Our own cloak

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NonnoSte
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Our own cloak

Post by NonnoSte »

Hello everyone,
Since our book came out, I was bothered by something (probably a bit more than something, but there's no point in whining, right?).
The other elven races have their own special cloaks (White Lion cloak for HE and Sea Dragon Cloak for DE) so why couldn't we have one too?

Their two cloaks grant both an armour save bonus (the DE one almost at a silly level), but I think that this wouldn't be very Wood Elfy. I also think that the effective use of a cloak should be limited to work against ranged attacks only, since it seems weird parrying a club blow with a mantle (even better than a shield normally does).

To address these two features, I had in mind for it to confer a stealth bonus, something that woud help dodging enemy fire and this is what I came up with:

Hunter's Cloak:

Enemies shooting at models with this equipment suffer a -1 modifier to their to-hit rolls in addition to any other to-hit modifier. Models equipped with this cloak also benefit from a 4+ ward save against shooting attacks which don't roll to hit.

Basically a Pha's Protection / Iceshard Blizzard effect, where the first instance comes in play only if shooting against single models (including sniping) or units entirely equipped with the cloak.
Probably it's a bit on the OP edge, in fact my initial thought was to confer just a 5++, but in my invented ruleset Talismanic Tattoos worked like the mark of Tzeentch and was a mundane choice for characters too (the ward dance of WD conferred a 3++ including Tattoos).

How would you price that equipment? I think Waywatchers and Waystalkers should have it by default with just WW going up to 22ppm.
Then I'd give it to Captains and Lords for respectively 20 and 30 points. (it was 15 and 20 with just the 5++ with TT costing 10 pts for anyone).

What do you think? Does it look balanced?
It could make the Eagle Noble a strong choice again (it would free up his magic point allotment for offensive kits or even the Armour of Silvered Steel) and it would render the Dragon Lord or Stag Riders much more competitive choices.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Aezeal »

full 5++ ward save is like 30 points for a magic item right?

Then I think a -1 on BS shooting and a 4++ only against cannons (basicly) and nothing in melee or against magic is not worth 30 points or even 20 points (unless it would be HUGE cloak that could also cover the lords forest dragon). I think 10 points is enough.

I do think it's a bit to much for a regular cloak though. I think it fits beter as a magic item (it's not good enough to take the magic armor slot though so make it an enchanted item).
I think for WW it should just be the -1 to hit and a 6+ ward vs cannons and it should be free or like 1 point then.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by NonnoSte »

I actually didn't thought about it as a magical save conferred by mystical properties of the cloak, but more like something mimetic that makes the bearer hard to spot and therefore to hit by anything from distance.
The ward looked like being the only option against templates.

So do.you think that 30 pts is too much for Lords to take it?
May it be worth like the HE dragon armour?
It would be 10 pts for heroes and 20 for lords.
After all, we don't really need to get in combat if we don't want to.
I rate much more a ward save from range, where I prefer armour in combat.
An eagle noble with 2+ (AoSS) and this 4++ would be a balanced counterpart for the DE Cloak Pegmaster, costing even more
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Aezeal »

NonnoSte wrote:I actually didn't thought about it as a magical save conferred by mystical properties of the cloak, but more like something mimetic that makes the bearer hard to spot and therefore to hit by anything from distance.
The ward looked like being the only option against templates.

So do.you think that 30 pts is too much for Lords to take it?
May it be worth like the HE dragon armour?
It would be 10 pts for heroes and 20 for lords.
After all, we don't really need to get in combat if we don't want to.
I rate much more a ward save from range, where I prefer armour in combat.
An eagle noble with 2+ (AoSS) and this 4++ would be a balanced counterpart for the DE Cloak Pegmaster, costing even more
Lol this doesn't make sense. You say you wanted it to reflect lower visibility and then you say the ward is the only option agianst templates... and certainly for templates visibility isn't important.

I think the chances of me EVER taking a lord are near 0 but 10-20 point seems better. Some protection against magic would be even better :D. I'd not allow it though :D.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by frogboy »

NonnoSte, there is still time for you to enter your Cloak idea in the Artisans Contest here...

http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=28616
Its been too long since we burned a heretic, witch hunt anyone !??
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Cosmos
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Cosmos »

I wonder why someone would feel the need to post straight negativity in a post looking for constructive criticism, i mean the "lol" and happy faces dont really fool anyone...just seems a bit pointless and thats coming from someone that has very little more than what i just said to contribute to this post...

