Bow of Loren
Moderator: Council of Elders
- henrypmiller
- Trusted Bowman
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- Joined: 19 Oct 2014, 19:14
Bow of Loren
Would it be so broken if it could be combined with magic arrows? It almost seems as though they added the sentence as an afterthought.
I understand that it would be an undercosted combo, but even so.
Machine gun lord is just so fluffy and 5 s3 AP shots isn't amazing.
I understand that it would be an undercosted combo, but even so.
Machine gun lord is just so fluffy and 5 s3 AP shots isn't amazing.
- Baardah
- Former Council Member
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Re: Bow of Loren
I think it then would be a viable option. But far from a 1+ item.
My summer night wood elves
Drstrangelove wrote:Imagine a magic item. For 20 points you get +4M, Vanguard, extra +1 to your armour save, unlimited free reforms, and an extra S3 attack at I4.
That item would be in every list.
That item is a horse...
- henrypmiller
- Trusted Bowman
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Re: Bow of Loren
Agreed. And to take full advantage of it you would have to take a Glade Lord, which really isn't a common choice when looking at the "net list".
I don't think it would be OP.
I don't think it would be OP.
Re: Bow of Loren
Or just give it S4 or S5 shots... would make it a viable option on waystalkers.
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- Bladesinger
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Re: Bow of Loren
Yesterday I was comparing this item with the Reaver Bow from High Elves.
The Reaver Bow is a Long Bow (30" range) with Multiple Shot (3) at Str as user +1.
In normal condition we're watching at:
Bow of Loren on Glade Captain:
4 Str 3 shots at BS 6 (-1) and 30" range
Reaver Bow on High Elf Noble:
3 Str 5 shots at BS 6 (-1) and 30" range
Moving and long range means we're usually hitting on 4+ with both (factoring in the -1 for multiple shots).
Some maths show the following results against different targets:
Against T3 5+ (core troops/fast cavs) 0.83 wounds (BoL) vs 1.25 (RB).
Against T4 3+ (Temple Guards/Warriors of Chaos) 0.33 (BoL) vs 0.83 (RB).
Against T4 1+ (Skullcrushers/Demigryphs) 0.11 (BoL) vs 0.50 (RB).
Against T5 4+ (Chimera, suppose regen already stripped) 0.11 (BoL) vs 0.63 (RB).
Savage Beast of Horros benefits both, but the outcome is still in favour of the RB, except against T3 5+light targets:
Against T3 5+: 1.46 (BoL) vs 1.25 (RB)
Against T4 3+: 0.58 (BoL) vs 1.25 (RB)
Against T4 1+: 0.19 (BoL) vs 1.04 (RB)
Against T5 4+: 0.19 (BoL) vs 1.25 (RB)
What's really different is that Reaver Bow can be boosted via Potion of Strength, a much more reliable way than a Spell from a lore rarely taken on Lord level casters.
Sure, we could have a slight benefit moving the Bow on a Glade Lord instead of a Captain, but the point investment surely isn't justified for one more shot.
The Bow of Loren, is clearly sat aback by a margin not justified by the 5 pts difference in their costs.
I think GW nerfed the Asrai bow because of Waystalkers. Their ability to snipe characters means that the Bow of Loren can become very dangerous and they preferred to go wrong in the safer direction.
IMHO, as Aezeal suggested, the simpliest way to even the score would have been giving Str 4 to the bow of Loren.
With Str 4 the scores would be (on its own and with Savage Beast of Horros on):
T3 5+: 1.33 / 2.33
T4 3+: 0.66 / 1.16
T4 1+: 0.33 / 0.58
T5 4+: 0.56 / 0.98
Still beneath the Reaver Bow's performance (except against light troops), but at an acceptable rate, considering that investing on a Glade Lord would even the scores a bit more.
What could really benefit from this change is the Waystalker's perfomance.
Considering Str 4, a Waystalker with his two shots would have a reliable chance to cause a wound per turn on T3 and T4, putting even a dent in T5 characters without being that OP, IMO.
The Bow of Loren becomes a must have on the Stalker, but it's not a bad thing. After all the Handmaiden seems a bit wasted without the Reaver Bow too.
Would it be too strong for Waystalker boosted by Savage beast, tough?
He would be able to one-shot most of hero characters and some lords too.
Is a combo involving a single spell that dangerous in Warhammer?
The Reaver Bow is a Long Bow (30" range) with Multiple Shot (3) at Str as user +1.
In normal condition we're watching at:
Bow of Loren on Glade Captain:
4 Str 3 shots at BS 6 (-1) and 30" range
Reaver Bow on High Elf Noble:
3 Str 5 shots at BS 6 (-1) and 30" range
Moving and long range means we're usually hitting on 4+ with both (factoring in the -1 for multiple shots).
Some maths show the following results against different targets:
Against T3 5+ (core troops/fast cavs) 0.83 wounds (BoL) vs 1.25 (RB).
Against T4 3+ (Temple Guards/Warriors of Chaos) 0.33 (BoL) vs 0.83 (RB).
Against T4 1+ (Skullcrushers/Demigryphs) 0.11 (BoL) vs 0.50 (RB).
Against T5 4+ (Chimera, suppose regen already stripped) 0.11 (BoL) vs 0.63 (RB).
Savage Beast of Horros benefits both, but the outcome is still in favour of the RB, except against T3 5+light targets:
Against T3 5+: 1.46 (BoL) vs 1.25 (RB)
Against T4 3+: 0.58 (BoL) vs 1.25 (RB)
Against T4 1+: 0.19 (BoL) vs 1.04 (RB)
Against T5 4+: 0.19 (BoL) vs 1.25 (RB)
What's really different is that Reaver Bow can be boosted via Potion of Strength, a much more reliable way than a Spell from a lore rarely taken on Lord level casters.
