Flaming attacks

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Pusherrman
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Flaming attacks

Post by Pusherrman »

If a unit with flaming attacks does three wounds to my treekins will it:
a) Kill two treekins.
b) Kill one treekin and one takes two wounds.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by hutobega »

It'll kill two treekin 3 wounds doubled is 6. wounds carry over in units if you miss all your saves. That's how I see it though you could fight it that well this one treekin took 4 wounds because it got hit twice. Roll off =P but like a cannon it does D6 wounds to one treekin not spreads out the wounds... hmmm
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WizzyWarlock
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by WizzyWarlock »

Looking at it, I think it kills 1 Treekin and does 2 wounds to the other. To explain:

Flammable: If a model with the Flammable rule suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a Flaming Attack, each unsaved wound is doubled.
Multiple Wounds against Multi-Wound Models: If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile).


So the first wound is inflicted on the Treekin and is doubled to 2 wounds. Second wound is inflicted on the Treekin and is doubled to 2 wounds. However, a Treekin only has 3 wounds and the number of wounds are caused on each model individually, so the third wound kills the model and the additional is ignored. Third wound is inflicted on the Treekin and is doubled to 2 wounds.

Hence: 1 dead Treekin and 1 Treekin taking 2 wounds.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by hutobega »

Yes good to know thanks for bringing this up! i would have been too nice to my opponent.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by hutobega »

So if A unit lets say has 10 attack... would you say that at most 5 treekin could be killed since the extra wound will not carry over? need to roll all the attacks separately? hehe
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by godswearhats »

Here's how it works.
If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit.
So if someone shoots your Treekin, you have to figure out how many wounds are done altogether and then remove whole models. So 3 wounds becomes 6 wounds, which is two models removed.

The only exception to this is when there are characters involved - if you've got a different troop type character in there (e.g. Wild Rider Noble) you get to choose how to allocate hits, but you must allocate one hit per model before allocating a second. The nice thing is if they get hits you can allocate one on the Wild Rider (because he'll have the Dragonbane Gem, right?), which keeps your Treekin alive longer.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Lord Sloth »

After going through the rule book again, I agree with WizzyWarlock interpretation.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Phil Rossiter »

I'm with GWH.

The way the rules are written, the unit is like a 'pool' of wounds and the removal of models is subordinate to that. The wounds an individual attack can inflict are capped at the wounds of the profile, so a cannonball rolling 6 wounds would only put 3 on the unit because that's all an individual Treekin model has on it's profile. In the example given though, a Flaming hit that inflicts a single wound doubled to two will always inflict two wounds on the unit because that's less than the 3 just cited. The fact that you have a Treekin model left on one wound after the first damage doesn't matter because it's the unit that's suffering the wounds, not the individual model.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Gwill_of_the_Woods »

Isn't there an addition to the flaming special rule inside a building. Isn't that a re-roll to wound or something?
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Lord Sloth »

you are correct sire... when assaulting a building with flaming attacks you get to re-roll to wound... this works with shooting attacks and spells as well.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Pusherrman »

Here's how it works.
If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit.
So if someone shoots your Treekin, you have to figure out how many wounds are done altogether and then remove whole models. So 3 wounds becomes 6 wounds, which is two models removed.

The only exception to this is when there are characters involved - if you've got a different troop type character in there (e.g. Wild Rider Noble) you get to choose how to allocate hits, but you must allocate one hit per model before allocating a second. The nice thing is if they get hits you can allocate one on the Wild Rider (because he'll have the Dragonbane Gem, right?), which keeps your Treekin alive longer.
Would that also mean that if a model with Multiple Wounds (2) hits a lands 3 wounds to a unit with regular models (no characters) with only one wound each, then you remove 6 models? Or am I reading your answer wrong?
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by godswearhats »

That's incorrect. The cap for each wound is the number of wounds on the model. In the case of rank and file models with 1 wound, the Multiple Wounds special rule is useless - 3 wounds inflicted would remain 3 wounds.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Shandrakor »

I believe it works the way WizzyWarlock says, but the wording is spotty so it's probably just one of thus rules you'd coin toss for how it works.

The whole distributing the wounds to models individually bit is what makes everything spotty and needs clarification from GW.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Pusherrman »

That's incorrect. The cap for each wound is the number of wounds on the model. In the case of rank and file models with 1 wound, the Multiple Wounds special rule is useless - 3 wounds inflicted would remain 3 wounds.
Fair enough. Just to make sure I got it: If a model with Multiple Wounds (2) and Flaming attacks does three wounds to a treekin unit you'd only remove three treekins?
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Yes, because while you'd normally do 4 wounds each time, it becomes 3 due to that being the W characteristic on the Treekin profile.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Naggie »

WizzyWarlock wrote:Flammable: If a model with the Flammable rule suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a Flaming Attack, each unsaved wound is doubled.
Note that it says "model", not "unit". So every model that takes one wound takes an additional wound. If the model only has one wound, then the extra wound is ignored. Hence, I'd say first wound makes two wounds on the Treekin. Second wound makes two more wounds on the same treekin (the fourth one is ignored), and the third wound hits a new model and makes two wounds there.

