Double flee question

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Guardian of Farthing Wood
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Double flee question

Post by Guardian of Farthing Wood »

So, i'm relatively new to Warhammer in 8th and I am learning things as I go. I keep reading about double fleeing, which if i understand correctly is setting up 2 units, one in front of the other. When the first is charged, it flees through the second and so cannot be caught. If the charger redirects to the second unit this can also flee, hopefully through the first, so again the charge fails. What I don't understand however is why the second unit does not have to take a panic test for the first fleeing through it, or is this just a given. I've never seen it mentioned in any of the explanations for double fleeing I have read.
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Mollesvinet
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Mollesvinet »

To use your own words, its just a given. Its useful to make sure the second unit is within range of he BSB and possibly the general, as a failed panic test will usually open up for redirection into the very units you were trying to protect.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Guardian of Farthing Wood »

Mollesvinet, thanks. It had never occured to me before that it would be required, then I noticed in the BRB section about fleeing a test was required.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Bogi »

Im not sure a unit that is fleeing is subject to panic. Dont have brb with me... still i never took a panic test when double fleeing and no opponent picked up on it so either a lot of people have been playing it wrong or no panic.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Mollesvinet »

Units that are already fleeing doesn't take panic tests. But when the first unit flees through the second unit on the first charge reaction, thats when the second unit has to take the panic test. It's on page 25 of the BRB.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Bogi »

Yeah I just read the book and no panic test is taken. Simply if a unit is already fleeing then it does not take panic tests. Just like if in combat. But yes second re-director must test when the first unit flees through it.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Revelen »

Forgive me for bumping an old, dead thread. I was about to post a double flee question thread, and it made more sense to do it here.

I understand how to set it up, how to do it, how it works, but I've never really grasped why. The explanation for it which I always see/hear, is that it causes the opponent to waste his movement turn. I don't understand how tricking someone into wasting a movement turn on one unit is worth losing movement control over two of your units, plus introducing the (albeit slight) potential really-badness of non-rallying troops for two (or more!) units. I must be missing something?

I can see it as a fortuitous way to save some troops from a charge, if you happen to be set-up right, but again, if you had the chance to set your units up for a double-flee to save them from the charge, why didn't you just move them elsewhere and avoid the fleeing altogether? Especially since the next turn you likely have to do it all again, or actually accept the charge (hopefully in a more supported position.)

...I just don't understaaaaaaand!

Thanks for any clarification,
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Slobber »

I'm perhaps not he best to answer this but I'll give it a go. Sometimes it's better for you to charge then to receive the charge, so it can be used there for sure. Also fast cavalry can rally and move like normal, so in theory you can tie up a big, high cost killer unit for a few turns letting you go after other softer units.

Hope this helps!

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Re: Double flee question

Post by WizzyWarlock »

Revelen wrote:I understand how to set it up, how to do it, how it works, but I've never really grasped why. The explanation for it which I always see/hear, is that it causes the opponent to waste his movement turn. I don't understand how tricking someone into wasting a movement turn on one unit is worth losing movement control over two of your units, plus introducing the (albeit slight) potential really-badness of non-rallying troops for two (or more!) units. I must be missing something?
It's for dealing with those units that you have no other answer for - so you just try and tie them up for as long as you can, wasting their movement and annoying the hell out of the opponent, as he can't bring his big smashy overpowered death machine into play. Meanwhile, the rest of your army is taking on the parts that you CAN deal with. If you position the double flee right, you can also turn the target unit away from the rest of your units and drag it off to a place the opponent doesn't want it to be. So eventually, he becomes so frustrated he doesn't bother trying anymore or he keeps charging and eventually ends up way out of position.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Mollesvinet »

Also keep in mind that double flee works best in msu style army list or with fast cav.

If you can use 2 glade guard units at 126 points to take out his big death star at 1000+ points, then its a win. Especially if you have 50+ archers in close range of that death star, then you can keep peppering at i with shots at almost no risk.

Of course there is a risk of not rallying, but most of our units always have musicians so the tests should be made at a minimum of LD9. Preferably you should set up the double flees so that they end up near your BSB to reduce the risk even further.

Also note that for this strategy to work well, you need to advance upon your enemy from the start of the game. This will give you space to flee into.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Gwill_of_the_Woods »

Do you still have to take the panic test if the "second unit" (the one that gets fled through), is immune to psychology?

If they don't then you could flee through them with fast cav (who reform automatically) and the forest spirit unit don't bat an eye lid. (Supposing that they do in fact possess eye lids? :p )
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Mollesvinet »

Immune to psychology does make you immune to panic, so you can use forest spirits to flee through and make sure the opponent can't catch you. Just remember that immune to psychology also makes it impossible to declare a flee reaction, so make sure that your forests spirits won't be charged instead.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by WizzyWarlock »

Mollesvinet wrote:Immune to psychology does make you immune to panic, so you can use forest spirits to flee through and make sure the opponent can't catch you. Just remember that immune to psychology also makes it impossible to declare a flee reaction, so make sure that your forests spirits won't be charged instead.
Or let them be charged instead of the other unit. It's something I do sometimes - place your Glade Guard in front of a unit of Dryads, then if charged flee through the Dryads and let them take the charge instead. It's especially good if the Dryads are in a forest at the time. :nod:
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Re: Double flee question

Post by AegonTheConqueror »

If you flee with one unit, they redirect at your other which subsequently flees, can't they still catch the first one?
I'm still trying to understand the advantage of the double flee vs the single flee.

