Can I rotate a wood with singing?

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Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by unicorn »

It is comon that you can move woods on the table with treesinging. But is it possible to rotate them too?

And if yes, is it possible to combine movement + rotation and then, how will be the movement distance calculated?

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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by Gropah »

I'm also curios about this, I've always presumed one can NOT rotate - but I'd be more than happy to be persuaded it's possible... :nod:
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

On page 79 of the ArmyBook, there is absolutely no suggestion that a wood can be rotated using treesinging. It moves a distance in a straight line, and nothing else.
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by Gropah »

You're such a partypooper AMA... <.< :wink:
That said, it's how I've interpreted the rule and played it anyway, so I'm good.

So, how should one align the woods during deployment with treesinging in mind?
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by Tane mahuta »

ArchMagosAlchemys wrote:On page 79 of the ArmyBook, there is absolutely no suggestion that a wood can be rotated using treesinging. It moves a distance in a straight line, and nothing else.
Taking a contrary position: there is absolutely no suggestion that a wood can't be rotated. the precise words, which I'm sure everyone has memorised are: "...the chosen wood move D3+1 inches in a direction nominated by the caster before rolling". Nothing in there about straight lines. Is circular motion not a "direction" anymore? I know it's been a heck of a long time since I did hiskool physics but I'm pretty sure this particular concept hasn't changed.

Moving the wood, if you wanted to pivot or rotate, would be a like moving a unit, except you don't get to use the 1/4 movement for 90deg or 180deg rotation because that represents individual models turning in place, and trees don't need to turn in place because they have 360deg movement under this spell. Clearly the maximum distance any particular tree can move is whatever you have managed to roll up, so by pivoting or rotating there will be some trees which don't get to move the distance you rolled, but this is no different to when you pivot a unit, the corner which is the focus of the pivot does not move as many inches as the other corners. If you roll a 3+1 then you could pivot around a certain point (the most distant tree is where you take the measurement) 2" then move the whole wood another 2". So if you have a long skinny wood and its ling axis is perpendicular to the DZs then with multiple treesings you can eventually get the long axis parallell with the DZs.

I mean really! A wizard can make trees get up and walk, but he can't make them reorient themselves? Come on! Get...

...real?
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by KidA »

Even if we considered a 'direction' not to be a straight line (which I strongly disagree with), it would still not allow the wood to be rotated, it would remain in the same position, but would get to another location in an arc path, not a straight one.

Having to invent rules for rotating woods is IMO a solid proof you are very much not supposed to rotate terrain features.
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by Noxmenno »

I strongly agree with KidA. You just move the wood the full distance you rolled up in one direction. No turning, wheeling. rotating or changing formation along the way. The spell doesn't mention any of this as being possible. It only mentions the wood moves a certain distance in a chosen direction.
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by Hyarion »

Gropah wrote:So, how should one align the woods during deployment with treesinging in mind?
An excellent question!

That depends greatly on where you place it, and the existing gaps between other terrain peices because the moving forest stops as soon as it hits another piece of terrain or another unit.

If you placed the forest to block LOS from a warmachine(s) then you want to make sure that the free forest's longest face is facing that warmachine to have the greatest effect. If you are using it to surf units around, then you want to orient it so you can fit it in between other terrain pieces.
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by Tane mahuta »

KidA wrote:Having to invent rules for rotating woods is IMO a solid proof you are very much not supposed to rotate terrain features.
Who is inventing rules? The rules for how to rotate / pivot then move already exist in WHFB. You just need to apply them logically to moving a forest.

You don't agree rotational or curved movement is a direction? What word would you use in the following sentence? "The wheel is rotating in a counter-clockwise ________." "Direction" is the word I'd choose most often, "motion" would be second.

Direction means the line of motion of an object, there is no implied straightness required in that the line of motion in using this word.

The rule description does not disallow rotation, and neither would any fluffery about how treesinging magic should work. Therefore I do not believe anyone can categorically state that rotation ist verboten. I think it should be left up to personal choice, and gaining the agreement from your opponent that it is an acceptable application of the rule as written (or dicing off). If you don't like it, don't use it.

I haven't yet seen a decent argument for why it should not be allowed, in either this thread or others which have discussed it. In that respect it is only a clear elucidation of the intent of the designers which can resolve the matter once and for all.

If this isn't an FAQ topic then it should be.
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by WoodHawkDown »

I actually agree with Tane on this issue :)

I have even "rotated" a forest in a game before. The situation came up where I wanted to rotate a forest and both my opponent and I looked in the book and could not come up with a logical reason why it wouldn't be allowed. The RAW just state that the trees can be moved in a direction nominated by the caster. Now, I do agree that you couldn't combine a rotation with a straight line movement as I think "circular", or "clockwise", etc is the direction nominated by the caster in that case and that cannot be changed during mid move. However, I really don't see the issue with rotating the forest rather than moving it forward/backward, etc. Granted, it doesn't come up all that much and all said and done, it turned out to be no more game altering than a normal move, but I do like it as an option.

In any event, the real decision comes down to you and your opponent. Use it, don't, roll for it, do something else...whatever makes for an enjoyable game. It certainly isn't something I would ruin a game over :)

Just my two cents.
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by Tane mahuta »

WoodHawkDown wrote: Now, I do agree that you couldn't combine a rotation with a straight line movement
Yep, fair call. The rule does say "a direction" which indicates no combos of straight line, plus pivot / rotate.
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by KidA »

Tane mahuta wrote: Who is inventing rules? The rules for how to rotate / pivot then move already exist in WHFB.
There are rules for moving units in WHFB. And I never thought that I'd be saying this, but last time I checked, a forest isn't a unit.
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by Gropah »

A unit of.. trees? We could pretend our free forest is just dryads and treemen standing still.
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Re: Can I rotate a wood with singing?

Post by Tane mahuta »

KidA wrote:
Tane mahuta wrote: Who is inventing rules? The rules for how to rotate / pivot then move already exist in WHFB.
There are rules for moving units in WHFB. And I never thought that I'd be saying this, but last time I checked, a forest isn't a unit.
As per my agreement with WHD's post I rescind any claim on being able to pivot / rotate and move under a single treesinging spell. But the principles of unit movement apply to moving a forest feature, with the restriction that you get to move the forest in one direction only, whether it be pivot, rotate, or straight line in any direction. So, for the purposes of the operation of the treesinging spell, a forest is like a slow, clumsy, difficult to manouver unit, and on the fluff side a bit stubborn too.

We are talking about trees being told to get up and march by the army general who has command over their movements through the wizard. Is that not what a general does with his/her troops? Yes a forest is not a unit, but under the influence of the treesinging spell its movement is directed by the general as if it was a unit, therefore it is not unreasonable to apply the basic principles of unit movement to the forest.

This is not inventing rules, it is appling basic principles to a situation which are logically consistent with what a tree moving spell should be able to achieve, and they are principles which already exist within WHFB, and fit within the spell description as it stands.

Like I said, if you don't like it don't use it, but please don't tell me it is clear cut with no possibility for any interpretation other than the "straight line is the only direction permitted".

If they'd put "...in a straight line in a direction chosen..." we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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