Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

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Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby deneris » 12 Jul 2011, 03:56

Played Skaven today, and charged a screaming bell with a grey seer mounted above. Though I hit the bell successfully (due to randomizing hits), the skaven player argued that the bell would use the general's leadership, and his modified leadership of 10 at that.

How on earth does the spirit sword work in eighth? I couldn't find anything in the FAQs about it.

Moved to the Pool of Enlightenment ~ Beithir
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Silver » 12 Jul 2011, 07:32

Inspiring Presence is for Leadership test only, no?
The sword isn't a Leadership Test as described in the rules.
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby deneris » 12 Jul 2011, 07:44

Ah, you'd think. The fact that it's not a Leadership Test (in explicit terms) should mean the seer doesn't benefit from the Strength In Numbers rule, so even it uses the Seer's leadership instead of its own (ie, 7 instead of 0) it wouldn't be 10.

However, the section on Inspiring Presence simply says that all friendly units within 12" use his Leadership instead of their own (no wordings about test, or applications thereof)... so without an FAQ, it's not entirely clear it tests on 0 or not.

Clear as mud, eh?
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Shandrakor » 12 Jul 2011, 08:15

Actually, you said it yourself, Inspiring Presence nowhere states that it is only used on Leadership Tests. That's a 7th edition rule you're hanging up on. In 8th edition, units within 12" of the General get to use his Leadership for anything, even modified Leadership. A few people use this to exploit the Standard of Discipline to make their General effectively +1 Leadership to his Leadership bubble. This works both ways obviously, so if someone's General has Doom and Darkness cast on them, their Leadership bubble is at -3.

As far as the Spirit Sword goes, well, it works off of Leadership. Sure it doesn't make mention of Leadership testing, but that doesn't matter with the new Inspiring Presence rule. On the other hand, the Skaven rule Strength in Numbers specifically states the bonus to Leadership only works on Leadership tests, which the Spirit Sword is not. Thus, they can use the Grey Seer's Leadership, just not the bonus from Strength in Numbers.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby deneris » 12 Jul 2011, 08:21

Are there any technicalities to exploit given that the statistic is 0... IE, is it even able to 'borrow' the Ld from the general..?
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Shandrakor » 12 Jul 2011, 09:53

Well, to answer your question, here's a few comments from the Skaven FAQ.

Skaven FAQ wrote:Q. What is the Leadership value of a Screaming Bell/Plague
Furnace? (p43 & p48)
A. Ld 0.

Skaven FAQ wrote:Q. Is a Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace treated as separate units from
the unit that is pushing it for things that affect the closest target or that
affect all units within a certain range? (p43 & p48)
A. Yes.

Skaven FAQ wrote:Q. If the rider is killed, what happens to the Bell/Furnace? (p43 &
p48)
A. It continues to function normally inside its unit. The only
difference is that all ranged attacks against it will hit the
Bell/Furnace – no need to randomise.


So basically, if you hit the Screaming Bell with the Spirit Sword, it's Leadership 0, you auto-Wound it, it gets its Ward Save, and if any Wounds get through it compares Leadership plus D6 compared to your Leadership plus D6 and takes the rest of the Wounds it loses by without saves. This is fairly effective against it, and semi-effective against the Skaven in general since the best Leadership they're likely to have is a 7 on their General.

Against the Grey Seer, you roll off against his Leadership 7 unless he has the Standard of Discipline or something.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby deneris » 12 Jul 2011, 10:07

With regards to the first point, I understand that the FAQ declares it as 0 (countering all those who claimed it was '-', not 0)... But even if its leadership is 0, what specifically prevents it from using the general's Inspiring Presence (IE, 7)?
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby unicorn » 12 Jul 2011, 14:11

deneris wrote:But even if its leadership is 0, what specifically prevents it from using the general's Inspiring Presence (IE, 7)?

Nothing :(
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby deneris » 12 Jul 2011, 19:46

Sigh.

The 1050 point screaming bell drat star marches on, it seems.

I'll have to send Mat Ward a Christmas card.
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Caitsidhe » 12 Jul 2011, 19:58

Use my Wild Rider (supercharged with characters and Beast) to kill the Bell. You can do it in one turn, overrun, and swing around. There usually isn't anything behind the bell.
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby deneris » 12 Jul 2011, 21:38

Do you have a link? I tried using 7 riders and a WR noble with strength potion and helm of the hunt, but they just bounced off him.
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Caitsidhe » 12 Jul 2011, 22:08

deneris wrote:Do you have a link? I tried using 7 riders and a WR noble with strength potion and helm of the hunt, but they just bounced off him.


