simple Qs

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simple Qs

Postby Deepwood » 17 May 2011, 10:42

Hi all

Some rules Qs that bothered me in my last game and to which I cannot immediately find a satisfactory answer - would appreciate everyone's thoughts...! Thanks :)

1) I charge a unit. It declares "flee". I roll my charge distance = 2D6 + movement. The fleeing unit rolls it's flee distance - this is just 2D6 (unless swiftstride) right? So if 2D6+M > distance btwn units + their 2D6, I catch and destroy?

2) Loremaster - if I have a loremaster, and other wizards using the same lore, the rule about not having two wizards knowing the same spells is irrelevant? Since any spell the other wizards roll will already be known by the loremaster...? This came up with O&G goblin grt shaman on a big big spider who is a lawmaster when given the catcherwebshrine - plus the army continaed two further low level NG shamans also choosing from "Speels of the Little Waagh!"

Thanks again
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Kulgan86 » 17 May 2011, 11:21

1) Is correct

2) I believe also to be correct. I think Loremaster is specified as an exception to the rule you mentionned. It's in the end of BRB right before the Lores of Magic.
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Kertilien » 17 May 2011, 12:27

I don't believe the first one is correct. A charging unit destroys a fleeing unit when it makes contact with it (BRB page 23 - Charging a Fleeing Enemy), so you actually need to complete the charge. Keep in mind that when a unit that makes a Flee! charge reaction, it flees immediately; the unit should already have been turned around and moved before you get to rolling charge distance and moving chargers. When the fleeing unit pivots to face away from your unit, the distance between them will often increase. If their flee move should happen to take them through impassable terrain or another unit, the charge may be difficult or impossible to complete, triggering a failed charge (if you don't redirect) and allowing the unit to escape. If you do catch up and destroy them, it's the final position (after fleeing) that would be used for panic tests in nearby units.
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Deepwood » 17 May 2011, 12:48

Kertilien -

In my example, the 2D6 +movement is greater than distance between units + their flee roll of 2D6. i.e. in the example given, the charging unit contacts the flee-ing unit. Thus, IMHO, they are destroyed.

My query was more directed at whether the flee-ing unit rolled 2d6 and added their movement value (which is what the charging unit are doing) but from the BRB, I don't think they do - making it an inherent disadvantage to flee if the chargers are relatively close (appropriately, IMHO again). This is distinct from a unit breaking from combat where both players roll 2d6, with movement values kept out of it (I'm obviously assuming no relevant units have swiftstride).

I kept things like terrain / panic in other units out of it for simplicity

I don't believe pivoting a unit away from the chargers around its central point should ever increase the distance between them and the chargers - that's wouldn't be a pivot, it would be a move!

If 2d6 + movement is equal to distance between units + their flee roll, I would say they are still destroyed - as you still make (exact) contact
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Shandrakor » 17 May 2011, 19:03

Yes, when rolling to flee from a charge, you only roll the 2d6 or 3d6 and drop the lowest for Swiftstride.

You can, however, EASILY make the gap between units much bigger if the unit was being charged in the flank. Especially small, but wide units like our Glade Guard usually are. Rotating a 20 man unit of Glade Guard that was in 2 ranks is going to make a giant gap if it was charged in the flank. Oh and yes, any reform is considered movement, but so is any flee reaction...

As for the Loremaster bit, read page 490 of the BRB. It explains that if special rules provide what spells are chosen then it doesn't pertain to other wizard's rolls for what spell selection they can take on duplicates.
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Deepwood » 17 May 2011, 21:53

Thanks Shandrakor

I was envisaging a straight line charge situation, though I realize I didn't specify, and entirely take your point re: flank charges and pivots!
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Re: simple Qs

Postby unicorn » 18 May 2011, 19:14

Deepwood wrote:1) I charge a unit. It declares "flee". I roll my charge distance = 2D6 + movement. The fleeing unit rolls it's flee distance - this is just 2D6 (unless swiftstride) right?

Right
So if 2D6+M > distance btwn units + their 2D6, I catch and destroy?

No. They turn. They move. You measure the distance. And you may find that it often is not "2D6+M > distance btwn units + their 2D6."
And after you measure, you need to move into BtB. Now no distance plays role, but you need to do it with one wheel, and that one is max 90°. If you manage this, you destroy them...

2) Loremaster - if I have a loremaster, and other wizards using the same lore, the rule about not having two wizards knowing the same spells is irrelevant?

No. As the rule clearly states it counts only for wizards who roll for their spells.
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Kertilien » 18 May 2011, 23:11

Yes, that's correct.

