Impact hits into a challenge

Moderator: Council of Elders

Locked
User avatar
Slobber
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 329
Joined: 18 Sep 2013, 06:27
Location: Washington Dc

Impact hits into a challenge

Post by Slobber »

So yet another question regarding challenges, if a character in a challenge is charged by a chariot or ogre will he take impact hits?
war without fire is as worthless as sausages without mustard
User avatar
Shandrakor
Shadow Sentinel
Shadow Sentinel
Posts: 2397
Joined: 12 Jul 2010, 11:09
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by Shandrakor »

Slobber wrote:So yet another question regarding challenges, if a character in a challenge is charged by a chariot or ogre will he take impact hits?
First of all it depends if the character in a challenge is in a unit or not. If yes, then the Impact Hits will hit their unit. If they're not in a unit, then no, no Impact Hits will occur because the characters in a challenge cannot be attacked by outsiders (BRB pg 102, Fighting a Challenge). Generally speaking, only combat resolution and possibly spells from outside can have any effect on a challenge other than what happened on the inside.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
User avatar
Slobber
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 329
Joined: 18 Sep 2013, 06:27
Location: Washington Dc

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by Slobber »

Thanks, I feel better equipped to argue my case next time. Most importantly the last paragraph of the impact hits rule calls impact hits close combat attacks.
war without fire is as worthless as sausages without mustard
kakwah
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 260
Joined: 03 Jul 2013, 09:17
Armies I play: Woodelves, Orcs & Goblins
Location: Wollongong - Australia

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by kakwah »

Impact hits are distributed as shooting and still will hit the unit (or model if its a single model) in the challenge
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by godswearhats »

kakwah wrote:Impact hits are distributed as shooting and still will hit the unit (or model if its a single model) in the challenge
I think that's not actually true. If two characters are already in a challenge and then one of them is charged by a model with Impact Hits, then no wounds are dealt from the impact. The two relevant parts of the rules are under "Fighting a challenge" ...

"These two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other – they cannot be attacked by any other model"

... and as already mentioned, under Impact Hits special rule ...

"Impact Hits are close combat attacks (albeit of an unusual type)"

So, the charge is still legal, but the chariot/ogre/impactor cannot attack at all while the challenge is ongoing. To visualize / rationalize what's going on, I could imagine the charging unit getting very close to the fray such that they are impeding movement (and thus preventing the character from fleeing) but not actually crashing into him because the 1:1 duel is too intense and they'd risk hitting their own guy.

Hope this helps,
~gwh
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
kakwah
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 260
Joined: 03 Jul 2013, 09:17
Armies I play: Woodelves, Orcs & Goblins
Location: Wollongong - Australia

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by kakwah »

I`ll have to disagree with you on that. Being in a challenge does not make the challenger immune to damage from other sources it simply means that "these two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other - they cannot be ATTACKED by any other model for that round of close combat" (p.102, Fighting in a Challenge, BRB)

So the Challenger cannot be attacked (understanding attack as targeting close combat attacks against). I see no wording that indicates spells could not damage the target (IE Fiery Convocation), Shooting could not harm him (scattered war machine) or impact hits could not harm him.

Further under impact hits the BRB states "Impact hits are resolved at the very beginning of combat, before challenges are made. They hit a unit in base contact.......they are distributed exactly as if they were shooting attacks" (p.71, Resolving Impact Hits, BRB) Obviously even if you contacted a character on a corner of a unit the hits would go onto the unit and the chariot would not be able to attack the character in close combat.

The only situation that this would become an issue was if you charged a unit with less than 5 rank and file, as your opponent would then have to allocate the hits as per shooting rules, but as above I see no reason they would not be able to allocate hits onto a character in a challenge.

Regards,

Kak
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by godswearhats »

kakwah wrote:I`ll have to disagree with you on that. Being in a challenge does not make the challenger immune to damage from other sources it simply means that "these two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other - they cannot be ATTACKED by any other model for that round of close combat" (p.102, Fighting in a Challenge, BRB)

So the Challenger cannot be attacked (understanding attack as targeting close combat attacks against). I see no wording that indicates spells could not damage the target (IE Fiery Convocation), Shooting could not harm him (scattered war machine)
Agreed up until this point.
kakwah wrote: or impact hits could not harm him.

