Noble + treekin?

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Noble + treekin?

Postby Bael » 11 May 2011, 00:11

I haven't played warhammer for a while and haven't got the updated rulebook so I'm very very rusty on the rules side of things so this might be a silly question. I was reading a wood elf tactics blog and it was suggested that a noble with the wild rider kindred and the crown of command should be put into a treekin unit to make them stubborn. As far as I know, although they would both be forest spirits, this is impossible as treekin are monstrous infantry and the noble isn't. Confirmation of this would be nice, however, as the rest of the tactica seemed pretty solid and it would be awesome to have a stubborn ld9 treekin unit.
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby Shandrakor » 11 May 2011, 01:09

There's nothing wrong with putting a Wild Rider or Glamourweave kindred character in a unit of Treekin. In fact, quite a few people do do this exact thing.

The only problems with this is that they are on different sized bases and are different unit types. (25x50 or 50x50 for the character and 40x40 for Treekin) What this means is that the character has to be put on the side of the front rank of the unit and doesn't count for ranking up purposes. They also don't get Look Out Sir! protection in such a unit.

There's a few restrictions to this, that perhaps you were thinking of, like mounted characters cannot join skirmishing units and monster (or ridden monster) characters cannot join units, but on the whole, most characters can join most units.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby sirkently » 11 May 2011, 03:55

Adding to Shandrakors answer, the other issue is that the character can't use the make way rule to get into combat. This can actually be a benefit at times, but not good if you have a fighting character.
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby Kulgan86 » 11 May 2011, 09:12

sirkently wrote:Adding to Shandrakors answer, the other issue is that the character can't use the make way rule to get into combat. This can actually be a benefit at times, but not good if you have a fighting character.



This is interesting, where in the BRB do you find this? ( not that I don't believe you )
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby Caitsidhe » 11 May 2011, 12:11

He is quite correct. The only rules we have that affect characters joining units are:

1. Non-Forest Spirit cannot join Forest Spirit unit.
2. Mounted character cannot join Skirmish unit.
3. Flying characters cannot join any unit.

On a side note, if you wanted to keep your "Look Out Sir" you could ride the Stag or put your Unicorn on the bigger base when you are with the Treekin. Being on the same base would regain you that protection.
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby unicorn » 11 May 2011, 12:22

Caitsidhe wrote:On a side note, if you wanted to keep your "Look Out Sir" you could ride the Stag or put your Unicorn on the bigger base when you are with the Treekin. Being on the same base would regain you that protection.

1st point - stag/unicorn are 50x50, treekins are 40x40
2nd point - look out sir is not dependant on the base size at all, and you will not get Look out sir from this
Last edited by unicorn on 11 May 2011, 12:44, edited 1 time in total.
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby sirkently » 11 May 2011, 12:42

Kulgan86 wrote:
sirkently wrote:Adding to Shandrakors answer, the other issue is that the character can't use the make way rule to get into combat. This can actually be a benefit at times, but not good if you have a fighting character.



This is interesting, where in the BRB do you find this? ( not that I don't believe you )


Last line of the Make Way rule. It says that there footprint must be compatible. Meaning the same or a multiple.
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby Caitsidhe » 11 May 2011, 14:08

unicorn wrote:
Caitsidhe wrote:On a side note, if you wanted to keep your "Look Out Sir" you could ride the Stag or put your Unicorn on the bigger base when you are with the Treekin. Being on the same base would regain you that protection.

1st point - stag/unicorn are 50x50, treekins are 40x40
2nd point - look out sir is not dependant on the base size at all, and you will not get Look out sir from this


Hrm, really? Odd. I just accepted it on faith when everyone in my area was playing it that way. It has never been a big issue for me because the character I sometimes put with Treekin is just there to teleport them. After that I don't really care.
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby untravel » 11 May 2011, 15:36

The look out sir is dependent on having the same troop type (Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, etc.), not base size. It's on pages 97 and 99 of the BRB.

On the plus side, a Wild Rider character joined to a Treekin unit would still be relatively protected from regular shooting, since the shots would either be allocated to the Treekin first or (if there are 5 or less) distributed, so you could assign as few hits to the character as possible. The problem of course would be template weapons/spells--but you still would get your Ward Save and/or Magic Resistance.

Anyway, the character doesn't get the look out sir, but I wouldn't think of that as a 'deal breaker'.
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby Caitsidhe » 11 May 2011, 15:39

untravel wrote:The look out sir is dependent on having the same troop type (Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, etc.), not base size. It's on pages 97 and 99 of the BRB.

On the plus side, a Wild Rider character joined to a Treekin unit would still be relatively protected from regular shooting, since the shots would either be allocated to the Treekin first or (if there are 5 or less) distributed, so you could assign as few hits to the character as possible. The problem of course would be template weapons/spells--but you still would get your Ward Save and/or Magic Resistance.

Anyway, the character doesn't get the look out sir, but I wouldn't think of that as a 'deal breaker'.



It isn't a deal breaker for me. My characters are almost always the same troop type as the unit I bunker them in anyway. It is just useful to know about my oversight. There are lots of times I could have killed other people's characters but didn't, assuming they got "Look Out Sir." It is good to know that I've been being way to generous. I don't know where I (and the others in my area) got the notion that it was contingent on base size.
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby Bael » 11 May 2011, 15:47

Awesome, thanks everyone. I'm looking forward to using my ld9 stubborn unit of treekin then :D

It also means I can use my noble riding a great stag conversion (great stag is the bear from the Tsar Boris of Kislev set). Which also means there will be no more complaints about a bear being able to move 18 inches!
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Re: Noble + treekin?

Postby untravel » 12 May 2011, 16:07

It is just useful to know about my oversight. There are lots of times I could have killed other people's characters but didn't, assuming they got "Look Out Sir." It is good to know that I've been being way to generous. I don't know where I (and the others in my area) got the notion that it was contingent on base size.

Oh, it's totally understandable. In the book, there's a lot more discussion about base sizes and units (with diagrams and all that) than those two little sentences about troop type and look out sir. All that 'fine print' can be annoying sometimes--which is why this forum is so great, because we can help each other out with that stuff. I've totally lost count of the number of 'fine print' rules that others on this forum have clarified for me, so I'm glad I can return the favor.

The reason I knew the troop type thing is because of a fun trick I like is using the troop type/look out sir rule to get the 'within 3 inches" look out sir for characters that can't actually join the unit. For example, an Alter Noble getting the 4+ LOS! within 3" of a unit of Dryads (both Infantry), or an Eagle Noble within 3" of some Warhawk Riders (both Monstrous Cavalry). Also handy sometimes--getting a LOS! from a unit of Forest Spirits that the character can't otherwise join (e.g. a mounted BSB near a unit of Wild Riders, Spellweaver on foot next to some Dryads, etc.).

The Alter Noble trick is especially useful, since it makes him a lot more survivable than he otherwise would be in 8th.
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