ASF

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Blackcat
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ASF

Post by Blackcat »

Hi guys,

Recently watching a game of fantasy and this happened: A unit of dark elf spearmen with a character who had a great weapon were charged by a frostheart pheonix. SO the pheonix gives always strikes last to the unit does the character with great weapon strike last or strike at initiative?

He already has always strikes last from the great weapon but his own always strikes first cancels that out so is striking at initiative. Does the pheonix then gives him another always strikes last or do you only get one special rule and it does not stack?
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Re: ASF

Post by frogboy »

I can't imagine why it would stack, if you had an Dark Elf with an always strike first blade (sword of swift slaying) it wouldn't be double quick would it ? Like if you charge a unit of skeletons with dryads neither of them take a fear test. I don't know why but I'm sure special rules don't stack.

IMO the Dark Elf in your scenario would strike in Initiative order. But I would be interested to hear if anyone disagrees and why.

:D

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Re: ASF

Post by SquidBoy »

I would say that he strikes last.
upon entering the battlefield his great weapon is canceling his ASF, thus he is fighting with his initiative. Then the phoenix comes around forcing him to ASL.

I would argue that these special rules stack and cancel out each outer if equal;
fear vs fear = cancel out each other and noone take panic test.
ASF vs ASF = cancel out each other and both sides fight normal with initiative.
character with ASF equipted with sword of swift slaying = double ASF = ASF against enemies with only a single ASF.
character with ASF equipted with great weapon = ASF - ASL = fight with his initiative.
character with ASF equipted with great weapon faceing a phoenix = ASF -ASL - ASL = ASL.

just my two cents... :)
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Re: ASF

Post by kakwah »

SquidBoy wrote:I would say that he strikes last.
upon entering the battlefield his great weapon is canceling his ASF, thus he is fighting with his initiative. Then the phoenix comes around forcing him to ASL.

I would argue that these special rules stack and cancel out each outer if equal;
fear vs fear = cancel out each other and noone take panic test.
ASF vs ASF = cancel out each other and both sides fight normal with initiative.
character with ASF equipted with sword of swift slaying = double ASF = ASF against enemies with only a single ASF.
character with ASF equipted with great weapon = ASF - ASL = fight with his initiative.
character with ASF equipted with great weapon faceing a phoenix = ASF -ASL - ASL = ASL.

just my two cents... :)
This in incorrect unfortunately.

While it is true that ASL and ASF "cancel each other out" the model still has both special rules. ASL+ASL is still ASL and ASF + ASF is still just ASF.

I`ll go over the corrections below

ASF vs ASF = Both parties strike simultaneously at the ASF initiative step
character with ASF equipted with sword of swift slaying = double ASF = Still just has regular ASF
character with ASF equipted with great weapon = ASF - ASL = fight with his initiative. (this is correct)
character with ASF equipted with great weapon faceing a phoenix = ASF -ASL - ASL = ASL. This character has both the ASF and ASL special rules, and therefore would strike in initiative order.

Hope this helps
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Re: ASF

Post by Gwill_of_the_Woods »

I'd say because his ASF is already negated leading to him to strike at Intiative order, the addition of another ASL would mean that he strikes last.

If you had a weapon that gave you ASF, you already had ASF as a rule, and you were fighting someone with ASF, then you would strike simultaneously! I don't think that would stack. Also, once an ASF has been negated you wouldn't be able to still strike first due to stacking it.
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Re: ASF

Post by danny1995 »

He will strike in initiative order. As per the BRB rules do not stack unless specified.
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Re: ASF

Post by Gwill_of_the_Woods »

OK that makes sense :D
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Re: ASF

Post by hutobega »

I think people would role off because both sides would keep arguing and interpreting =P
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Re: ASF

Post by Billthesurly »

hutobega wrote:I think people would role off because both sides would keep arguing and interpreting =P
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Re: ASF

Post by Beithir Seun »

danny1995 wrote:As per the BRB rules do not stack unless specified.
Just to make an important point on this, the rulebook itself says that rules do stack unless noted - the later FAQ makes it clear that this only applies to different special rules stacking, not multiples of the same rule (which don't stack unless stated outright).

In this case, there is no such note for ASF/ASL - multiples of the same rule will therefore have no effect. As kakwah says, ASF + ASL + ASL is just the same as plain ol' ASF + ASL = Initiative Order.

Provided you've got the FAQ to hand, there should be no arguments :smirk:
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Re: ASF

Post by SquidBoy »

kakwah wrote:This in incorrect unfortunately.
I stand corrected
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Re: ASF

Post by godswearhats »

kakwah + Beithir Seun = correct.

By end of May we will all be ASF experts ;-)
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Re: ASF

Post by Blackcat »

ok so to be clear they dont stack and a character with a great weapon and ASF will still strike at initiative even if a frostheart pheonix charged him
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Re: ASF

Post by FriedTaterExplosion »

Blackcat wrote:ok so to be clear they dont stack and a character with a great weapon and ASF will still strike at initiative even if a frostheart pheonix charged him
Exactly.