Sure, we could have a slight benefit moving the Bow on a Glade Lord instead of a Captain, but the point investment surely isn't justified for one more shot.
The Bow of Loren, is clearly sat aback by a margin not justified by the 5 pts difference in their costs.
I think GW nerfed the Asrai bow because of Waystalkers. Their ability to snipe characters means that the Bow of Loren can become very dangerous and they preferred to go wrong in the safer direction.
IMHO, as Aezeal suggested, the simpliest way to even the score would have been giving Str 4 to the bow of Loren.
With Str 4 the scores would be (on its own and with Savage Beast of Horros on):
T3 5+: 1.33 / 2.33
T4 3+: 0.66 / 1.16
T4 1+: 0.33 / 0.58
T5 4+: 0.56 / 0.98
Still beneath the Reaver Bow's performance (except against light troops), but at an acceptable rate, considering that investing on a Glade Lord would even the scores a bit more.
What could really benefit from this change is the Waystalker's perfomance.
Considering Str 4, a Waystalker with his two shots would have a reliable chance to cause a wound per turn on T3 and T4, putting even a dent in T5 characters without being that OP, IMO.
The Bow of Loren becomes a must have on the Stalker, but it's not a bad thing. After all the Handmaiden seems a bit wasted without the Reaver Bow too.
Would it be too strong for Waystalker boosted by Savage beast, tough?
He would be able to one-shot most of hero characters and some lords too.
Is a combo involving a single spell that dangerous in Warhammer?
- sunstrider
- Trusted Bowman
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Re: Bow of Loren
I think the best way to improve and distinguish the Bow of Loren is to have it work with enchanted arrows. There's no good reason why it shouldn't, and it's not like it's a huge game changer. Our race SPECIALIZES in ranged warfare with bows. I think that should allow us to use our fancy magical arrows with extra effects with our mediocre str 3 magical bow
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- Wild Hunter
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Re: Bow of Loren
I agree the Bow is underpowered compared to Reaver (has been for three editions) and a slight boost in the form of Enchanted Arrows or such would not be unreasonable.
It still feel it is usable though. The biggest plus to my mind is that you are left with 30pts of magic item allowance, enough for a potentially very useful MR2 for example. The four shots are not awesome but they're worth having at effectively BS5.
It still feel it is usable though. The biggest plus to my mind is that you are left with 30pts of magic item allowance, enough for a potentially very useful MR2 for example. The four shots are not awesome but they're worth having at effectively BS5.
Re: Bow of Loren
I think that casting the beast on a waystalker with the bow would be generally a waste of powerdice. On a combat unit it will be a lot more effective I think.
The fact waystalkers are probably a bit underpowered WITH the bow means they are really terrible w/o the bow. The Waystalkers should have been cheaper with their rules like this.
With the enchanted arrows it would be a bit better considering you'd have either hagbane or moon/starfire arrows which would give you some chance of wounding a character. It would be adding up a lot of rules though.. MS from BoL, hagbane and then using the AP from the waywatcher rules....
If the waystalker Always had 2 shots and ignore all armor it would be a viable option I think, at least to some armies.. but it shouldn't be an auto include agianst everything so that would be a good place for them.. they would really be able to reliably kill cheap chars and if you got more you'd have a chance at something with wardsaves etc.
The fact waystalkers are probably a bit underpowered WITH the bow means they are really terrible w/o the bow. The Waystalkers should have been cheaper with their rules like this.
With the enchanted arrows it would be a bit better considering you'd have either hagbane or moon/starfire arrows which would give you some chance of wounding a character. It would be adding up a lot of rules though.. MS from BoL, hagbane and then using the AP from the waywatcher rules....
If the waystalker Always had 2 shots and ignore all armor it would be a viable option I think, at least to some armies.. but it shouldn't be an auto include agianst everything so that would be a good place for them.. they would really be able to reliably kill cheap chars and if you got more you'd have a chance at something with wardsaves etc.
- sunstrider
- Trusted Bowman
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Re: Bow of Loren
Just thinking about it, a Glade Lord/Captain with the Bow of Loren and Arcane Bodkins would make both far more viable choices, instead of the usual Glade Lord on dragon or Glade Captain BSB. I'm really starting to warm up to the idea
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- Trusted Bowman
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- Joined: 13 May 2014, 07:00
Re: Bow of Loren
I totally agree. Would have been great to have the option to use magic arrows with the BoL.
Would have been even better to get another bow that's utterly hard hitting... Like Alith Anar's bow. Now how Woody is that!?
Would have been even better to get another bow that's utterly hard hitting... Like Alith Anar's bow. Now how Woody is that!?
Re: Bow of Loren
I'd go one better! I'd say that it comes with all magic arrows as standard and lets the bearer pick one each time he fires!
It's always narcked me how the high elves get a better magic bow than us.
It's always narcked me how the high elves get a better magic bow than us.
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- Newcomer
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Re: Bow of Loren
With the risk of accidently performing thread necromancy and asking a stupid question.
could a waystalker take the reaver bow in an eternity king list?
I would personally love to snipe with three str 5 no armor saves shots
could a waystalker take the reaver bow in an eternity king list?
I would personally love to snipe with three str 5 no armor saves shots
Re: Bow of Loren
Sadly I think it's unclear if you can use even your own army book items. I'm pretty sure that isn't explicitly condoned in the end times rules.
war without fire is as worthless as sausages without mustard