I actually do have a question. As i dont have a HE player to play against in my group, are the white lions a core/rare/special choice? Do the HE lords and heroes get the white lion cloak option?
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Aezeal »

frogboy wrote:NonnoSte, there is still time for you to enter your Cloak idea in the Artisans Contest here...

http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=28616
Yeah it would fit there. it needs to be a magic item though and as a magic item you COULD even get MR 1 on it so make it more usefull against all sorts of attacks. I think the multiple rules the cloak has fit a magic item much better than as a "regular" cloak like the seadragon cloak.

Personally I'd say a "regular" cloak might just have to be -1 to hit and free on all our skirmishers (wait not WD though) and maybe even GG.
Then like 2 tiers of magic items with increasing stats that would be fitting for like 25 points (I think your orinigal idea might be in this range) and one for 50 points to make lords more viable something like -2 to hit shooting, 4++ shooting and MR 2? (the MR 2 being a blanket bonus for units too might make it a bit too strong for that though). Not being able to target magic on the character if a single model seems like a nice anti magic option too... but probably even more OP.

I'd missed that threat BTW frogboy thx for the link. Seems like a fun contest - still nearly 2 weeks to think of something... I'd only wish GW actually did something with stuff like that.
Cosmos wrote:I wonder why someone would feel the need to post straight negativity in a post looking for constructive criticism, i mean the "lol" and happy faces dont really fool anyone...just seems a bit pointless and thats coming from someone that has very little more than what i just said to contribute to this post...

I actually do have a question. As i dont have a HE player to play against in my group, are the white lions a core/rare/special choice? Do the HE lords and heroes get the white lion cloak option?
Well my first post was pretty constructive I think - even told him to lower the costs of it. And I DO think MR or something else against magic would be nice since single targets can be easily killed that way. And my negativity was about our glade lord which is just not a very good combat lord so I'm not using it.
I'm pretty sure while lion cloaks are available for hero's I think my HE opponent used it - not 100% sure though: I dont'have the army book. The unit is special choice.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Cosmos »

You first post was constructive! Your second post totally burned the idea down.
Anyway i think the cloak wont be keeping the theme from the other ABs if it reaches more than one unit.
I am personally not crazy about the deepwood scouts, fluff wise. They are a great tool gamewise, but seenm a little generic. Maybe a cloak for them and characters might fix that.
I think the cloak going to a rare unit would unbalance our rare section.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Aezeal »

Nah that wasn't about the idea, I'd love the cloak or something like that in our army (I don't have a split personality which 1 minute is positive about something and negative about it the other - I'm pretty much eitehr positive about something or negative). I'd love viable combat lords even more though and that was what I was negative about. And I just pointed out the contradiction in his thing mention about the template.

You are right about the cloak only being on 1 unit in the other armies. But putting it on the scouts only is a bit weird since the WW are THE ULTIMATE scouts .. and they'd not have it. If someone should have it then WW are the first in line I'd say. I agree the scouts are generic.. but really most GW armies have a lot of generic troops.. halbardiers, spearmen, archers, cav, scouts.. those classes have a generic component in most armies. And out scouts even have special arrows (which might seem a bit generic since GG have it too.. but it's a valuable special rule).

I'd love to have the trap setting back (on either scouts or WW or both) that was in the army book 2 version previous. Then the WW had it and it was VERY fluffy (not to mention the chance of a S6 hit(?) (D3 wounds?) really kept monsters away :D).
Or we should just remove the scouts completely and make the WW special rules a new arrow type only on the WW that you have to buy, the cloak an option (or just a given maybe) AND the traps an option (like +10 per unit). The WW/scouts then would need to be special though .. if our only scout option was rare it woudl not be good.
NonnoSte
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by NonnoSte »

Cosmos,
White Lions are a special choice and yes, generic lords and heroes can take the cloak for respectively 4 and 6 pts.
It confers just +2 to AS against non magical shooting (quite meager if you ask me). I used it for.Eagle Nobles to have 1+ against small fire and preserve the golden crown for cannonballs.

Anyway Aezeal made a good point about cost reduction. Looking for SDC and LC point cost, maybe 15 pts for Captains and 20 pts for Lords is better.

Frogboy,
I thought the contest was just for magic items.
Anyway I'm too lazy (or busy, depending on points of view :D) to think about a fluff behind the item and write it down in proper English.