As a side-note, I've been playing all my games lately under Crossroads Comp (part of which grants ASF to all elves in the army.) In my last game against high elves, a frostheart charged my glade guard, who because of ASF still were able to attack before the pheonix. GG did a wound on the pheonix, baby!

I think we'll all really like ASF when we get it.
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Re: ASF

Post by Phil Rossiter »

As someone who played High Elves under the old book, I can say that this makes a huge difference. Without re-rolls and auto-striking first WE badly need the strength boosts from Lore of Beasts if they want to kill things in combat. I can only dream now of the killing power my unit of 14 Swordmasters used to have. But if Saereth get +1S say, it would be game on.
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Re: ASF

Post by hutobega »

Friedtater!!!!! ASF I had a chariot ram my ten man unit of glae guard and i thought I was a goner...well he did 1 impact hit and i dealt 5 wounds back and he saved none lmao! next turn those 9 glade guard shot 7 gors!
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Re: ASF

Post by Blackcat »

FriedTaterExplosion wrote: Exactly.

As a side-note, I've been playing all my games lately under Crossroads Comp (part of which grants ASF to all elves in the army.) In my last game against high elves, a frostheart charged my glade guard, who because of ASF still were able to attack before the pheonix. GG did a wound on the pheonix, baby!

I think we'll all really like ASF when we get it.
Yea its sorely needed. I have been playing against high elves frequently and my elf units cannot handle his units in combat. For example I charged 8 wild riders into 10 archers and with stand and shoot and always strike first he killed all of them before I even got to strike. Its the same problem with dark elves. The only reason I have been winning is because of treekin, eternal guard with rhymers harp and lots of shooting.
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Re: ASF

Post by Phil Rossiter »

The other thing of course is that ASF would negate the re-rolls other elves are currently getting vs WE, a huge boon defensively. Dryads are I6 but Wild Riders and Eternal Guard aren't.

That does sound extremely unlucky with the WR's though. On average S&S should only kill one and he should get one more (two if he's very lucky) before the Riders kill about four and force a break test.
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Re: ASF

Post by Mollesvinet »

ASF doesn't give any defense against rerolls, an enemy with ASF and equal/higher initiative still gets rerolls. That being said, I have been playing with ETC rules for the last many games and ASF is really nice! It's hardly gamechanging, definately not overpowered, but its a really nice boon.
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Re: ASF

Post by Shandrakor »

Mollesvinet wrote:ASF doesn't give any defense against rerolls, an enemy with ASF and equal/higher initiative still gets rerolls. That being said, I have been playing with ETC rules for the last many games and ASF is really nice! It's hardly gamechanging, definately not overpowered, but its a really nice boon.
Always Strikes First does not give re-rolls against other enemies with ASF regardless of Initiative. If both parties have ASF neither gets re-rolls. BRB page 66.
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Re: ASF

Post by Mollesvinet »

I stand corrected! My bad, i even looked up the rule before posting but somehow managed to miss the last sentence.
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Re: ASF

Post by popisdead »

The significant changes will be if Wardancers stay Init 6, Dryads have access to ASF and stay init 6 and our characters with great weapons. Giving up high init on an elf character hurts.
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Re: ASF

Post by Phil Rossiter »

For HE's, losing Speed of Asuryan really hurt the GW elites, White Lions and Swordmasters as well as characters. Suddenly, not only have they lost the re-rolls but they strike at Initiative, which is not faster than some very nasty combat opponents, so these do not die before killing elves. Of course they get Martial Prowess now, which lets them fight in a third rank.

EG don't use Great Weapons of course and already strike in a third rank most of the time. But they badly need a strength buff to make full use of ASF. Where this leaves WE GW characters I'm not sure. I feel it'll probably be worth taking a long hard look at the S buffing magic swords.
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Re: ASF

Post by popisdead »

HE didn't get "massively hurt" they got brought in line. They still strike before most Monsterous Cav. Or most units in general.

I would say the Gyrobomber hurts HE elites more than not having re-rolls.
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Re: ASF

Post by Phil Rossiter »

By the end of it's life the last HE book was one of the weaker books in the game. Yes it had re-rolling GW's but the new book, with Book of Hoeth, World Dragon, Martial Prowess and decent Core is clearly stronger. Trying to play the old book without re-rolling GW elites would have been a real battle. I know. I tried it.

Under the new book, with PG, World Dragon and Shield of Saphery it's a rare elite unit that's that vulnerable to shooting. What they've lost in raw killing power, they've gained in defence and this is one reason they've turned from a good match-up for WE's to a bad one. Most HE lists will have multiple RBT to keep flyers honest.
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