Edit: Oh, they have to hit the second one or its a failed charge. Maybe just answered my own question.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by hutobega »

Yes it's all about the failed charge.. meaning they can ONLY go 6 inches max. My question is... since they redirect can they not try to out role the first fleeing unit is that correct? if so does that also mean that they can no matter what not catch the second unit because the first unit is in the way of their moving to the second unit after it flees? lets say I role 11 inches and I was 4 inches away with my second eagle and the enemy roles 12 inches + 5 inch movement does he catch the second fleeing unit or because I have another eagle who originally fled 8 inches away meaning he's in between my second flee..er and the charging unit? sorry if this is confusing haha
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Re: Double flee question

Post by godswearhats »

Once you choose to redirect, the original fleeing unit is safe. Even if the second fleeing unit flees through the first (pretty common) and the charging unit rolls high enough to get into the first unit, it's no longer a legal charge and so they end up with a failed charge.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by hutobega »

okay. so no matter what is the second unit safe even if the charging unit rolls high enough? i know the charging unit can't move the full distance but i always thought it was remove your unit from the table and then move charging unit.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by WizzyWarlock »

hutobega wrote:okay. so no matter what is the second unit safe even if the charging unit rolls high enough? i know the charging unit can't move the full distance but i always thought it was remove your unit from the table and then move charging unit.
Only on a flee from combat. When you flee from a charge, the unit runs away and then the charging unit works out the charge from the new spot. If he can't charge you because a unit is in the way and he's already redirected, then the charge is failed.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by hutobega »

Thanks wizzy perfect answer!
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Revelen »

Wow. WOW. Holy WOW, guys! Thanks for so much insight. it actually kind of makes sense now. So, would you all recommend attempting this as a go-to for leading big ol' scaries on wild goose chases, or do you think it's more of a las ditch thing, for when you can't just stay away and outrun them?
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Re: Double flee question

Post by WizzyWarlock »

Revelen wrote:Wow. WOW. Holy WOW, guys! Thanks for so much insight. it actually kind of makes sense now. So, would you all recommend attempting this as a go-to for leading big ol' scaries on wild goose chases, or do you think it's more of a las ditch thing, for when you can't just stay away and outrun them?
Out of all my games, I can only remember doing a double flee once and attempting one another a time - it failed, I got all the angles wrong. :crazy:

The one I did do was in a friendly game and it didn't go down well, the other player took 10 minutes out to search the rulebooks to see if it was even legal. In tournaments, I'd probably do it more often, but I tend to have rather tight lists that have a specific role in mind, so I don't really have anything in place that can perform a double flee. I'm thinking of adding in two units of 5 Glade Riders to future lists though, as it seems to work very well for other people. Basically, every high ranked Wood Elf player I've seen has had two small units of Glade Riders or Warhawk Riders to double flee with, so I think it's a tactic we should be looking at using more often. Think about it - you have a target unit that can only stumble forward because of the double flee, while 60+ arrows smash into them every turn. How can that be a bad thing? :nod: :sexy:
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Mollesvinet »

It is definately a tactic everyone playing warhammer should know, especially wood elf players. If used at the correct moment it can be a game changer for sure.

I just want to emphasize that when using this strategy it is very important to shoot off enemy chaff first, especially flyers. Also as i mentioned earlier it is important to move forward during turn 1 and possibly 2, this way you wont flee off the board even if you fail the first rally test.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by valmir »

WizzyWarlock wrote:
hutobega wrote:okay. so no matter what is the second unit safe even if the charging unit rolls high enough? i know the charging unit can't move the full distance but i always thought it was remove your unit from the table and then move charging unit.
Only on a flee from combat. When you flee from a charge, the unit runs away and then the charging unit works out the charge from the new spot. If he can't charge you because a unit is in the way and he's already redirected, then the charge is failed.
This is really the key. Upon returning to Warhammer, it took me a bit of time to realise this: that dice rolls aren't compared at all on a flee reaction. I don't know if this was a mechanic that changed with 8th, or I just remembered the rules wrong. In any case, I've had a fair few units of GR cut down when they've attempted to flee. Something that wouldn't have happened with a double flee.

Given that I'm playing a fast cav heavy army, which simply doesn't have answers for certain common units (Phoenix Guard...), the double flee is becoming an absolutely necessary tool in examining how I'm going to deal with my opponent's army.
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Re: Double flee question

Post by Revelen »

I really have nothing to contribute, but since I sparked this amazingly helpful conversation with my, "wait, huh, whaaaa?" style questions, let me just pop in once again to thank y'all for your helpfulness!
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