Another odd situation that could increase the distance between the fleeing and pursuing units would be moving through dangerous terrain. Because the fleeing unit takes casualties from the back, losing enough models to remove one or more ranks would shrink them away from the charging unit.
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Deepwood » 19 May 2011, 13:23

Thanks Unicorn

You make clear the underlying issue - that it is not a mathematical sum of dice rolls / modifers etc. but a matter of actually doing the moving then measuring to see if BtB contact is achieved.

I suppose my desire for the "theoretical" answer in maths terms comes from a very specific situation - here it is:

I charge a lvl4 wizard on a pegasus with my orc horde. They are 3" apart at the time. He declares flee. I roll 4 on the charge distance = 4+4 movement = 8inches. He rolls 2D6 and gets 5 inches. So he will be 8" from the orcs after the move (remember, the pegasus is on a square base and the units are directly facing each other, no funny angles or terrain involved). And I will pursue 8" with the orcs. So he'll be destroyed.

BUT, as I understand unicorn's comments, he will only be destroyed if, instead of "doing the math" we make the moves and then find my orcs are able to reach BtB contact.

Naturally, any player will want their lvl 4 mage to escape.... so player have a tendency to nudge the distance in their favour. So, personally, I prefer the math, as it doesn't allow that. I think you just end up D6-ing to decide the close call of whether BtB contact occurs, or somesuch

I should point out I am not being bitter here - my opponent agreed that I destroyed the wizard! I simply wanted to clarify the rules.
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Caitsidhe » 19 May 2011, 13:35

Where we play it is based on math, pure and simple. If the math indicates death, there is no reason to move the destroyed model. You just take it off the table. If the math adds up to "CAUGHT" the issue is resolved.
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Deepwood » 19 May 2011, 13:49

...yep, that's my preferred way of doing it, and avoids disputes on fractions of inches....!
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Re: simple Qs

Postby herenvardo » 19 May 2011, 14:50

Keep in mind that math can only be as exact as the input data is, and measurements are never exact. So if the measurement yields 3", nudging or not, it's fair to roll a die: measurement imprecission turns the situation into a true "close-call".

However, if the measurement was clearly less than 3" (beyond reasonable error allowance) and the mage still manages to "nudge" away, then that player is plainly cheating.

Albert Einstein wrote:As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Deepwood » 19 May 2011, 15:05

Lovely Einstein quote there!

We measured and agreed on the distance between the two before either of us rolled dice for charge distance / flee distance, so we felt it was fair, though I do entirely see your point....!
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Kertilien » 20 May 2011, 01:24

Deepwood wrote:I charge a lvl4 wizard on a pegasus with my orc horde. They are 3" apart at the time. He declares flee. I roll 4 on the charge distance = 4+4 movement = 8inches. He rolls 2D6 and gets 5 inches. So he will be 8" from the orcs after the move (remember, the pegasus is on a square base and the units are directly facing each other, no funny angles or terrain involved). And I will pursue 8" with the orcs. So he'll be destroyed.


Yes, though flyers get swiftstride automatically, so the wizard would get to the extra die.

Caitsidhe wrote:Where we play it is based on math, pure and simple. If the math indicates death, there is no reason to move the destroyed model. You just take it off the table. If the math adds up to "CAUGHT" the issue is resolved.


While I prefer using math where possible, you're moving out of turn order when you work charges out like this. The enemy unit interrupts your charge declarations to make its flee move, but you don't get to roll your charge distance until after all charges have been declares. Even if you don't have to worry about panic tests triggered by the enemy's destruction, finding out whether or not a charge was successful before declaring your remaining charges would give you an unfair advantage. Likewise, you would hinder yourself if you declared all your charges before determining how far the fleeing enemy will go.

If you want to apply math here, you should measure and clearly state the charge distance before declaring the charge. If a 3" charge distance, undisputed by your opponent, and a 5" flee move later add up to 9", you can call your opponent out on moving too far and insist that the unit be moved back.
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Re: simple Qs

Postby unicorn » 20 May 2011, 07:41

Deepwood wrote:BUT, as I understand unicorn's comments, he will only be destroyed if, instead of "doing the math" we make the moves and then find my orcs are able to reach BtB contact.

Naturally, any player will want their lvl 4 mage to escape.... so player have a tendency to nudge the distance in their favour. So, personally, I prefer the math, as it doesn't allow that. I think you just end up D6-ing to decide the close call of whether BtB contact occurs, or somesuch

You still need to make the moves, you can not just declare him destroyed. Remember how new rules works: he flee. You charge. You make a contact. You maximize, close the doors. He is dstroyed. You have option to reform, if you pass the Ld.

As you can see, you can never ever go with math only. You need to make the moves to see where you will end up. Not like in 7th ed, where only measuring the charging unit matters-
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Re: simple Qs

Postby Deepwood » 20 May 2011, 09:02

Thanks everyone, that's actually very helpful :)
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