Aezeal,
WHat I meant is that if you don't know where to aim, it's hard to hit stealthy scouts even with a stone thrower, but forcing rerolls on artillery or scatter dice seems a bit counterintuitive.
It could be addressed wording it like it's done in the two aforementioned spells:
Warmachines aiming at models with the cloak must roll 4+ on a D6 to shoot.
But I think a plain ward save is still easier and more linear during the game.

EDIT: wow, looks like I'm really slow at typing (daughters jumping around in the house don't help for sure). 3 new posts since I started.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by NonnoSte »

Aezeal wrote: Yeah it would fit there. it needs to be a magic item though and as a magic item you COULD even get MR 1 on it so make it more usefull against all sorts of attacks. I think the multiple rules the cloak has fit a magic item much better than as a "regular" cloak like the seadragon cloak.

Personally I'd say a "regular" cloak might just have to be -1 to hit and free on all our skirmishers (wait not WD though) and maybe even GG.
Then like 2 tiers of magic items with increasing stats that would be fitting for like 25 points (I think your orinigal idea might be in this range) and one for 50 points to make lords more viable something like -2 to hit shooting, 4++ shooting and MR 2? (the MR 2 being a blanket bonus for units too might make it a bit too strong for that though). Not being able to target magic on the character if a single model seems like a nice anti magic option too... but probably even more OP.
Interesting suggestions for a magic item.
The regular cloak could give a 5++ vs all kind of shooting.
After all a -1 to hit means from 33% to 50% less hits, if you save them afterward instead, it's no different if not vs khemri or TFA.

The magic item could then add MR(2) for a total of 35 pts.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by frogboy »

E'er oh yeah it's for magic items oops :o
Its been too long since we burned a heretic, witch hunt anyone !??
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Aezeal »

5++ vs shooting and MR 2 is much tighter in the way of rules... but IMHO I'd just go for a 4++ vs shooting. I often thing anything less than 50% is... hardly worth it :D.

Isha's Cloak:
4++ vs shooting attacks
MR 2


looks nice like that.

MR 2 is 30 points though and I think 5 points for 4++ is a bit low especially if it includes warmachines (a 6+ vs warmachines alone is 5 points already and this is way stronger. I guess 40 would be min.. 45 probably more reasonable it might be worth 50 even).

But I like the thing about targetting a lot too since it IS what the cloak should do.. something about not being able to target with not BS shooting AND magic.
I guess a complete ban on targetting the wearer is a bit OP so that can't be done. And a 4++ before being able to cast a spell makes for a messy magic phase - especially if you wanted to target the bearer and set everything up for that spell wchih would probably end up making noone target the bearer.

And back to your

4++ vs shooting attacks
MR 2


Would that not be a GREAT banner?

"Banner of the Eternal Queen"
4++ vs shooting attacks
MR 2



THAT should have been the "Banner of the Eternal Queen" (which in case you didn't know is an official item in our book... WHICH IS NEVER USED I bet) it MIGHT even be worth 100 points... if not we could apply the weird unbreakable rule to it the official banner has.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by NonnoSte »

Do you know how much does the dwarven banner rune that confers 5++ vs shooting cost? I think it's less than 50 pts by a good margin.
For.100 pts I'd like an area banner. Something like "all the units within 12"... blablabla...".
It.could be interesting: 4++ vs shooting to units within 12" and MR (2/3) to the bearer.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Aezeal »

Hehe we'll I'd settle for one unit and then have the 4++ too.. would be ideal on WR.. only thing is that we usually put WR in smaller units so an expensive banner is not worth it so much.
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Baardah »

I agree that for a mundane hero/lord equipment like the sea dragon clock or the white lion cloak Nonno's suggestion was a bit to much. As a magic item I think it would be brilliant.

But I too think we should have equipment like this. But they shouldn't have to many rules. I think simple is best.
To keep in line with the OP's suggestion for a stealth cloak, I'd go with -1 to to hit both cc and shooting. Maybe even a 6++ vs war machines too. Same cost as the white lion or SDC

I also think we could have our own armor like the dragon armor or the empires full plate.

I like the old oaken armor with a small twist. Light armor with Regeneration 5+
Would makes it vulnerable to fire, but that is fluffy right.
10 points?

Other ideas for mundane items like this is
War paint: MR1 or +1T (I know T4 elves, but it's not that op is it?) 15p

Hunting hawk: an additional S3 attack with a range of 12", may take up to 3 Hawks 5pts
This could be a cool addition to a scout or way watcher champion too.