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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Pusherrman »

Note that it says "model", not "unit". So every model that takes one wound takes an additional wound. If the model only has one wound, then the extra wound is ignored. Hence, I'd say first wound makes two wounds on the Treekin. Second wound makes two more wounds on the same treekin (the fourth one is ignored), and the third wound hits a new model and makes two wounds there.
This makes sense too. Turning out to be a real head scratcher this one :confused:
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by godswearhats »

There was a huge thread on warseer about this recently. I hate to just say "no you're wrong" but in this case I'm gonna :-)

Please see my answer above as the correct one. When I'm at my computer again I'll give a definitive example with quotes from the rule book.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by LandonElf »

Heres an interesting scenario to help both sides think around the problem.

A dwarf cannon with the flaming rune shoot a unit of 6 Treekin. The canon bounce hits both ranks. The first Treekin is successfully wounded, and the dwarf player rolls a 6 on the multi wound. The second rank is also successfully wounded, and another 6 is rolled on the multiple wounds.

If you play that "all wounds are accounted for", then that unit of Treekin would take 24 wounds (as both 6's double into 12 wounds due to flammable) and thus be wiped out.

If you play that "models can only receive wounds equal to their profile, and additional wounds are discounted" then the two Treekin would each take 3 wounds, and only 2 treekin would die.

I feel like the second way is most correct, otherwise a single canon shot could wipe out entire units of multiwound models.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by godswearhats »

“If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit.
This method is also applied if such a unit is attacked by a spell or weapon that causes a hit on every model in the unit.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Warhammer: Rulebook (Interactive Edition).” Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks. https://itun.es/us/WK-LU.l
Here are some scenarios, all involving a unit of 6 Treekin who always fail their armor and ward saves (so that I can ignore that part for clarity):

1) hit by a flaming breath weapon
2) hit by a flaming template that does Multiple Wounds (D3).
3) hit by 10 flaming arrows

1) Every model in the unit suffers a hit. Of those 6 hits, let's say you're unlucky 4 are wounded. Each of those models suffers 1 wound, which is multiplied to 2 due to the Flammable rule. The unit thus suffers 8 wounds, and you remove two models, and mark two wounds on another model.

2) Every model in the unit suffers a hit. Of those 6 hits, let's say 4 are wounded (again, bad luck). Each of these wounds becomes D3 wounds from the Multiple Wounds(D3) rule. Let's say your opponent rolls 1, 1, 2, 3. Each of those are doubled due to Flammable, and so become 2, 2, 4, 6. However, because the Treekin only have 3 wounds, these rolls are capped at 3 and so these actually become 2, 2, 3, 3. You add this up to 10, and then you remove 3 Treekin and mark 1 wound on a third.

3) Let's say that 10 flaming arrows hit the Treekin, and 5 of them wound. These 5 wounds become 10 wounds due to Flammable, and you remove 3 Treekin and mark 1 wound on another. If all 10 of them wound, these are dispersed evenly throughout the unit, so every Treekin would be wounded once, and 4 more Treekin would be wounded again. This would result in 6 wounds multiplying to 12, and 4 wounds only doing 1 more wound because the Treekin cannot suffer more than 3 wounds. You then add those up to 16, and remove 5 Treekin and mark 1 wound on the last remaining Treekin.

I know it's complicated, but it's not actually ambiguous.

Hope this helps,
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Mollesvinet »

Backing up GWH on this one. This is the only way to play it as i see it
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by SquidBoy »

I'm backing up GWH mainly because it makes faster gameplay. It's easier and more in the essence of WHFB to see the unit as a pool of wounds.
A dwarf cannon with the flaming rune [...] If you play that "all wounds are accounted for", then that unit of Treekin would take 24 wounds (as both 6's double into 12 wounds due to flammable) and thus be wiped out.
No, a cannon or a bolt shot still only affects models in the line of fire, all extra wounds would be discarded.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by Gwill_of_the_Woods »

I agree if the line of the shot hits a specific model/line of models, then it affects that model/models only. That's how I'd play it, rather than distribute it across the whole unit.
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Re: Flaming attacks

Post by NonnoSte »

I always played the other way around and no one really complained.
Except for how OP treekins are.

Then I usually laugh at them and point out how they ABs are OP compared to ours and the complaint pretty much ends.
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