TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post ideas and develop rules or stats for whatever you want in here. Asrai units as well as other races

Moderator: Council of Elders

Post Reply
User avatar
The Virgin Forest
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1868
Joined: 14 Jun 2008, 12:49
Armies I play: WoC, WE and VC and working on 40K DH
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by The Virgin Forest »

After about two years of playing warhammer and observing the powershift and ups and downs in balance, my group has finally come to the conclusion that GW aren't very good at balancing this game - big surprise :D

But since we are always up for making house rules, we've set forth to do our best to revise the game. We're still pretty early in the process, and is of course concentrating about the armies we play ourselves and the core rules. The goal is to balance the armies externally as well as internally e.g. so our empire player shouldn't feel sad about fielding spears and halberdiers instead of swordsmen etc.

Here is our current draft.
WARHAMSTER HOUSE RULES - 'cause GW can't be bothered

Core Rules:
Spears can be set to receive charging cavalry, and gains ASF + Armor Piercing when doing so
Halberds gains Armor Piercing
Fear is changed to lower the break test by 2 instead of demanding insane courage - yet it still affects stubborn units
Psychology does not transfer from rider to mount
You can always strike a rank'n'file trooper, when in base contact with the unit - to prevent congas
All BSBs can carry shields and equipment as normal
Magic weapons are per default classed as 'hand weapons' - to encourage infantry heroes

Force organisation
1 special unit per 1 core
1 rare unit per 2 core
Core cavalry counts half for this purpose, while fliers do not count

Empire

Greatswords gain access to 50 pt. banners
Halberdiers gain heavy armor
Swordsmen reduced to I3
Swordsmen, spearmen and halberdiers cost 5 pt.
Arch Leactor and Warrior Priests get access to Full Plate
War Alter priced at 150 pt.
Master Engineer BS5, 50 pts.
Huntsmen, US5+ and is limited to 1/2 state trooper regiments
Sword of Justice onl works in CC
Banner of the Daemonslayer, Fearcausing, when charging

High Elves

Speed of Asuryan reserved for Swordmasters and fighty heroes/lords
Phoenix Guard and White Lions reduced to 12pt.
Lothern Sea Guard 11pt.
Archers 10 pt.
Spearmen 8 pt.
Shadow Warriors 15 pt. with additional hand weapon
Ellyrian Reavers, Silver Helms and Tiranoc Chariots become core
RBTs and Eagles become 2:1 choices
Star Dragons are put to sleep

Wood Elves

Glade Guard bows for everyone
Wardancers ASF dance does not cost an attack
Spellsingers gain access to Life/Beasts
Eternal Guards are stubborn on their own
Treeman gains 'treewhack' 1 S10 attack causind d6 wound

Vampire Counts
Master powers no longer allows you to increase over start size - new point cost
Skellies come with spears per default
Corpse Carts becomes vulnerable to S7+ hits like chariots

Warriors of Chaos
Marks doesn't limit your choice of lores
Juggernaut gets frenzy
Forsaken gain skirmish
Champions killed in challenges give a roll on the EotG table
Shaggoth gains stubborn

Skaven

Grey Seer becomes Ld6
Only clan rats and storm vermen are core per. the new force organisation rules
Life is cheap! goes for every rat
Lead from the back back
Scavenge Pile only 1 of each
Bell and Furnace cannot be in the same unit, and instead of unbreabable, the unit becomes stubborn
Assassin is not a hero slot, but an upgrade for Storm vermin clan rats, night runners, gutter runner or slaves
Doomwheel becomes vulnerable to S7+ like chariots
Hell Pit A-Bomb can only charge within LOS and is reduced to S5
Please feel free to comment now :)
– it is said that the apples of Athel Loren gain their deep red hue from the blood of its enemies soaking the ground.
User avatar
ArchMagosAlchemys
Witch-Hunter General
Posts: 13755
Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 22:56
Armies I play: VC, Empire, Asrai, DoW, DE, SM, Lustwing, many IG, Adeptus Mechanicus
Location: Lost in the Laurelorn GMT -5hrs

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

This is a very worthy idea. I'm moving it to the Weald of Evolution where I think it belongs.

I think the 'easiest' way to do this is to select a pair of armys that you think are at about the right level, make whatever minor changes you think are necessary, especially for internal balancing, then balance other armies, one at a time, against the growing pool of 'balanced' armies.

So the first question has to do with what level do you want to balance at.

