Weapon Skill Redux

Post ideas and develop rules or stats for whatever you want in here. Asrai units as well as other races

Moderator: Council of Elders

Post Reply
User avatar
Hyarion
Elder of the Council
Posts: 4873
Joined: 19 Jun 2006, 15:08
Location: The Glade of Eternal Moonlight
Contact:

Weapon Skill Redux

Post by Hyarion »

Coyle_Ravane wrote: Personally I think WS needs overhauling more than I does, and if done well, would remove the need for things like ASF, which is a clumsy mechanic anyway.
This is a great point and I can think of a couple of ways of going about this.

The first is expanding the range of the To Hit chart from 3-5 to 2-6. I think it makes sense that if you are going to expand it in one direction (from 3-5 -> 2-5) then it makes sense to do it in both directions. Certain high WS models like most Lords, some heroes, and even some elite troops should be hitting some extremely unskilled troops on a 2 then they should be hitting back on the same probability.

The second is far more complex and involves migrating the To-Hit chart from a d6 to a d8 or even a d10 or d20. That allows you to add a lot of fine-tuning to the To-Hit chart and really introduce more subtle but strongly pronounced gradations of WS. It also allows more interesting crossover into various d20 RPG systems providing various campaign elements to be more easily integrated.

We can also introduce various modifiers and rules to more accurately reflect battlefield situations.
Single models (or monsters) engaged on two fronts can not effectively guard in two directions. The flanking unit (or unit engaged on the rear) gains a +1 to hit.
You get the idea.

So what else am I not thinking of?
The Warrior of the Silver Flame
I hold the Glaive of Law against the Earth.

If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.

Image
User avatar
hutobega
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1097
Joined: 23 May 2010, 01:33
Armies I play: Orcs and goblins, Vampire Counts, Wood Elves.
Location: Cromwell,Connecticut

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by hutobega »

The hard part is they want Warhammer to be... easy... even though they have a hard time writing rules to sound easy and can be interpreted =P but anyhow I do agree that a high weapon skill should be more beneficial in the defense department... goblins wrecking a blood thirstier because they hit on 5's is kinda lame. Or weapon skill should affect parry saves or something hmmmm
How do we prove we exist? Maybe we don't...
User avatar
Billthesurly
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1324
Joined: 20 Jan 2012, 14:31
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Orcs and Amazons
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Ministry of Profound Bloviation.

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by Billthesurly »

I'm pretty sure the KISS principle (Keep it simple, stupid!) is in play here. GW wants low level troops to have a chance of hitting and killing anything. Hence the "always wound on a 6" (picture your Snotling with a sharp stick VS Steamtank confrontation) as well as the simplified WS charts.

I agree with the philosophy. Any warrior can get lucky and a bunch of warriors vs one are pretty sure to get in some hits, Hollywood notwithstanding. I also like the fact that these rules keep people from getting ridiculous cocky with their big monsters and heroes. They're still plenty powerful but they can't go out and win a game all by themselves. I remember playing WFB in the early '90s when a lot of big characters COULD win battles all by themselves. It sucked.
So it's no longer the BRB, now it's the DERB. (Digital Edition Rule Book) I am all in for 9th Age.
Aezeal
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1502
Joined: 22 Aug 2014, 13:54

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by Aezeal »

I'm pretty sure that point balance is also a factor here. this to hit thing would REALLY mean that you need to put gazillion goblins in melee to kill elves.
Not to mention at a certain point they'd just give 200 goblins bows since bows would then have a better chance to hit the damn elves.
Also I'd just not make it similar to wounding chart. I think 2-5 might be the best option.

PS: I remember the times when a T7 treeman could not be wounded by S3 troops.. was fun.. get it in melee with the right unit and you'd not need to think about it anymore :D
User avatar
Hyarion
Elder of the Council
Posts: 4873
Joined: 19 Jun 2006, 15:08
Location: The Glade of Eternal Moonlight
Contact:

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by Hyarion »

Aezeal, do you mean point cost? or stat points? Both of which I am already planning on doing, just not gotten to them yet since I've had more important things taking up my time.

Nobody is talking about making anything related to the to-hit or to-wound chart impossible. Just that certain extreme cases should be extreme. Right now the to-hit probability curve is either 1/3, 1/2, or 2/3 without modifiers. I would argue that for a game of such diverse troop types that that is just not too granular. That is one of the main reasons why I've considered moving to something larger than a d6, it alters the probability curve without making the leaps between gradations so large.
25% (7+), 37% (6+), 50% (5+), 62% (4+), and 75% (3+) seems much more able to the the player feel a bit more differentiation between troops without making either end case feel so improbable that you get into the 200 goblin archer scenarios.

