valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

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valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by valmir »

I've started a new thread, since my old one had basically become something very much other than the original question about fast cav lists. That thread is here, if anyone's interested. But I wanted to basically have a thread documenting and discussing the process of coming to terms with this list. Sometime soonish I'll start a parallel painting log, but I'm just so lazy with the camera... :D

My first game of the year was a Storm of Magic game. I actually read the SoM book before playing, this time, and took the Living Deadwood Staff, Calaingor's Staff, and two Lvl 1 Spellsingers with Tree Singing (among other things).

Basically I won on the first turn. We played to the end of the second turn, but the combination of plonking blood forests everywhere and then spamming Tree Singing which, at Dominance, caused 4D6 S7 hits from the Blood Forest, was just ridiculous. Not a fun game in the least. I would say that this, as a combo, is overpowered, although not un-counterable (and the opponents made a decent fist of it), but there was simply no way the opposing armies (we were playing 2v2) could recover from the sheer amount of damage I'd dished out. It was insane.

What I disliked the most was the fact that my entire army seemed completely incidental. 300-odd points of my army was the entire game, and it would have been tactically smarter to actually sit back on my board edge and just wait for that 300 points to decimate my opponents' entire army. This total focus on a tiny fraction of my army was really super annoying, in part because I had brought Eternal Guard (in, I must say, not an optimal build), and was really looking forward to trying to synergise combat infantry with combat fast cav. All of which was for nought, because my actual army was irrelevant.

I also disliked the dilemma of, having taken something overpowered, which is no fun for either you or your opponents, do you go play "easy"? My decision was, ultimately, that it's unfair to soften your game, because it cheapens the very real achievements of my opponents in the face of this. It's not a combo I would ever take again but, having taken it, I believe that I'm obligated to play it to the best of my ability.

I think I'm done with Storm of Magic. Looking forward to having my arse handed to me by High Elves in a normal game this weekend, though...
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by hutobega »

My friends and I read the Storm of magic book after i bought it and looked at each other and just said no... I really didn't like anything in that book. It was either a joke or overpowered...But oh well Looking forward to seeing your army! I have a lot fo glade riders that I don' tuse just because they cost a lot but maybe you can change my mind :wink:
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

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Glade Riders really do - as is the popular wisdom - suck. They are really expensive, and don't do much damage. They'd be a lot more feasible (still overpriced) if they had the Glade Guard longbows. But they don't. And 24 points is a lot of points for a single S3 shot.

We'll see what happens with the new army book, but I'd like to see GR with S4 at short range, light armour, and a 2-4 point reduction in cost.

Curiously, against non-ASF chaff (like warmachines, jezzails, etc), they're actually better on the charge than they are at shooting at the moment. But you really don't want to be hit back.

I'm sticking with it, though, because I find fast cavalry incredibly fun to use, and I genuinely believe that it's possible to learn to use GR effectively. And that I'll be a much better player as a result.

One of the big things has been learning to constantly remind myself to play more avoidance/redirect. I keep wanting to really get stuck in, and I'm less patient than I should be with manoeuvring. My game plan is always to attempt to redirect anything genuinely dangerous, and take out chaff and other more manageable units with Wild Riders. Moving towards higher point values, there will be an EG anvil to assist with this.

I'm still very much trying to work out the degree of character support necessary.
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by hutobega »

Eagle rider heros can do some damage and or wild riders with stag heros are not bad sounding either. Not death starish but a solid unit or two. Warhawk riders need love bad to but wouldnt it be fun a completely mounted army heh. Riding through the woods like it was nothing. I think GR should be HELL of a lot cheaper. Glade guard bow, light armor...How may points are dark riders when kitted out? still cheaper and have more shots lol 4+ armor save...lame
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by valmir »

Yeah, it definitely has that problem of "other armies can do this much better, cheaper, and with ASF".

On the other hand, scissors-paper-rock match-ups aside, I figure that if I can learn to win with this, I can win with anything... :nod:
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by godswearhats »

Playing Wood Elves just makes you a better general. You become more cautious, and less willing to risk your troops. The Deployment and Movement phases become super important. If you then switch to playing another army (or when Wood Elves get a new book), this caution and focus will help you dominate.
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

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valmir wrote: Curiously, against non-ASF chaff (like warmachines, jezzails, etc), they're actually better on the charge than they are at shooting at the moment. But you really don't want to be hit back.

