Impact hits into a challenge
Moderator: Council of Elders
Impact hits into a challenge
So yet another question regarding challenges, if a character in a challenge is charged by a chariot or ogre will he take impact hits?
war without fire is as worthless as sausages without mustard
- Shandrakor
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
First of all it depends if the character in a challenge is in a unit or not. If yes, then the Impact Hits will hit their unit. If they're not in a unit, then no, no Impact Hits will occur because the characters in a challenge cannot be attacked by outsiders (BRB pg 102, Fighting a Challenge). Generally speaking, only combat resolution and possibly spells from outside can have any effect on a challenge other than what happened on the inside.Slobber wrote:So yet another question regarding challenges, if a character in a challenge is charged by a chariot or ogre will he take impact hits?
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
Re: Impact hits into a challenge
Thanks, I feel better equipped to argue my case next time. Most importantly the last paragraph of the impact hits rule calls impact hits close combat attacks.
war without fire is as worthless as sausages without mustard
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
Impact hits are distributed as shooting and still will hit the unit (or model if its a single model) in the challenge
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
I think that's not actually true. If two characters are already in a challenge and then one of them is charged by a model with Impact Hits, then no wounds are dealt from the impact. The two relevant parts of the rules are under "Fighting a challenge" ...kakwah wrote:Impact hits are distributed as shooting and still will hit the unit (or model if its a single model) in the challenge
"These two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other – they cannot be attacked by any other model"
... and as already mentioned, under Impact Hits special rule ...
"Impact Hits are close combat attacks (albeit of an unusual type)"
So, the charge is still legal, but the chariot/ogre/impactor cannot attack at all while the challenge is ongoing. To visualize / rationalize what's going on, I could imagine the charging unit getting very close to the fray such that they are impeding movement (and thus preventing the character from fleeing) but not actually crashing into him because the 1:1 duel is too intense and they'd risk hitting their own guy.
Hope this helps,
~gwh
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
I`ll have to disagree with you on that. Being in a challenge does not make the challenger immune to damage from other sources it simply means that "these two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other - they cannot be ATTACKED by any other model for that round of close combat" (p.102, Fighting in a Challenge, BRB)
So the Challenger cannot be attacked (understanding attack as targeting close combat attacks against). I see no wording that indicates spells could not damage the target (IE Fiery Convocation), Shooting could not harm him (scattered war machine) or impact hits could not harm him.
Further under impact hits the BRB states "Impact hits are resolved at the very beginning of combat, before challenges are made. They hit a unit in base contact.......they are distributed exactly as if they were shooting attacks" (p.71, Resolving Impact Hits, BRB) Obviously even if you contacted a character on a corner of a unit the hits would go onto the unit and the chariot would not be able to attack the character in close combat.
The only situation that this would become an issue was if you charged a unit with less than 5 rank and file, as your opponent would then have to allocate the hits as per shooting rules, but as above I see no reason they would not be able to allocate hits onto a character in a challenge.
Regards,
Kak
So the Challenger cannot be attacked (understanding attack as targeting close combat attacks against). I see no wording that indicates spells could not damage the target (IE Fiery Convocation), Shooting could not harm him (scattered war machine) or impact hits could not harm him.
Further under impact hits the BRB states "Impact hits are resolved at the very beginning of combat, before challenges are made. They hit a unit in base contact.......they are distributed exactly as if they were shooting attacks" (p.71, Resolving Impact Hits, BRB) Obviously even if you contacted a character on a corner of a unit the hits would go onto the unit and the chariot would not be able to attack the character in close combat.
The only situation that this would become an issue was if you charged a unit with less than 5 rank and file, as your opponent would then have to allocate the hits as per shooting rules, but as above I see no reason they would not be able to allocate hits onto a character in a challenge.
Regards,
Kak
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
Agreed up until this point.kakwah wrote:I`ll have to disagree with you on that. Being in a challenge does not make the challenger immune to damage from other sources it simply means that "these two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other - they cannot be ATTACKED by any other model for that round of close combat" (p.102, Fighting in a Challenge, BRB)
So the Challenger cannot be attacked (understanding attack as targeting close combat attacks against). I see no wording that indicates spells could not damage the target (IE Fiery Convocation), Shooting could not harm him (scattered war machine)
I think the reason I see it is that challenge hasn't ended. Assuming it was a single character and not a unit (which is what my previous post assumed), it doesn't strike me as right that you should be able to do close combat damage with this one special rule while they are locked in a challenge but you can't do any damage at all in close combat with any other special rule. Impact hits say they are close combat attacks, just special ones. I completely agree that if no challenge has been declared it's not an issue. But in an on-going challenge, I think it is.kakwah wrote: or impact hits could not harm him.
Further under impact hits the BRB states "Impact hits are resolved at the very beginning of combat, before challenges are made. They hit a unit in base contact.......they are distributed exactly as if they were shooting attacks" (p.71, Resolving Impact Hits, BRB) Obviously even if you contacted a character on a corner of a unit the hits would go onto the unit and the chariot would not be able to attack the character in close combat.
The only situation that this would become an issue was if you charged a unit with less than 5 rank and file, as your opponent would then have to allocate the hits as per shooting rules, but as above I see no reason they would not be able to allocate hits onto a character in a challenge.
If you could do this it creates stupid situations where you could hold up a 50mm base character in a challenge for a turn or two and then slam a unit of chariots into him to kill him.
