Wizard in Second Rank?

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Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby inyart » 14 Jun 2011, 21:02

So I have read the rulebooks and numerous posts on this site where we can place a wizard in the second rank (ie. Eternal Guard) if we have a BSB, General and a full command setup in the front rank. My question is if the wizard is in the second rank can they cast line of sight spells? I was told they could not because if it is true line of sight the front rank would get in the way.... I could not find anywhere clarifying this issue... Any ideas?

Thanks,

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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby Beithir Seun » 14 Jun 2011, 21:08

TLoS makes things like this difficult, because there's no longer a black-and-white answer. Friendly models block LoS, but if the Wizard model can "physically" see past them then he has LoS and can therefore see for the purpose of casting spells as far as I'm aware. I could very easily be wrong, however.
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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby Hillbilly Carl » 14 Jun 2011, 21:28

Bretonnian damsels can cast spells as normal from the second rank of the lance formation, it says so in the bretonnian FAQ and missile units can shoot in two ranks so I'm going to say that the second rank has regular line of sight but if someone can find something in the rulebook or FAQ that says differently then I will stand corrected.
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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby Shandrakor » 14 Jun 2011, 22:37

Hillbilly Carl wrote:Bretonnian damsels can cast spells as normal from the second rank of the lance formation, it says so in the bretonnian FAQ and missile units can shoot in two ranks so I'm going to say that the second rank has regular line of sight but if someone can find something in the rulebook or FAQ that says differently then I will stand corrected.

Yeah it's mostly this because spells use the rules for "Resolving Unusual Attacks" for doing damage and it's under the shooting section of the book. Under that same section it says models in the second rank use the model directly in front of them in the first rank for determining line of sight, arc, etc. So, to take that a step further, magic users should follow the same guidelines.
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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby inyart » 15 Jun 2011, 03:05

Shandrakor wrote:
Hillbilly Carl wrote:Bretonnian damsels can cast spells as normal from the second rank of the lance formation, it says so in the bretonnian FAQ and missile units can shoot in two ranks so I'm going to say that the second rank has regular line of sight but if someone can find something in the rulebook or FAQ that says differently then I will stand corrected.

Yeah it's mostly this because spells use the rules for "Resolving Unusual Attacks" for doing damage and it's under the shooting section of the book. Under that same section it says models in the second rank use the model directly in front of them in the first rank for determining line of sight, arc, etc. So, to take that a step further, magic users should follow the same guidelines.



I understand where the above would apply to shooting because the second rank in theory is watching the arrows from the front rank and hence can follow that same direction to draw line of sight. It does not say they have line of sight to an enemy. Also, since that is the case the wizard is not following or watching anyone in the front rank cast spells.

So I am not sure if we will have a true answer for this because multiple players that I have played with said I could not draw line of sight from the second rank while casting direct damage. I can see both sides to this and I do not want to do something that is looked down upon as "cheesy" which is why I am trying to see if we can actually draw line of sight legally and have it backed up by the rulebook.

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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby Shandrakor » 15 Jun 2011, 04:11

inyart wrote:I understand where the above would apply to shooting because the second rank in theory is watching the arrows from the front rank and hence can follow that same direction to draw line of sight. It does not say they have line of sight to an enemy. Also, since that is the case the wizard is not following or watching anyone in the front rank cast spells.

So I am not sure if we will have a true answer for this because multiple players that I have played with said I could not draw line of sight from the second rank while casting direct damage. I can see both sides to this and I do not want to do something that is looked down upon as "cheesy" which is why I am trying to see if we can actually draw line of sight legally and have it backed up by the rulebook.

Actually, what it says for shooting with the second rank is that the front rank guys bend a knee for the second rank guys which would work just as well for Wizards in the second rank. Beyond that, you don't even need to have line of sight to cast Direct Damage spells, you just need Forward Arc. The only spells that actually specifically need line of sight are magic missiles and spells that specifically call for it in their spell description.

Another thing is that the only spells that do require line of sight, magic missiles, specifically say:
BRB pg 31 wrote:Accordingly, a Wizard can only cast a magic missile at a target that lies within his forward arc and to which he can trace line of sight (just as if the Wizard was firing a missile weapon).