No... sadly that won't cut it. When I say my "supercharged" Wild Riders, I'm talking about a unit of Wild Riders with 3-4 Nobles in it, a Banner of Eternal Flame, and a Beastweaver w/Power Scroll so she can cast Horror on command. I often put a Spellweaver with Life in the unit too (although not necessary for the trick). The idea is to hit the Bell (or whatever really) dead on so the characters are against the bell and not the rats. They will be hitting with STR-8 (or more if Wissans was also cast)... and making six attacks per Noble. I can assure you... it blows the bell apart.
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby deneris » 12 Jul 2011, 22:50

Do you find you can comfortably fit all this in a 2000 point list?
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Caitsidhe » 13 Jul 2011, 03:10

deneris wrote:Do you find you can comfortably fit all this in a 2000 point list?


The supercharged Wild Riders? No. I prefer them at 3K, can squeeze them in at 2500pts. I haven' attempted an even smaller 2K version but I suppose it is possible.
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Aerith » 04 Aug 2011, 23:39

i have a question on the spirit sword, nothing to do with inspiring presence though..... sorry, im confused as to how it deals with regen??? i charged in and slapped a hydra in the face scored wound failed armour and regen and tn i ld10+ d6 roll of 5 on his ass & he pulled regen on me..... it does clearly state no armour or ward saves.... not no regen, bye bye alter highborn lord??? have i missed something or is the spirit sword bn nerfed by 8th edition monsters like hellpit/hydra regen????

cheers.x
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Shandrakor » 05 Aug 2011, 00:08

Aerith wrote:i have a question on the spirit sword, nothing to do with inspiring presence though..... sorry, im confused as to how it deals with regen??? i charged in and slapped a hydra in the face scored wound failed armour and regen and tn i ld10+ d6 roll of 5 on his ass & he pulled regen on me..... it does clearly state no armour or ward saves.... not no regen, bye bye alter highborn lord??? have i missed something or is the spirit sword bn nerfed by 8th edition monsters like hellpit/hydra regen????

cheers.x

It's never gotten rid of Regeneration Saves. So yes, the Hydra can regenerate against those Wounds. Another reason the Spirit Sword rules are a bit out-dated on effectiveness.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby tifus » 05 Aug 2011, 01:33

In 8ed, Regen is just a sort of ward save, and you lose it on fire (like forest spirit ward save we lose on magical attack)
And, if it can help you, in the french army book, it's "with no save of any sort".
Just a fool...
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby popisdead » 05 Aug 2011, 18:12

deneris wrote:The 1050 point screaming bell drat star marches on, it seems.


What is wrong with a generic Treeman punching the Grey Seer in the face for a couple turns and then grinding the unit down for the rest of the game? What is in this drat start unit that auto-kills Treeman (and just dispel Cracks Call so no need to make that your reply).
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby deneris » 06 Aug 2011, 04:29

a seer with a 4+ ward save and healing potion, a handful of warpstone tokens to get his magic off, a screaming bell that casts all sorts of nasty stuff, a horde of storm vermin providing SCR, 2 rat ogres holding the bell and the fact that the bell randomizes hits away from the Grey Seer.

My money's not on the treeman in that fight.
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Shandrakor » 06 Aug 2011, 18:23

deneris wrote:a seer with a 4+ ward save and healing potion, a handful of warpstone tokens to get his magic off, a screaming bell that casts all sorts of nasty stuff, a horde of storm vermin providing SCR, 2 rat ogres holding the bell and the fact that the bell randomizes hits away from the Grey Seer.

My money's not on the treeman in that fight.

Yeah, the Treeman probably won't win that fight, but at the same time, if he doesn't get charged, he probably won't die either if you line him up nicely against the Bell itself. (Unless they roll 13 on the ring the bell chart...)

Also of note, you only randomize hits against the Grey Seer when shooting at the Bell, not in close combat.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby popisdead » 08 Aug 2011, 17:14

Oops, I didn't know it was Storm Vermin. I've had repeat success when it was just Grey Seers on a bell in Clan Rats. Even with Ward Saves, Warpstone tokens, I never lost my Treeman.

What is SCR? Two rat ogres holding the bell?
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Re: Spirt Sword in 8th — subject to inspiring presence?

Postby Benigno » 09 Aug 2011, 12:51

Static Combat Resolution.
The forest has many eyes as leaves.
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