O&G?
Empire?
WE?
DE?
DoC?
Airmeith: Healer of the Twisted Glade

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Julius 'Groucho' Marx

Burn the Heretic!
Treachery Aforth: Witches purged = 0

War of Blood: 3 Daemonettes, last wound Keeper of Secrets
User avatar
The Virgin Forest
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1868
Joined: 14 Jun 2008, 12:49
Armies I play: WoC, WE and VC and working on 40K DH
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by The Virgin Forest »

Weald of Evolution seems right. So thank you :)

We're starting out with our main armies Empire/WE/HE, as we find them a pretty even match already, but suffering from a few issues.

Empire suffers from lack of balance in its state troops - mainly because of the weapon rules. And having some 'useless' yet cool choices.
WE. Suffers a bit from 'overbalancing' e.g. glade guard bows.
And HE suffers from having a rather boring blanket rule that in many ways are wasted on many troop choices.

Then there is the general reliance on specials and rare choices over core choices that we want to balance out. So a horde of core choices will be as viable as a specialist army.
– it is said that the apples of Athel Loren gain their deep red hue from the blood of its enemies soaking the ground.
User avatar
ArchMagosAlchemys
Witch-Hunter General
Posts: 13755
Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 22:56
Armies I play: VC, Empire, Asrai, DoW, DE, SM, Lustwing, many IG, Adeptus Mechanicus
Location: Lost in the Laurelorn GMT -5hrs

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

I agree with Empire and HE as standard. Because of the weird WE play style, I would not include them in the balancing mix, possibly using Dwarfs or Bretonnians instead.

I would then start 'improving' the weaker armies before weakinging the stronger ones.

I like the idea of re-balancing the Empire internally because I think this is the 'standard' by which other armies should be judged.
Airmeith: Healer of the Twisted Glade

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Julius 'Groucho' Marx

Burn the Heretic!
Treachery Aforth: Witches purged = 0

War of Blood: 3 Daemonettes, last wound Keeper of Secrets
User avatar
unicorn
Walking Rulebook
Posts: 4267
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 13:12
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Czech republic (GMT+1 for WFO purposes)

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by unicorn »

Nice ideas overall, though I am not sure about the Force organization rules.
If I will take 2xGR, 2xGG and 3xDr, I can field 3 Treemans? If Empire fields 6 mainstay core units (nothing that hard), they can field 3 STanks? Did I get it correctly? It will be... Weired. Especially with the new Beastmans, who can easily field core units for 30 pts which DOES count towards the minimum.
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
User avatar
The Virgin Forest
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1868
Joined: 14 Jun 2008, 12:49
Armies I play: WoC, WE and VC and working on 40K DH
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by The Virgin Forest »

Obviously thats not the point. So thanks for pointing out a glaring error :)

The alternate force organisation is a bit sketchy ATM, just a loose idea not really thought through. The idea is to enhance the 'core' idea, so they really become the mainstay of the army - inspired by the old mainstay skaven rule of course. Any idea on how to improve it - before the high elves start fielding 8 RBTs and a bunch of archers? :p
– it is said that the apples of Athel Loren gain their deep red hue from the blood of its enemies soaking the ground.
User avatar
unicorn
Walking Rulebook
Posts: 4267
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 13:12
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Czech republic (GMT+1 for WFO purposes)

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by unicorn »

The Virgin Forest wrote:Any idea on how to improve it - before the high elves start fielding 8 RBTs and a bunch of archers? :p
I can see several points which MAY improve this (some will need to be combined together):
1) 1 core for 1 special OR 2 cores for 1 rare. One core can be used for special or rare, not for both at the some time
2) up to this, keep current limits (200+ = 3+ core, 4- special, 2- rare). That will mean that you can not over boost your special/rare, but you will need some core to be able to field them.
3) other option is a little mor complicated (what is why I do not like it), but will also work... Somehow. Up to point 2; add not the 1-1 or 2-1 limit, but point limit. You need to fill the some price cost of core for each special/rare choice.
4) up to all this, it will be very nice to see some limits to the herohammer tendencies. Have no idea which.