Note that (just as if the Wizard was firing a missile weapon) part. This further enforces the idea that the front rank bends a knee for the Wizard, just as in shooting, as I already mentioned.

To go one step further, the majority of our Wizards are super tall anyways and easily tower over the Glade or Eternal Guard you're putting them in. Or at least the tall Wizard with the horns or the two floaty Wizardess' do from what I recall. This makes it easy to use the True Line of Sight argument if all else fails...

These 3:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... GameStyle=
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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby The Shadow Sentinel » 15 Jun 2011, 05:53

I cant quote an exact rule on this, its more sort of a read between the lines thing but if all wizards could cast from the second rank of a unit it would sort of make the Guardians special rule for Slann Mage-Priests moot? (that's the rule that allows them to cast spells when in the second rank of a unit of Temple Guard)

Granted that army book came out before the current rulebook edition but there has been no FAQ about it nor have I seen complaints on Lizardmen forums saying that their rule is now useless.
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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby Shandrakor » 15 Jun 2011, 07:18

The Shadow Sentinel wrote:I cant quote an exact rule on this, its more sort of a read between the lines thing but if all wizards could cast from the second rank of a unit it would sort of make the Guardians special rule for Slann Mage-Priests moot? (that's the rule that allows them to cast spells when in the second rank of a unit of Temple Guard)

Granted that army book came out before the current rulebook edition but there has been no FAQ about it nor have I seen complaints on Lizardmen forums saying that their rule is now useless.

It doesn't make that rule moot at all. You don't have to have a single character in the unit with the Slaan to let the Slaan be in the second rank. For everyone else you have to have multiple characters in the same unit to bump a character to the second rank. You pay for what you get. Not to mention if a character or unit champion dies you bump the characters in the second rank to the first rank as normal to fill the gap. It's by no means foolproof, it's just a nice side benefit of taking so many characters in the same unit.
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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby unicorn » 15 Jun 2011, 10:38

He can be in 2nd rank and cast anything, using the TLOS and forward arc of the model in front of him.
Why?

brb 39 wrote:Models in the second rank can use the line of sight and forward arc of the model directly in front of them for the purposes of all shooting attacks (including stand and shoot reactions).

But hey, Unicorn, calm down, this rule clearly states it is applied on shootign attacks only!
brb 31 wrote:Wizard can only cast a magic missile at a target that lies within his forward arc and to which he can trace line of sight (just as if the wizard was firing a missile weapon).


So much about this topic in BRB terms.
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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby Hillbilly Carl » 15 Jun 2011, 15:25

Not to mention if a character or unit champion dies you bump the characters in the second rank to the first rank as normal to fill the gap. It's by no means foolproof, it's just a nice side benefit of taking so many characters in the same unit.


Is there actually a rule that says you must bump the model forward? I've read through the rulebook and I can't actually find anything that says that, in fact I'm not sure you would be allowed to other than by doing a reform.

I'd probably do it anyway but I thought it was interesting that there wasn't any mention of that in the rules and people inclined to play by the letter of the law would probably use that to their advantage.
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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby popisdead » 15 Jun 2011, 17:54

Hillbilly Carl wrote:Is there actually a rule that says you must bump the model forward?


There is an update for characters in the BRB FAQ that they must be moved forward when a possible spot opens for them.
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Re: Wizard in Second Rank?

Postby The Shadow Sentinel » 15 Jun 2011, 18:49

It doesn't make that rule moot at all. You don't have to have a single character in the unit with the Slaan to let the Slaan be in the second rank. For everyone else you have to have multiple characters in the same unit to bump a character to the second rank. You pay for what you get. Not to mention if a character or unit champion dies you bump the characters in the second rank to the first rank as normal to fill the gap. It's by no means foolproof, it's just a nice side benefit of taking so many characters in the same unit.


I was not suggesting that characters (wizards included) could not be put in the second rank, what I was talking about is the part of the rule that makes special provisions for casting spells and line of sight when in the second rank even though the wizard is not a large target.
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