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
Ok say there is a unit of 2 characters, one of which you are in a challenge with. You charge in a chariot, doing impact hits that must be allocated. Can he put them on the character in a challenge? What words do you feel stop him from doing so?
What I am saying is that impact hits dobt hit the guy in the challenge, they hit the unit and are allocated onto him by the player.
What I am saying is that impact hits dobt hit the guy in the challenge, they hit the unit and are allocated onto him by the player.
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
Hmmm, yes I see your point. If you allocate Impact Hits as if they are shooting then it's like the character in the challenge has been hit by a shooting attack on his unit - in this case he's a unit of one, and so all the hits get distributed to him.
That actually creates some interesting tactical possibilities for those armies that have Impact Hits (i.e. EVERYONE ELSE!) :-)
That actually creates some interesting tactical possibilities for those armies that have Impact Hits (i.e. EVERYONE ELSE!) :-)
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
Like tying up a daemon prince with a scar vet and ramming an ancient Steg into him...
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
Hahahah, that's exactly what I was thinking :-)
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
There are benefits though. Even if you cannot strike the enemy character at least you can get combat resolution to try and break him.
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
Interesting stuff this.
Combined with "Impact Hits are close combat attacks" BRB p.71
If I put the two together then....If Impact Hits are made in the initial round before the challenge then they are distributed as stated. If the combat goes into a second round then the challenge has already been issued and the character cannot be attacked by any other model for that round. A second charge would be allocated to the unit but not the character as the character is in a challenge already declared and cannot be attacked by anyone else.
Clear as mud
Just to put my 2c in, "they cannot be attacked by any other model for that round of combat..............if both competitors survive a challenge and the combat continues, then they will continue to fight in the next round of combat. BRB pp102,103.from kakwah;
Ok say there is a unit of 2 characters, one of which you are in a challenge with. You charge in a chariot, doing impact hits that must be allocated. Can he put them on the character in a challenge? What words do you feel stop him from doing so?
What I am saying is that impact hits dobt hit the guy in the challenge, they hit the unit and are allocated onto him by the player.
Combined with "Impact Hits are close combat attacks" BRB p.71
If I put the two together then....If Impact Hits are made in the initial round before the challenge then they are distributed as stated. If the combat goes into a second round then the challenge has already been issued and the character cannot be attacked by any other model for that round. A second charge would be allocated to the unit but not the character as the character is in a challenge already declared and cannot be attacked by anyone else.
Clear as mud
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
You are not attacking the model. You are attacking the unit with effectively a shooting attack, who the player then allocates onto the single model in the unit.
Re: Impact hits into a challenge
This came about with a TMA in an on going challenge with a lord level ogre. The TO ruled against me and let the ogre player take his impact hit, his rationale was that the challenge starts over every close combat phase. I don't agree with his ruling, but it ended up having little impact (get it?) on the game. Rereading the rules, impact hits happen before challenges are issued, however under challenges it's clear that no challenges are issued in subsequent rounds. It's also stated that impact hits are close combat attacks. So it seems to me that, aside from the first round, or in between challenges, impact hits can't be distributed to a model in an ongoing challenge.
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
Yeah, but it's not a shooting attack, it's defined as a close combat attack. You can't thunderstomp into a challenge, why should how the hits are distributed allow you to target an otherwise untargetable model?kakwah wrote:You are not attacking the model. You are attacking the unit with effectively a shooting attack, who the player then allocates onto the single model in the unit.
Last edited by Slobber on 11 Feb 2014, 16:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
They way I see if it a character in unit or not...who is in a challenge...may only be hit, attacked, targeted BY the other character within that challenge.
The only thing that may affect him would be Buffs or debuff that have been cast upon nit that he is within.
The only thing that may affect him would be Buffs or debuff that have been cast upon nit that he is within.
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
If you look at the fluff then it makes sense that impact hits don't affect challenges either!
Because all the other models make room for the challenger and the challengee... kinda like a mad sick moshpit of 2 die hard metal fans... No one else wants to get in the way...
Because all the other models make room for the challenger and the challengee... kinda like a mad sick moshpit of 2 die hard metal fans... No one else wants to get in the way...
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Re: Impact hits into a challenge
I can't really think of any way you could construe the rules to allow impact hits into a challenge, in any edition I've played. Seems pretty consistent that Impact hits are close-combat attacks, and close-combat attacks cannot be made against characters in a challenge. I'm sure as heck no rules-tactics buff, but....
It just makes sense, too. The whole premise of a challenge is that the combatants are repsected/feared and given a wide bearth, sort of a sacred rite which none dare disturb. As the rulebook says, in some cases the rules should be interpreted or created to make sense in a given situation, and being unwilling to punch a guy out of respect for the duel, but willing to trample him just doesn't make sense, to me...
It just makes sense, too. The whole premise of a challenge is that the combatants are repsected/feared and given a wide bearth, sort of a sacred rite which none dare disturb. As the rulebook says, in some cases the rules should be interpreted or created to make sense in a given situation, and being unwilling to punch a guy out of respect for the duel, but willing to trample him just doesn't make sense, to me...
That's awesome, and makes me realize that it's been almost FOUR MONTHS since I've been to a show. MUST GO.Sunshine coconut wrote:...kinda like a mad sick moshpit of 2 die hard metal fans... No one else wants to get in the way...