I'm sticking with it, though, because I find fast cavalry incredibly fun to use, and I genuinely believe that it's possible to learn to use GR effectively. And that I'll be a much better player as a result.

One of the big things has been learning to constantly remind myself to play more avoidance/redirect. I keep wanting to really get stuck in, and I'm less patient than I should be with manoeuvring. My game plan is always to attempt to redirect anything genuinely dangerous, and take out chaff and other more manageable units with Wild Riders. Moving towards higher point values, there will be an EG anvil to assist with this.

I'm still very much trying to work out the degree of character support necessary.

I totally agree, I want an all cav list to work so much, but being in the middle of my first tournament and seeing something like 25%+ people taking cheese WoC it isn't viable. I lost (in a trial run ) a 10 block or wild riders to a single WoC chariot ! Granted it might be the best core in the game, but my block wild riders should be an almost auto win not a crap-shoot.
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by valmir »

I didn't update this thread at the time, because I was having weird problems posting - apparently I was on a spam list or something! Some bot somewhere obviously thinks fast cav is truly rubbish! :D

Last week I played three games. The first two against High Elves (600 points, then 1000 points).

The first game was very tight, and I think very well fought on my part. At this point level, my army has been a mounted noble with HoDA, two units of GR with musicians, a unit of WR with Warbanner, and an eagle. Yes, I lost. Yes, I was tabled. But I took the vast majority of his army with me, and I console myself with the knowledge that a lot of the damage he did to me was from this weird item that is part of the campaign we're a part of.

The second game, against the same player, was a bit more embarrassing. And a lot of it had to do with simply not knowing the High Elf book well enough (or at all). This is not to diminish his playing, which was absolutely fastidious (he's very good at the movement phase), but it felt a bit like playing chess where you don't know what any of your opponent's pieces do. The clearest example of this was with the Phoenix Guard. My army had no answer for the Phoenix Guard. Not in itself a problem, but I only realised this after I was committed. Whereas if I'd known the army book better I could very easily have avoided them.

I played a third game against Daemons at 750. I went first. I was tabled during my second turn. This was a combination of (1) having no idea what daemons actually do (for instance, I waltzed up in front of a bunch of horrors, knowing that they didn't have "shooting", but not knowing that they had this fire stuff); (2) it being incredibly late, and me playing pretty recklessly because I wanted a quick game; and (3) daemons - I'm not sure I had an answer to anything in the list he brought (it's a really fast tarpit army that dominates close combat and magic phases).

CONCLUSIONS:
I've made comments in this direction before, but I'm now very much convinced that a fast-cav army is absolutely impossible without Glade Guard support. This is not just a question of causing wounds, it's about potential threat - nobody in the world is scared of 5 S3 shots from Glade Riders, meaning that GR have absolutely 0 ability to influence the opponent's movement phase. GG, on the other hand, provide an element that it is potentially important for the opponent to manage in turns 1 and 2, allowing cavalry to get into position for what I actually want them to do. If packing two units of Glade Guard can keep my cav from getting shot/magicked up before they become effective, then they've done their job.

This series of games clarified for me that the fast-cav army is very definitely a combat army, but more than that, an army that is predicated upon winning combat in either one or two turns. This, in some ways, clarifies army selection a bit. Glade Riders, for instance, are, and can only really be, redirectors, or can charge warmachine crews. That's about it. On the other hand, Wild Riders are really good for this, so it becomes about providing them the necessary infrastructure in order to actually make it to that vital flank charge. Steadfast is still a problem.

Tonight is, once again, games night. But I'm playing my first 40k game in 17 years, so I'll probably be a bit too busy being confused (I'm still at the "wha? you charge in the combat phase?!" stage...) to get a fantasy game in. But I'm taking 750 points, this time with archers, so I'll write about how that goes if I actually manage to play.
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by godswearhats »

Nice write ups. One thing I do is ask my opponent about the equipment and special rules for every unit he/she places down, and offer the same information for each of mine. It's not only good sportsmanship, it makes for much more enjoyable games.
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by valmir »

Played a 750 point game against VC last night. An absolutely crushing win for the Woodies (and, I think, my first win that I've actually felt like I really deserved).