Besides that, one of my friend have some time before the "ballancing" idea of something like:
from your army you can use (inside the current hero/core/special/rare limits):
30 % or less on heroes
30 % or more on core
40 % or less on special
30 % or less on rare
(not balanced, just some idea I think may be worth of considering)
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
User avatar
czar05
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 114
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 07:09
Armies I play: Woodies, O&G

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by czar05 »

I definitely agree with your ideas for woodies :nod:
User avatar
The Virgin Forest
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1868
Joined: 14 Jun 2008, 12:49
Armies I play: WoC, WE and VC and working on 40K DH
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by The Virgin Forest »

I find the point limits a bit too restraining Unicorn (for the more 'heroic' armies at least), but the combination of current and 'mainstay' rule seems sensible - a bit complicated, but sensible :nod:
Also instead of 3. I'd rather go with a ranking, where certain units open up for specials/rares and others do not/to a lesser degree. Like how certain units do not count for minimal core with the base system. Its just easier this way :)

Herohammering is a tough nut to crack. So we'll keep our focus on the armies themselves at first - units are much simpler to compare than potential magic item combinations. Hopefully by balancing the units themselves, herohammering will be less appealing ;)

@czar05. I doubt any wood elf player would object against these changes, as they are all upgrades. But should really be seen compared to the other armies and changes - as we really aren't up to turning woodies into DoC MKII <.<
– it is said that the apples of Athel Loren gain their deep red hue from the blood of its enemies soaking the ground.
User avatar
Mist Walker
Campaign Team
Posts: 3681
Joined: 28 Apr 2007, 01:38
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Slaanesh WoC
Location: Oxford or up North
Contact:

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by Mist Walker »

Another possibility for the mainstaying could be the same in points. So you need twice as many core points as rare points etc. Means that you can't flab out your core with minimal units and also that you don't limit the things like great eagles that are throwaway rare slots too much
Image
Blood runs, Anger rises, Death wakes, War calls
Fikol
Shadow Sentinel
Shadow Sentinel
Posts: 2101
Joined: 22 Mar 2009, 23:20
Armies I play: WE
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by Fikol »

I think either at 4th or at 5th edition there were point limits similiar to :
1. characters up to 50% of the army points (that includes magic items with no point limits like 100pts)
2. minimum 25% in regiments
3. up to 25% on monsters

It was absolutely wrong, one powered character was winning the whole game, but that's only the idea. Doing proper restrains per category, for Magicans for example etc, might be a solution.
Life is but a dream...
User avatar
ArchMagosAlchemys
Witch-Hunter General
Posts: 13755
Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 22:56
Armies I play: VC, Empire, Asrai, DoW, DE, SM, Lustwing, many IG, Adeptus Mechanicus
Location: Lost in the Laurelorn GMT -5hrs

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

I like 'Mainstay'.

x Mainstay gives y Specials
p Specials gives q Rares

Unused rares can be traded for more specials.

x, y, p, and q could be different for various armies.
Airmeith: Healer of the Twisted Glade

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Julius 'Groucho' Marx

Burn the Heretic!
Treachery Aforth: Witches purged = 0

War of Blood: 3 Daemonettes, last wound Keeper of Secrets
Scion of Fangor
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 206
Joined: 22 May 2009, 19:41
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: MId Wales

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by Scion of Fangor »

Would the people here be interested in developing a game that draws inspiration from the Games Workshop rules, that would be freely developed and distributed. That way players would be able to balance the rules themselves and directly tell the designers (and they would listen :roll: ). I always think that with such a creative fan base for this game, but the awesome amounts of broken stuff and exponential prices, that it would be better to develop our own game. Designed by players for the Players. What do people think?

On the balancing rules, I think they are great and look forward to reading the development!
Join the Furnace, a community dedicated to creating a free living rulebook for Fantasy, Sci-Fi and historical tabletop wargaming. It will be downloadable e-book from. All comers welcome!

Our Forum: http://thefurnace.webs.com/
Our Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Furnace-G ... 7413941829
User avatar
ArchMagosAlchemys
Witch-Hunter General
Posts: 13755
Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 22:56
Armies I play: VC, Empire, Asrai, DoW, DE, SM, Lustwing, many IG, Adeptus Mechanicus
Location: Lost in the Laurelorn GMT -5hrs

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

Developing a complete set of rules is a huge job and takes many years. I have done it three times, plus a couple of major 'upgrade' modules. I don't think that this is a practical forum for such a project. I would rather concentrate on getting GW to 'fix' some things.
Airmeith: Healer of the Twisted Glade

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Julius 'Groucho' Marx

Burn the Heretic!
Treachery Aforth: Witches purged = 0

War of Blood: 3 Daemonettes, last wound Keeper of Secrets
User avatar
The Virgin Forest
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1868
Joined: 14 Jun 2008, 12:49
Armies I play: WoC, WE and VC and working on 40K DH
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by The Virgin Forest »

Yup. I'd rather be lazy, and just patch up on GWs rules.