While I haven't necessarily planned on it, I'm also not above taking a critical eye to the shooting to-hit chart although I think it works well now as is. If anyone has suggestions on that front, feel free to mention them.


For example:

Skeletons hit an Elven Prince on a 5+ 33% which is far too high in my opinion. 6+ (16.6%) I think is better, and far from impossible. A 7+ on a d8 gets you to 25% which I think is a still better option.

Hopefully that makes sense.
The Warrior of the Silver Flame
I hold the Glaive of Law against the Earth.

If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.

Image
Aezeal
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1502
Joined: 22 Aug 2014, 13:54

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by Aezeal »

Noone wants to buy another 30 d8's.. well I don't at least. But I'll be honest, I've given my opinions on thing I think could be changed.. but I'd never play with such drastic changes to the GW rules. But if you like doing the work I'll not stop you and if you ask opinions I'll give em :D
NonnoSte
Bladesinger
Bladesinger
Posts: 904
Joined: 07 Oct 2013, 14:59
Armies I play: All kind of Elves.
Location: Turin, Italy.

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by NonnoSte »

I think the main point of the KISS rule sits in using the same set of dice for everything in the game.

Still, a to-hit chart working more like the to wound one would make sense.
I'd leave the 1 as always failure, while i'd go up to 7+ or more as you usually do with shooting attacks.

It make sense that goblins would prefer to shoot down elves instead of facing them hand to hand.
chickenbane
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 225
Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 01:49
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Skaven, Lizardmen
Location: Ireland

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by chickenbane »

Hyarion wrote: The first is expanding the range of the To Hit chart from 3-5 to 2-6. I think it makes sense that if you are going to expand it in one direction (from 3-5 -> 2-5) then it makes sense to do it in both directions. Certain high WS models like most Lords, some heroes, and even some elite troops should be hitting some extremely unskilled troops on a 2 then they should be hitting back on the same probability.
Essentially 3rd Ed Warhammer to hit chart then?
My blog Contains the occasional Wood Elf!

My Battles
User avatar
Hyarion
Elder of the Council
Posts: 4873
Joined: 19 Jun 2006, 15:08
Location: The Glade of Eternal Moonlight
Contact:

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by Hyarion »

I must sadly admit my complete ignorance of 3rd edition. If there is a digital copy of the BRB floating around, I'd love to get my hands on it.

The KISS principle is great, but I think it is better stated "Everything should be as simple as possible to achieve your goals." Sometimes I think KISS gets used to encourage sub-optimal designs in the name of simplicity that prevent you from achieving the goals you want. Which really is the entire purpose of these threads: Can my/our goals be achieved using just d6? I'm not sure yet. I'll also point out that Dungeons and Dragons uses many dice of various sided-ness and that hasn't seemed to hurt it's popularity though I'll grant that you that D&D players aren't rolling in such quantity as Warhammer players.

I'll agree that a roll of a 1 should remain a failure. Rolling a 7+ as a shooting attack is a 6+/4+ or ~8% which doesn't feel right. We could instead do a 5+/3+ which gets you to ~22% which is close to where I think the probability should be, but I wonder if that is not intuitive or teachable enough.

It certainly does make sense that goblins would prefer to shoot down elite troops (of any race) than engage them in hand-to-hand than someone less obviously skilled.
The Warrior of the Silver Flame
I hold the Glaive of Law against the Earth.

If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.

Image
Aezeal
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1502
Joined: 22 Aug 2014, 13:54

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by Aezeal »

You do realize that rolling a 7 + would then be easier than rolling a 6+... not sure what feels right about that.
User avatar
Hyarion
Elder of the Council
Posts: 4873
Joined: 19 Jun 2006, 15:08
Location: The Glade of Eternal Moonlight
Contact:

Re: Weapon Skill Redux

Post by Hyarion »

Yes, I am aware that a 7+ on a d8 is easier than a 6+ on a d6. If you have anything constructive to add to the conversation I'd love to hear it. How would you refactor the to-hit mechanics from warhammer to introduce additional "bands" into the to-hit chart to make certain elite troops feel more elite? At the moment, a 7+/d8 allows you to miss more often than a 5+/d6 while not making it feel too rare as to discourage people from close combat all together. Furthermore, it does so in a way that doesn't dramatically increase the number of dice rolled and does so in a way that is easily understood by a player (a simple 1/4 chance).
The Warrior of the Silver Flame
I hold the Glaive of Law against the Earth.

If you refuse to capitalize on your strengths or make the most of your opponent's weaknesses, you are begging to lose.
There is no combat without movement.

Image
Post Reply