Further under impact hits the BRB states "Impact hits are resolved at the very beginning of combat, before challenges are made. They hit a unit in base contact.......they are distributed exactly as if they were shooting attacks" (p.71, Resolving Impact Hits, BRB) Obviously even if you contacted a character on a corner of a unit the hits would go onto the unit and the chariot would not be able to attack the character in close combat.

The only situation that this would become an issue was if you charged a unit with less than 5 rank and file, as your opponent would then have to allocate the hits as per shooting rules, but as above I see no reason they would not be able to allocate hits onto a character in a challenge.
I think the reason I see it is that challenge hasn't ended. Assuming it was a single character and not a unit (which is what my previous post assumed), it doesn't strike me as right that you should be able to do close combat damage with this one special rule while they are locked in a challenge but you can't do any damage at all in close combat with any other special rule. Impact hits say they are close combat attacks, just special ones. I completely agree that if no challenge has been declared it's not an issue. But in an on-going challenge, I think it is.

If you could do this it creates stupid situations where you could hold up a 50mm base character in a challenge for a turn or two and then slam a unit of chariots into him to kill him.
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
kakwah
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 260
Joined: 03 Jul 2013, 09:17
Armies I play: Woodelves, Orcs & Goblins
Location: Wollongong - Australia

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by kakwah »

Ok say there is a unit of 2 characters, one of which you are in a challenge with. You charge in a chariot, doing impact hits that must be allocated. Can he put them on the character in a challenge? What words do you feel stop him from doing so?

What I am saying is that impact hits dobt hit the guy in the challenge, they hit the unit and are allocated onto him by the player.
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by godswearhats »

Hmmm, yes I see your point. If you allocate Impact Hits as if they are shooting then it's like the character in the challenge has been hit by a shooting attack on his unit - in this case he's a unit of one, and so all the hits get distributed to him.

That actually creates some interesting tactical possibilities for those armies that have Impact Hits (i.e. EVERYONE ELSE!) :-)
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
kakwah
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 260
Joined: 03 Jul 2013, 09:17
Armies I play: Woodelves, Orcs & Goblins
Location: Wollongong - Australia

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by kakwah »

Like tying up a daemon prince with a scar vet and ramming an ancient Steg into him...
User avatar
godswearhats
Elder of the Council
Posts: 1950
Joined: 19 Oct 2012, 18:20
Armies I play: Wood Elves
Location: Wexford, IE
Contact:

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by godswearhats »

Hahahah, that's exactly what I was thinking :-)
Rank and Flank: A Warhammer: The Old World Podcast and Discord
User avatar
Blackcat
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 374
Joined: 19 Oct 2010, 04:33
Armies I play: Wood Elves, Empire, Imperial Guard, Eldar
Location: Australia

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by Blackcat »

There are benefits though. Even if you cannot strike the enemy character at least you can get combat resolution to try and break him.
mabelode
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 409
Joined: 25 Jun 2009, 07:07
Location: Dodging Great Whites off Perth's beaches

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by mabelode »

Interesting stuff this.
from kakwah;
Ok say there is a unit of 2 characters, one of which you are in a challenge with. You charge in a chariot, doing impact hits that must be allocated. Can he put them on the character in a challenge? What words do you feel stop him from doing so?

What I am saying is that impact hits dobt hit the guy in the challenge, they hit the unit and are allocated onto him by the player.
Just to put my 2c in, "they cannot be attacked by any other model for that round of combat..............if both competitors survive a challenge and the combat continues, then they will continue to fight in the next round of combat. BRB pp102,103.
Combined with "Impact Hits are close combat attacks" BRB p.71

If I put the two together then....If Impact Hits are made in the initial round before the challenge then they are distributed as stated. If the combat goes into a second round then the challenge has already been issued and the character cannot be attacked by any other model for that round. A second charge would be allocated to the unit but not the character as the character is in a challenge already declared and cannot be attacked by anyone else.