Besides developing house rules is one thing. The next issue would be to persuade others to use them – and I really couldn't be bothered.

Looking forward to the weekend where we're going to test the current changes :)
– it is said that the apples of Athel Loren gain their deep red hue from the blood of its enemies soaking the ground.
User avatar
Mist Walker
Campaign Team
Posts: 3681
Joined: 28 Apr 2007, 01:38
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Slaanesh WoC
Location: Oxford or up North
Contact:

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by Mist Walker »

And that's not to mention the question of, do we avoid GW lore or use it at the risk of copyright issues? If we avoid it then there's a huge amount of effort involved.
Image
Blood runs, Anger rises, Death wakes, War calls
Scion of Fangor
Trusted Bowman
Trusted Bowman
Posts: 206
Joined: 22 May 2009, 19:41
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: MId Wales

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by Scion of Fangor »

There is also a huge amount of talent!!
Join the Furnace, a community dedicated to creating a free living rulebook for Fantasy, Sci-Fi and historical tabletop wargaming. It will be downloadable e-book from. All comers welcome!

Our Forum: http://thefurnace.webs.com/
Our Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Furnace-G ... 7413941829
User avatar
The Virgin Forest
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1868
Joined: 14 Jun 2008, 12:49
Armies I play: WoC, WE and VC and working on 40K DH
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by The Virgin Forest »

Guys.. You're straying a bit off the subject.

Feel free to discuss any changes here, use them in your own groups, and ultimately arrange tournaments based on this. Then it might just happen all by itself. But keep organizing a new game to another thread please :)
– it is said that the apples of Athel Loren gain their deep red hue from the blood of its enemies soaking the ground.
User avatar
The Virgin Forest
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1868
Joined: 14 Jun 2008, 12:49
Armies I play: WoC, WE and VC and working on 40K DH
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: TVF tries to balance fantasy.

Post by The Virgin Forest »

So I finally had the chance to test the rules out - apart from the mainstay rules that always seem to come up as abusable one way or the other :p

We had a trio of battles WE/Skaven/High Elves, the experience poit by point was something like this.

General:

The balancing of sword&board/spears/halberds seems to work like a charm - halberds will probably be more of a problem, when we get to deal with WoC and Dark Elves, but for now they work great :)
Fear in break tests only came up once. It is still a potent weapon, so its a keeper.
The 'always strike a rank'n'file' made things a lot simpler and faster.
And making magic weapons count as hand weapons kept people from having odd formations with cavalry characters in infantry unit.

High Elves:

Three big regiments of spearmen and Phoenix Guards made the HE army actually look like an army, as the spearmen with (partial) loss of ASF and point reduction was actually a viable choice. The 'new and improved' spear and halberd rules kept them offensive, but they now had to emphasize maneuvers.
Shadow warriors also benefitted a lot from their new rules, and were actually reasonably effective, they actually serve a purpose now, and can pose a threat beyond march blocking.
The other changes weren't in play, as the army was defensive magic line; 15 PD of Fire and Death.

Skaven:

The only thing in effect was the lead from the back and the doomwheel. The doomwheel is still a massive threat, but reducing it to charging its front arc and made it a lot more manageable - it survived both its games, but it seemed 'fair and balanced'.

Woodies:

The glade guard bows for everyone and ASF dance was tested. One player had massive issues with these and started slinging around words like 'broken' and 'überpowerful'. I myself had my reservations, as my army was really taking advantage of it - scouts, waywatchers, glade riders, warhawks and wardancers. But in the end the S4 didn't have that much of an impact, and two ASF attacks at S3 really ain't that great :p
The Wild Riders was denied their steeds fury attack, which just seemed fair in our overall reduction of cavalry efficiency.

So all in all it was quite satisfactory. Especially the HE army really was made a lot more interesting - and efficient - by gaining access to cheaper troops, and it just made the troops better at their role in army - but darn, a unit of 25 Phoenix Guards with armour piercing halberds can be a scary sight.
– it is said that the apples of Athel Loren gain their deep red hue from the blood of its enemies soaking the ground.
Post Reply