more like a skill or a unit wide special rule rather than a magic item. Something we discussed about before the release of the new book when we were speculating what new skills did we want for waywatchers.
Incisor, unfortunately it's undercosted for me, I think heroic killing blow is very rare for a reason, sorry but not for 20 points and on a throwing knife. Also something we wished for and discussed to death before the release of the new book.
Which obviously just leaves my amazing (perfect) entry lol
So I like the iron bark, 3 plus save which is vulnerable to flaming attacks is alright, not over powerful and is something we are missing from the old book. Just not sure on the fluff. Treekin are reanimated bits of dead wood held together with magic and not living creatures I thought.
The waystalker traps don't sound like a magic item at all tbh, they sound more like a skill or a unit wide special rule rather than a magic item. Something we discussed about before the release of the new book when we were speculating what new skills did we want for waywatchers.
Incisor, unfortunately it's undercosted for me, I think heroic killing blow is very rare for a reason, sorry but not for 20 points and on a throwing knife. Also something we wished for and discussed to death before the release of the new book.
Which obviously just leaves my amazing (perfect) entry lol
Its been too long since we burned a heretic, witch hunt anyone !??
sentinalofthewoods wrote:yes, unicorn riders that shoot rainbows..hell yeah
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
These traps are more efficient than regular ones (which don't exist anymore.. but that isn't my fault ) "This is the ancient trapping kit of a nameless Waystalker, the kit is unadorned and simple but those who have used it have felt the blessing of Kurnous when placing their traps and when seeing the hated enemies of Athel Loren die in unanticipated numbers". It's a divinely blessed item and there are more of those things in magic items in our and other armies.frogboy wrote:Here's my two pence,
So I like the iron bark, 3 plus save which is vulnerable to flaming attacks is alright, not over powerful and is something we are missing from the old book. Just not sure on the fluff. Treekin are reanimated bits of dead wood held together with magic and not living creatures I thought.
The waystalker traps don't sound like a magic item at all tbh, they sound more like a skill or a unit wide special rule rather than a magic item. Something we discussed about before the release of the new book when we were speculating what new skills did we want for waywatchers.
Insissor, unfortunately it's undercosted for me, I think heroic killing blow is very rare for a reason, sorry but not for 20 points and on a throwing knife. Also something we wished for and discussed to death before the release of the new book.
Which obviously just leaves my amazing (perfect) entry lol
Which makes my item even more perfect
And incisor + waystalker: I mean there is a reason waystalkers can't even get the HodA, some combo's are even more powerfull than their seperate parts.
- frogboy
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
I know what your saying Aeseal and I understand that you have written it so that it is a magic item but because there was a rule like this before and there was a lot of discussion about traps in the past and wether we would get them it still feel like a special rule and not a magic item to me IMHO, still I'm not finding much else wrong with it which is anoying because I really wanted to win
The reason I like this game so much is the fact that there is no editing and you have to really think everything through before posting. It's not just like a normal post you have to get everything right before you click Submit. I think nXken your fluff could have done with a little more thought but apart from that it's great, well done
Now I don't know if I made this clear in my earlier post so let me just say that my favourite is Furyou Miko's Incisor. If the range was 6" and it was only availible to Waystalkers then I think it would have been perfect.
Still the fluff is great and the rules look to be precise, fair play you will have my vote
The reason I like this game so much is the fact that there is no editing and you have to really think everything through before posting. It's not just like a normal post you have to get everything right before you click Submit. I think nXken your fluff could have done with a little more thought but apart from that it's great, well done
Now I don't know if I made this clear in my earlier post so let me just say that my favourite is Furyou Miko's Incisor. If the range was 6" and it was only availible to Waystalkers then I think it would have been perfect.
Still the fluff is great and the rules look to be precise, fair play you will have my vote
Its been too long since we burned a heretic, witch hunt anyone !??
sentinalofthewoods wrote:yes, unicorn riders that shoot rainbows..hell yeah
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
I don't think we need more of the same... That's why the 4 items we have are so good!
There is nothing like them in the new (or old) book.
I also deem all of them worthy for an entry in a future armybook, after a couple of tweeks of course.
We'll see what the consortium thinks
There is nothing like them in the new (or old) book.
I also deem all of them worthy for an entry in a future armybook, after a couple of tweeks of course.
We'll see what the consortium thinks
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Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
actually now that i think about it, a 20 or 25 point item for wood elves that gives heroic killing blow or just killing blow, would be basically be an auto win here.
the whole omg reaction from people who read "snipe" on my waystalker and say crazy <b>[censored]</b>.
While i have done the math and know that i need 10-12 snipe shots, before i get a realistic chance to actually snipe his lord.
Is just really depressing, oh why oh why could they not have forgotten our good old killing blow on waywatchers and let them keep it.
the whole omg reaction from people who read "snipe" on my waystalker and say crazy <b>[censored]</b>.
While i have done the math and know that i need 10-12 snipe shots, before i get a realistic chance to actually snipe his lord.
Is just really depressing, oh why oh why could they not have forgotten our good old killing blow on waywatchers and let them keep it.
Re: Artisan's Contest April 2015 Discussion Thread
If he has a kitted lord with ward saves or T5 10-12 shots won't even be enough I'd guess probably 3+/4+ to hit (with BoL MS, snipe, long range), 6+ to wound, then ward save. And there are enough T 5 lord around.Rafiki wrote:actually now that i think about it, a 20 or 25 point item for wood elves that gives heroic killing blow or just killing blow, would be basically be an auto win here.
the whole omg reaction from people who read "snipe" on my waystalker and say crazy <b>[censored]</b>.
While i have done the math and know that i need 10-12 snipe shots, before i get a realistic chance to actually snipe his lord.
Is just really depressing, oh why oh why could they not have forgotten our good old killing blow on waywatchers and let them keep it.
I might take one + BoL against my DE or HE opponent next.. I think they usually don't get much saves on their mages and rely on being in a big unit . But for an all comers list I don't think they are worth it.. but this is a bit off topic.. though HKB on sniping stays way OP.