Clear as mud :paranoid:
kakwah
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 260
Joined: 03 Jul 2013, 09:17
Armies I play: Woodelves, Orcs & Goblins
Location: Wollongong - Australia

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by kakwah »

You are not attacking the model. You are attacking the unit with effectively a shooting attack, who the player then allocates onto the single model in the unit.
User avatar
Slobber
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 329
Joined: 18 Sep 2013, 06:27
Location: Washington Dc

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by Slobber »

This came about with a TMA in an on going challenge with a lord level ogre. The TO ruled against me and let the ogre player take his impact hit, his rationale was that the challenge starts over every close combat phase. I don't agree with his ruling, but it ended up having little impact (get it?) on the game. Rereading the rules, impact hits happen before challenges are issued, however under challenges it's clear that no challenges are issued in subsequent rounds. It's also stated that impact hits are close combat attacks. So it seems to me that, aside from the first round, or in between challenges, impact hits can't be distributed to a model in an ongoing challenge.
war without fire is as worthless as sausages without mustard
User avatar
Slobber
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 329
Joined: 18 Sep 2013, 06:27
Location: Washington Dc

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by Slobber »

kakwah wrote:You are not attacking the model. You are attacking the unit with effectively a shooting attack, who the player then allocates onto the single model in the unit.
Yeah, but it's not a shooting attack, it's defined as a close combat attack. You can't thunderstomp into a challenge, why should how the hits are distributed allow you to target an otherwise untargetable model?
Last edited by Slobber on 11 Feb 2014, 16:33, edited 1 time in total.
war without fire is as worthless as sausages without mustard
User avatar
hutobega
Wild Hunter
Wild Hunter
Posts: 1097
Joined: 23 May 2010, 01:33
Armies I play: Orcs and goblins, Vampire Counts, Wood Elves.
Location: Cromwell,Connecticut

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by hutobega »

They way I see if it a character in unit or not...who is in a challenge...may only be hit, attacked, targeted BY the other character within that challenge.


The only thing that may affect him would be Buffs or debuff that have been cast upon nit that he is within.
How do we prove we exist? Maybe we don't...
User avatar
Sunshine coconut
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 287
Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 06:02
Armies I play: O&G, Ogres, WE's. Crons for 40k :)
Location: Queensland Australia (Although my blood is pure Kiwi, through and through

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by Sunshine coconut »

If you look at the fluff then it makes sense that impact hits don't affect challenges either!
Because all the other models make room for the challenger and the challengee... kinda like a mad sick moshpit of 2 die hard metal fans... No one else wants to get in the way...
Monsters shot down by arrows: Cockatrice, Stonehorn, Thunder Tusk, Manticore, Chimera, Blood Thirster, Galrauch, Abomination, Brood Horror, Jabbaslythe, Hydra, Kharibdyss, Stegagon, Necrosphinx, Warsphinx, Terror Gheist, Varghulf, Giant, Frost Phoenix aaannnnnnd Treeman :(
User avatar
Revelen
Horsemaster
Horsemaster
Posts: 259
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 07:44
Armies I play: Wood Elves, High Elves
Location: Brunswick, Maine, USA
Contact:

Re: Impact hits into a challenge

Post by Revelen »

I can't really think of any way you could construe the rules to allow impact hits into a challenge, in any edition I've played. Seems pretty consistent that Impact hits are close-combat attacks, and close-combat attacks cannot be made against characters in a challenge. I'm sure as heck no rules-tactics buff, but....

It just makes sense, too. The whole premise of a challenge is that the combatants are repsected/feared and given a wide bearth, sort of a sacred rite which none dare disturb. As the rulebook says, in some cases the rules should be interpreted or created to make sense in a given situation, and being unwilling to punch a guy out of respect for the duel, but willing to trample him just doesn't make sense, to me...
Sunshine coconut wrote:...kinda like a mad sick moshpit of 2 die hard metal fans... No one else wants to get in the way...
That's awesome, and makes me realize that it's been almost FOUR MONTHS since I've been to a show. MUST GO.
Locked