My list:
noble on steed with HoDA

10 GG with flaming banner

2x 5 GR with musicians

5 WR with warbanner

Eagle


His army was something like

Necromancer with the make-units-bigger upgrade ("Herrscher des Todes"... Master of Death?)

2x 15-ish Skeletons with banners
25-ish Zombie horde

5 Hexwraiths

Varghulf


I was lucky and unlucky. For the first time ever, my dice rolled above average, but that also meant that I didn't pass a single Leadership test the entire game, meaning that half my army (Glade Guard, one units of Glade Riders, and the Eagle) fled off the board by turn 3 (and, in my defense, it wasn't like I was always rolling 5s and 6s - more that my average was maybe 4, instead of 3, which makes a huge difference). On the other hand, it meant that my Wild Riders managed to take out his entire Zombie unit (including the Necromancer). He was also unlucky with magic. He kept rolling quite low for winds of magic, which meant that, while he got a couple of spells off, he didn't really manage to raise as much as he could have (and, I think, made a tactical error in not prioritising IoN).

HoDA is gold against Hexwraiths, and the Wild Riders took out the Varghulf - which were the things I was most scared of. If half my army hadn't run away, I would have sat back at that point and just taken pot-shots at one of his isolated skeleton units. As it was, it was basically undecided, so I decided to risk trying to assassinate his general for the crumble. It worked out, but it could easily have backfired.

He made a few tactical errors. The big one being that - scared of the WR trying to kill his general - he diverted all of his forces to try and embed me in a massive combat that would just destroy me (which it would have). Which meant that he turned a skeleton unit's back on the GR unit that had my general in it. They're not so strong, but they certainly pack enough of a punch when charged into the back of a small-ish unit of skeletons (no supporting attacks, no parry).

I also made some errors, which ended up not coming into play because I got lucky with the Wild Riders. If that had gone badly, though, the placement of terrain was such that I could offer them no support whatsoever. I should have waited a turn before charging, which would have meant there would have been flank support from the second turn of combat at the latest.

In general, though, really happy with my game, and it was the first game where I was really starting to feel a bit more secure about where everything was, what it would/could do, etc.

In terms of the match-up against VC in general, I'm a bit of two minds. A lot of my combat stuff is basically hitting and wounding on 3s, which is HUGE. On the other hand, I played another game against VC (different player) a few months ago, where he was playing much more magic heavy, and I just got tarpitted by ever-increasing units of stuff. I think this might be one of those armies where there are builds that are fine to play against, and builds that are almost indestructible (at least for cav-heavy wood elves).

I was excited to finally use a unit of Glade Guard, and was actually a little bit dismayed by the fact that they did almost nothing all game (they took out a few skeletons, which were then raised back...). But I suspect also that they're not as necessary against this particular vampire build as against certain other armies.
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by hutobega »

Ten GG are nice but not going to do much. most people bring 30 minimum even in smaller games. But you brought the GR instead which is great against VC they have no shooting to be scared of really! HODA is amazing vs ethereal units big time! In a small game liek this it would be hard for a VC player to bring a really strong vampire but usually wood elves can't match the might of a lord vampire who is kitted out for close combat. once he's in it's usually game over unless you have net-lings on a defensive lord. Good job this game sounds like you had some nice tactics. too bad stuff ran off the board...how did he manage that?
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by valmir »

hutobega wrote:Ten GG are nice but not going to do much. most people bring 30 minimum even in smaller games.
Yeah, my plan was basically that the GG would act as a support for the rest of my army, whittling down units so that they were a little tenderised. If the points value were any higher, there would have been two units (i.e., 20+ GG in 1k points).

hutobega wrote:too bad stuff ran off the board...how did he manage that?
The GG fled because of this bound spell that causes flaming attacks and panic (took two wounds, failed panic, kept on running). Everything else had voluntarily fled from a charge, and then just never rallied...
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Re: valmir's army log - thoughts and reports

Post by hutobega »

Bad luck sorry to hear.
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