Ironwillow cloak: +1 AS, i know it's boring, but it would still only make us able to get a 2+ AS on 2 characters max. Which still wouldn't make us a tin can army. I think this could fit on wildwood Rangers as an option too.
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Drstrangelove wrote:Imagine a magic item. For 20 points you get +4M, Vanguard, extra +1 to your armour save, unlimited free reforms, and an extra S3 attack at I4.
That item would be in every list.

That item is a horse...
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Aezeal »

I think I can see the reasoning not to go for the -1 to hit in melee.. it's less logical.. when you are close those cloaks really won't hide you. AND it's PRETTY OP.
I like your Oaken armor idea (did you post a (somewhat) similar idea in the contest?) I like the fact it's just light armor.. high AS just don't fit with the codex (same like the ironwillow: just doesn''t fit the book). Regen 5+ and light armor probably is 15 points right?
More warpaints would be great, but for characters we already have a MR1 option and I don't like +1 T for warpaint.. it's not really what warpaint does.. warsaves and MR seem to fit better.

Hunting hawk: an additional S3 attack with a range of 12", may take up to 3 Hawks 5pts
This could be a cool addition to a scout or way watcher champion too.

this would be nice, or make it spites and fully armor negating :D


Basicly most magic armors that really function as armors don't really fit the book.
1. I think -1 to hit in shooting fits well,
2. -1 to hit in combat could work but not for a hiding cloak.. seems to fit more for distraction stuff (shining stuff to blind enemies, spites, insects etc)
3. wardsaves Always good and could fit anything
4. MR
5. regen. I think it really fits the "life" side of our army with the ancients etc. (now to think of something that fits the darker side too..... well that would be the cloak of twilight.. I know nice stats for it already :D)

So things like this

Cloak of Spites
20 points
-1 to hit when shooting and in melee
(each 6 when rolling to hit AGAINST the wearer of the cloak does a S3 hit on the attacker, no armor saves allowed.

Arrowbane Cloak
15 points
4++ vs shooting damage

Cloak of ?
30 points
Regen 4+
-2 to hit from shooting

Blackbriar blow darts
missile weapon, range 15 inch
poisoned attacks, S2
multiple shot 3
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by Baardah »

Well, a -1 to hit in cc is powerful,but so is the ability to go 1+ AS on every character....
My summer night wood elves
Drstrangelove wrote:Imagine a magic item. For 20 points you get +4M, Vanguard, extra +1 to your armour save, unlimited free reforms, and an extra S3 attack at I4.
That item would be in every list.

That item is a horse...
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by paralee »

My suggestions would be something like this

Cloak of enchanted leaves

+4 pts per model 6+ ward save
Can be taken to all models with light or no armor.

All weapons are throwing spears with range of 15

Asrai spear +1p
-AP
Recovery:
When hits an enemy model and this certain enemy model flees can't be recovered
-Can be recovered when enemy model is killed then roll d6 and with d1-3 it's broken and unusable if d4-6 it can be used ONCE (can be recovered AFTER enemy flees or is killed


Poison spear +2pts

-Poison
-Can't be recovered if enemy model is hit and this certain enemy model flees.
-Can be recovered when enemy model is killed then roll d6 and with d1-3 it's broken and unusable if d4-6 it can be used ONCE (can be recovered AFTER enemy flees or is killed

Dryadwood spear
-multiple hits 2

-one use only

Splits in half when thrown

So let me Know if these were bad suggestions or good ones thx.
NonnoSte
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Re: Our own cloak

Post by NonnoSte »

My point with the save is that more often than not against shooting a -1 to be hit is stronger than a 5++ save (where just going down from hittin on 4+ to 5+ is the same as saving a third of the wounds done, then it's always like a 4++).

Anyway if the Cloak of Twilight is 50 pts for a 3++ vs shooting AND magic AND it also confers KB and Multiple Wounds on the first turn of close combat, how much could cost a 4++ save vs just the shooting attacks?
I think it's worth no more than 15-20 pts, so a mundane cloak which gives a 5++ vs shooting can be priced 10 pts with no real worry (Ironcurse Icon is 5 pts for a 6++ vs warmachines for the WHOLE carrier unit).

About Warpaints, I think they should be our Talismanic Tattoos, which I honestly liked more in the previous form (MR1) or else I'd love to have them working like the Mark of Tzeentch.
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